New AR15 ---- I cant shoot the thing

[rrflyer]

I built up a new AR.

18" WOA 1/7 twist barrel
Troy free float rail
Standard Trigger with JP Springs
Nikon Buckmaster 4.5-14 on a PEPR Mount


I cant get consistent anything with it.

I was shooting some handloads with 69gn SMK's and 75 grain hornady match bullets over 25.3 and 24 grains of varget repectively.

By all accounts the rifle should be a shooter but I couldn't get the thing under 1.5 at 100 and consistency was all over the place. And inch or two either side of center and couldn't get a single decent grouping out of 100 rounds fired.

I even tried single loading for 6 rounds and it was still all over the place.

I was sandbagged front and rear.


So anyone have any ideas for me? I'm a little dissapointed with this thing right now.

Technique is probably a big part of it as I've never shot an AR except in competition and it was all less than 50 yard targets.

 

[HotIce]

Re: New AR15 ---- I cant shoot the thing

Did you try with irons?

 

[ORD]

Re: New AR15 ---- I cant shoot the thing

All things being equal...given the quality of the components used in your build...I would say your problems are optics-related (bad scope...loose mount...etc.).

 

[Sig685]

Re: New AR15 ---- I cant shoot the thing

Maybe you can't reload properly. Or maybe you can't shoot.

Try some Black Hills ammo and also have someone else who can shoot, try out your rifle.

 

[RicosRevenge]

Re: New AR15 ---- I cant shoot the thing

Try some heavy factory loads but I suspect the scope/mount as well.

Definitely try irons as well.

 

[rrflyer]

Re: New AR15 ---- I cant shoot the thing

i dont have a set of irons for it yet.

The scope came from my .308 and was on it for a year and maintained zero all the time. Never had problems with the scope before.

With the .308 i was able to keep it under MOA easily.

The PEPR is supposed to be a decent mount......I guess it could be me and my ammo but I reloaded for the .308 for a while before this with no problems.

I'm gonna break it down tonight and buy some black hills tomorrow and give it a try again........I dunno.....

 

[JacobWilliams]

Re: New AR15 ---- I cant shoot the thing

I had the same problem with mine when I first started shooting it, turned out to be a bad scope, also try cleaning the lands with some copper solvent. When Mine starts shooting inconsistently thats what I have to do and then she runs perfectly.

 

[mdmp5]

Re: New AR15 ---- I cant shoot the thing

I had a Busmaster Varminter that did the same exact thing. No matter which ammo I used, it wouldn't group at all. I never did figure out what the problem was before I traded it in, but the AR that replaced it shoots great. It could be an issue with the barrel that only the manufacturer can sort out. I would give them a call if the Black Hills ain't grouping for you.

 

[rrflyer]

Re: New AR15 ---- I cant shoot the thing

you know the more I think about it the more I think it may be a scope issue.

I'm gonna go borrow one from a buddy tomorrow and see if thats not the problem. Along with some factory ammo that should narrow it down.

...I hope.

In the mean time anybody got a link to semi auto rifle shooting vs bolt action? I've searched but cant come up with anything.

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: New AR15 ---- I cant shoot the thing

Sounds like you got a lemon. Let me do you a favor and take it off your hands for $500. You'll be much happier when it is gone.

 

[rrflyer]

Re: New AR15 ---- I cant shoot the thing

500 for the barrel? Deal...please paypal and I'll overnight it to you ASAP.

 

[trilogymac]

Re: New AR15 ---- I cant shoot the thing

I bought an 18" and 16" WOA barrel late last year. Both 1-7". Built the 18" up did 3 or 4 ladders and changed primers. Did it again. Shot like yours. 1-1/2 to a best of 1-1/4". Sold it, installed the 16" and it shoots consistent .750 with 70 TSX. I will live with that.

If you are confident you built it right, I would change the barrel.

Hope this helps.

Trilogymac

 

[divejay]

Re: New AR15 ---- I cant shoot the thing

have you consider looking at the trigger, i had a similar problem a while back. where i was using the jp springs turn out those springs (yellow ones) suppost to be 3-4lb pulls; there were acualy at 6lb.
change with NM 2stage down to 2.5lb. big difference. im using the lyman digital trigger gauge.
hope this helps

 

[Lineman711]

Re: New AR15 ---- I cant shoot the thing

I agree, check your optics and mounts. I've never loaded heavier than 62 gr bullets for my .223, but I never could get decent groups from Varget. Might try a different powder, although everyone seems to get good accuracy from the heavier bullets with it, just an idea. I never try just one powder and think something's wrong.

 

[match308]

Re: New AR15 ---- I cant shoot the thing

Had the same experience w/ JP Yellow springs. I ow use the yellow JP trigger spring but the hammer spring is the milspec. Seemed to solve te light primer strikes and is a good compromise.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: divejay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">have you consider looking at the trigger, i had a similar problem a while back. where i was using the jp springs turn out those springs (yellow ones) suppost to be 3-4lb pulls; there were acualy at 6lb.
change with NM 2stage down to 2.5lb. big difference. im using the lyman digital trigger gauge.
hope this helps </div></div>

 

[garandman]

Re: New AR15 ---- I cant shoot the thing

Happenned to me once.....loose rings. Drives ya batty till ya figger it out.

All you can do is eliminate 1 variable at a time.

1:7 is a REALLY hard twist - I wouldn't recommend it for 69 gr bullets (yeah, I''m sure to get a buncha peoples heads spinnin' ) That's my experience. Prolly wouldn't shoot less than 80 gr in a 1:7.

The loads you describe work well in my 1:8 WOA barrel.


FTR, my semi guns shoot 0.68 MoA (223 SPR) and 0.50 MoA (LR-308) I dumped my bolt guns, cuz I just don't need more accuracy than taht.

 

[rrflyer]

Re: New AR15 ---- I cant shoot the thing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: garandman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
FTR, my semi guns shoot 0.68 MoA (223 SPR) and 0.50 MoA (LR-308) I dumped my bolt guns, cuz I just don't need more accuracy than taht. </div></div>

Thats the reason I picked this up. New scope and factory ammo tomorrow.

I've been told WOA is really good in regards to there barrels. If one doesn't shoot i've heard they'll replace 'em.

I got the 1/7 so I can shoot the 69 and up which I've been told should be good to go.

Varget seems to be the go to powder for 69 grain and up bullets.

 

[264shooter]

Re: New AR15 ---- I cant shoot the thing

I had a similar problem with one of my AR's. I put a Kreiger AMU 1in8 on it and accuracy was outstanding with BH 77 reman. Trouble was it was short cycling and had a couple of failor to extract.
I replaced the gas tube, gas block and put a heavy duty extractor spring in.
It started to cycle, but tha accuracy when to s*!t.
I was stumped trying to figure it out.
What finally fixed it was I took the heavy duty extractor spring out and replaced it with a new mil spec spring.
It cycles and shoots 1/2 moa again.
Just one little spring for all that headache !

 

[garandman]

Re: New AR15 ---- I cant shoot the thing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rrflyer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[
Varget seems to be the go to powder for 69 grain and up bullets. </div></div>


I use Varget in both my 69 gr 223 and my 168 gr 308 loads.

Keep us posted as to progress.

 

[Mgordon]

Re: New AR15 ---- I cant shoot the thing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rrflyer</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: garandman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
FTR, my semi guns shoot 0.68 MoA (223 SPR) and 0.50 MoA (LR-308) I dumped my bolt guns, cuz I just don't need more accuracy than taht. </div></div>

Thats the reason I picked this up. New scope and factory ammo tomorrow.

I've been told WOA is really good in regards to there barrels. If one doesn't shoot i've heard they'll replace 'em.

I got the 1/7 so I can shoot the 69 and up which I've been told should be good to go.

Varget seems to be the go to powder for 69 grain and up bullets. </div></div>

I had pretty much the exact same problem with another build similar. I paid almost $1200 for an upper that had an 18" SPR WOA barrel and all the goodies. I could not get it to shoot under 1 MOA, I tried factory ammo, hand loads, different scopes, mounts, ect. It just did not shoot as well as I hoped.

I even contacted the company who built it and they told me " You just need to practice more "

Talk about pissing me off. I posted it up on ARFCOM and somebody was very pleased with it, not me.

There are a few things you can do to make them shoot better. I will send you a PM.

Mark

 

[PistonPete]

Re: New AR15 ---- I cant shoot the thing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">By all accounts the rifle should be a shooter but I couldn't get the thing under 1.5 at 100...</div></div>

i would think most shooters of AR-15s would be very happy with 1.5 inch groups at 100 yds. what exactly do yo want ? .005 inch groups ? <span style="font-size: 17pt">NEVER HAPPEN !!</span>

 

[Kells81]

Re: New AR15 ---- I cant shoot the thing

I would bet money if you put a decent trigger in it you would see a bit of improvement. The standard trigger is shit even with JP springs

 

[maxposner]

Re: New AR15 ---- I cant shoot the thing

sometimes, lighter bullets, sometimes different velocities, remove the variables, trigger, scope mount, scope. And then enjoy the challenge, always remember the famous words of the great Jaques Clouseau "this is why I have failed, where others have always succeeded. Because I always accept the Schallange! Don't loose heart, the simple answer could only be years away.

 

[garandman]

Re: New AR15 ---- I cant shoot the thing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Piston Pete</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[

i would think most shooters of AR-15s would be very happy with 1.5 inch groups at 100 yds. what exactly do yo want ? .005 inch groups ? <span style="font-size: 17pt">NEVER HAPPEN !!</span> </div></div>

A scoped AR, with the right loads, SHOULD be capable of 1/2" groups at 100 yards.

His experience IS unacceptable.

 

[264shooter]

Re: New AR15 ---- I cant shoot the thing

"NEVER HAPPEN"

The AR-15 is capable of incredible accuracy when it is properly set up and in the hands of someone who knows how to use it.
This picture is after a new scope was mounted on my CAR (Colt Accurized Rifle) with a new Kreiger AMU 1-8.
Four shots to get a zero @ 100 yards after a couple at 25 yards to get close.
Clean up the target. Then start putting them in a nice little knot.

This is actualy less then 1/2 moa.

NEVER HAPPEN my ass.

 

[shooting4life]

Re: New AR15 ---- I cant shoot the thing

Nice target, I have a jp enterprise 18 inch upper that I can get 1.5 inch groups out of at 100 yards with wolf ammo. I can get 1/2 moa out of it when I am on and usually 3/4 to 1 moa when I am not feeling it (all 5 shot groups). Follow through is very important and have your trigger worked over by bill Springfield. I have a factory trigger worked over by him that is at 4lb and will set off all mil spec stuff.

 

[jwn8552]

Re: New AR15 ---- I cant shoot the thing

I think something is wrong with your equipment, you just need to figure it out. I would make sure everything is tight, use some factory match grade ammo, and try again. I have used WOA barrels, all 1x7's, for years and never had a problem. 69,77 and 80gr "Sierra" all have worked very well.

 

[steve123]

Re: New AR15 ---- I cant shoot the thing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Piston Pete</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">By all accounts the rifle should be a shooter but I couldn't get the thing under 1.5 at 100...</div></div>

i would think most shooters of AR-15s would be very happy with 1.5 inch groups at 100 yds. what exactly do yo want ? .005 inch groups ? <span style="font-size: 17pt">NEVER HAPPEN !!</span> </div></div>

I read a book where the author won small group at 200 yards in a benchrest match with his AR.This was against 6PPC bench rifles!The group was less than 1/4 MOA IIRC.

Steve

 

[rrflyer]

Re: New AR15 ---- I cant shoot the thing

well heres an update. Turns out the barrel nut somehow worked itself loose. You could easily move the barrel about 1/8th an inth rotation by hand and there was some vertical play as well.

Unfortunately I idont have an upper block to clamp things down with yet and I leave town for a few days tomorrow. Hopefully I'll be at the range again end of the week to try things out again.

I have my fingers crossed for better results.

 

[PistonPete]

Re: New AR15 ---- I cant shoot the thing

WoW !! how the parameters change.., i am talking an out of the box average AR-15 type/style rifle/carbine that is made by every Tom,Dick & Henry on the planet.., NOT some souped up super customized, accurized precision rifle !!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">NEVER HAPPEN my ass.</div></div>

right on !! your ass, <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The AR-15 is capable of incredible accuracy when it is <span style="font-size: 17pt"><span style="color: #3333FF">properly set up</span></span></div></div> you see.., you are changing the parameters from the average AR-15 to something that is "properly set up"".

then you throw in ""my CAR (Colt Accurized Rifle)"", hell yes ! a properly "set up", "accurized" "perfectly tuned" rifle will beat any NIB AR-15 from ANY manufacturer.

as i said, <span style="font-size: 20pt"><span style="color: #FF0000">NEVER HAPPEN</span> </span>

stop trying to compare a Volkswagen Beetle to a Lamborghini........, <span style="font-size: 20pt">O</span> forking <span style="font-size: 20pt">K</span> ???????

 

[garandman]

Re: New AR15 ---- I cant shoot the thing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Piston Pete</div><div class="ubbcode-body">WoW !! how the parameters change.., i am talking an out of the box average AR-15 type/style rifle/carbine that is made by every Tom,Dick & Henry on the planet.., NOT some souped up super customized, accurized precision rifle !!

</div></div>


No, YOU are changing the parameters. Were NOT talkin' a bone stock gun, here.

Dude said he has a White Oak barrel, with a free float rail. I have pretty much that exact rifle and it shoots 0.68 MoA, consistently. and better occasionally. The OP's stated experience is NOT acceptable.

READ, dude.

And in his update, he identified the problem - the barrell could literally be moved around in the receiver by hand. DANG suprising he got groups that good.

Step off bro, and save a little of your credibility. Oh, and read my sig line....I'm talkin' about YOU there....

 

[StrikeHold]

Re: New AR15 ---- I cant shoot the thing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Piston Pete</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> you see.., you are changing the parameters from the average AR-15 to something that is "properly set up"".

</div></div>

You don't read too well, I guess. He started out saying he built up and AR. That sounds different than "out of the box".

 

[ARsR4ME]

Re: New AR15 ---- I cant shoot the thing

If you reload then did you crony the rounds? I too haven't hav good luck with varget in the 223. I mostly use h335 with cci450 primers. Meter a hell of alot better to.

 

[264shooter]

Re: New AR15 ---- I cant shoot the thing

The apprication of accuracy comes with exprience and time.
Do you really think that someone that would buy a "Tom Dick & Harry" built AR could even be capable of appricating the full potential of the weapon.
Probably not.
The White Oak Armamemt rifle in question is definitly not a "T D & H" weapon. They build top notch equipment.
He has a legitiment question and is asking for help.
This forum as I understand it, is for shareing knowledge and exprience with the new and old shooter alike.
Personaly I don't have any problem grasping the context of a post even if the spelling is less that prefect.
I'm not sure what purpose the big colorful capital letters serve..
It seems like shouting to me, very pretty though.
If you lack the knowledge or words to convey your massage then turn up the volume.

 

[Graham]

Re: New AR15 ---- I cant shoot the thing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Piston Pete</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i would think most shooters of AR-15s would be very happy with 1.5 inch groups at 100 yds. what exactly do yo want ? .005 inch groups ? <span style="font-size: 17pt">NEVER HAPPEN !!</span> </div></div>And no way it could ever happen with bullets like 80 JLK VLD's that never shoot tight groups at 100

 

[PistonPete]

Re: New AR15 ---- I cant shoot the thing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Step off bro, and save a little of your credibility. Oh, and read my sig line....I'm talkin' about YOU there....</div></div>

seems to me it also applies to you, unless of course you are the ultimate professor of all AR-15s which i doubt you are so save some of your credibility by confessing you do <span style="font-size: 17pt">NOT</span> know it all <span style="font-size: 20pt"><span style="color: #CC0000">O</span></span> forking <span style="font-size: 20pt"><span style="color: #CC0000">K</span></span> ??

you stick to what you <span style="font-weight: bold">KNOW</span> and i will stick to what i <span style="font-size: 20pt">KNOW</span>, i have over 40 years experience with AR-15s.., what is your years of experience with the AR-15 ???

thank you sir !

 

[OutRider]

Re: New AR15 ---- I cant shoot the thing

...your sig line says it all...<span style="font-weight: bold">not</span> O fuking K, twit...

 

[PistonPete]

Re: New AR15 ---- I cant shoot the thing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Turns out the barrel nut somehow worked itself loose.<span style="font-size: 17pt"> (OK, lets break this down, improper torquing barrel nut !!)</span> You could easily move the barrel about 1/8th an inth rotation by hand<span style="font-size: 17pt"> (WHAT ??? no indexing pin ?? 1/8th inch rotation is impossible if the barrel had an indexing pin and reciever had slot for pin to slip into.)</span> and there was some vertical play as well <span style="font-size: 17pt">(YES ! you will experience all kinds of "play" when the barrel is improperly seated and the nut is improperly torqued.)</span>.</div></div>

<span style="font-weight: bold">are you sure you know what you are doing ? i have replaced, swapped and changed many barrels, and when the indexing pin is inserted in the receivers pin slot there is very little "play", then when the nut is torqued and aligned with gas tube or piston op rod there is a solid match.., in my OPINION, you done something wrong, have you figured it out yet ?? </span>

 

[PistonPete]

Re: New AR15 ---- I cant shoot the thing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: OutRider</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...your sig line says it all...<span style="font-weight: bold">not</span> O fuking K, twit... </div></div>

i know you are not calling names, so thank you for signing off as a "Twit" which i believe you are.

 

[Tyler Kemp]

Re: New AR15 ---- I cant shoot the thing

Wow, seems someone thinks highly of themself.

 

[264shooter]

Re: New AR15 ---- I cant shoot the thing

How would it even possible to complete a barrel installation without the locating pin, which is part of the barrel extension,
to be seated in the indexing slot in the reciever.
At some point after that even if you got the barrel nut started and partially tightened you should be wondering why the gas tube is not lining up or when the bolt is not able to go fully into battery. Thats only a couple of obvious problems that would be encountered.
If things were that fouled up you would not even be close to haveing a functional weapon.
I am going to take guess here and say that the 1/8 inch of rotation he was referring to was probably the barrel nut. An 1/8 inch of rotation there is entirely possible as it would be stopped by the gas tube.
The fact that it even fired tells me that it was assembled correctly, but the nut was not properly touqued.
It's nothing to get excited about, just follow the procedure.
There are some very good books out there that are well written and very clear on this.
Remain calm at all times.........

 

[McCrazy]

Re: New AR15 ---- I cant shoot the thing

Enough pissing on the thread. Impart your knowledge and keep your attitude to yourself.

 

[RicosRevenge]

Re: New AR15 ---- I cant shoot the thing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Piston Pete</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i know you are not calling names, so thank you for signing off as a "Twit" which i believe you are. </div></div>
Maybe he should try a Counter Sniper scope.

 

[kyle1974]

Re: New AR15 ---- I cant shoot the thing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Piston Pete</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">By all accounts the rifle should be a shooter but I couldn't get the thing under 1.5 at 100...</div></div>

i would think most shooters of AR-15s would be very happy with 1.5 inch groups at 100 yds. what exactly do yo want ? .005 inch groups ? <span style="font-size: 17pt">NEVER HAPPEN !!</span> </div></div>

I have a bone F'ing stock bushmaster predator that will shoot .75 MOA with multiple factory loads... from 40 grain to 69 grain. It actually will shoot the 40 grain vmax around .5 MOA.... and it's 100% unmodified other than optics....

 

[rrflyer]

Re: New AR15 ---- I cant shoot the thing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 264shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I am going to take guess here and say that the 1/8 inch of rotation he was referring to was probably the barrel nut. An 1/8 inch of rotation there is entirely possible as it would be stopped by the gas tube</div></div>

This.

I didn't assemble the upper.

And Piston Pete dont you have a mall to protect somewhere. With a counter sniper scope mounted on your .499 revolver?

 

[powderBurnz]

Re: New AR15 ---- I cant shoot the thing

Spend the $35 and get an action vise block!!!!!!

 

[jwn8552]

Re: New AR15 ---- I cant shoot the thing

OK so it was something loose.Glad it was a simple fix. Let us know how it groups now.

 

[PistonPete]

Re: New AR15 ---- I cant shoot the thing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And Piston Pete dont you have a mall to protect somewhere. With a counter sniper scope mounted on your .499 revolver?</div></div>

actually NO !! i do have a country to protect with ALL my weapons, too bad some folks here are permanently stuck on stupid, like the above statement.

try this on for size,

I, ________, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

 

[PistonPete]

Re: New AR15 ---- I cant shoot the thing

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #CC0000"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-size: 20pt">I didn't assemble the upper.</span></div></div></span></span>

THAT was your first mistake, second was NOT inspecting it for improper assembly, third was posting about your ineptness.

have a great day ! the rest of your life !

 

[Guest]

Re: New AR15 ---- I cant shoot the thing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Piston Pete</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And Piston Pete dont you have a mall to protect somewhere. With a counter sniper scope mounted on your .499 revolver?</div></div>

actually NO !! i do have a country to protect with ALL my weapons, too bad some folks here are permanently stuck on stupid, like the above statement.

try this on for size,

I, ________, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God. </div></div>


Despite my opinions of you, Pete. I must say your search-fu is stronger than many here

First Google hit:
http://tvnewslies.org/html/all_enemies__foreign_and_domes.html