New Arms Race, Hypersonic Weapons

[Strykervet]

https://nationalinterest.org/feature/america-and-russia-are-headed-toward-hypersonic-showdown-30587

Hypersonic weapons move orders of magnitude faster than supersonic speeds; generally the "limit" is Mach5 or roughly 3700mph. We have a new one in testing that can move in excess of Mach20! That's over 15,000mph! Surely fast enough to intercept most.

But hypersonic weapons are extraordinarily hard to defend against. They simply move too fast. The idea is that this technology could put us right back where we were in the 50's and 60's. Then, we had 20-30 minutes to respond to a Russian attack. In that time we had to analyze data, make diplomatic connections on a hotline because nothing else was fast enough, and we had to determine as well if it was a ruse, a mistake, or what?

Now, with hypersonic weapons, that time has been cut to essentially nil --if we expect an attack we'll have two choices: respond from fear, or hope it's a mistake on there end. But it'll all be a guess.

This technology is said to dismantle the old "mutually assured destruction" which in a perverted way has prevent nuclear war (though it came close on occasions).

Just a heads up. Anyone here that thinks war won't come to our home you are mistaken. It's a matter of time, and after WW2 we gave up our protection by being isolated by two oceans. Something to keep an eye out for.

China has their own hypersonic program designed off an idea I had --tungsten poles in orbit that can be recalled onto a target. No radiation, same effects. A tungsten telephone pole at 4000mph does serious damage.

Anyway, what's you guy's take on this?

 

[TimeWillTell]

So, China is trying to develop Project Zeus from GI Joe: Retaliation?

 

[Alphatreedog]

I would think that a potential for defense would be a magnetic field to repulse a hypersonic weapon . If you can launch one with a magnetic field why not repulse with the same . Either way somebody gets rich off of this .

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Tungsten rods and similar, launched from high earth orbit, have been around in science fiction for a long time.

They employ gravity to convert potential energy (altitude) into kinetic (terminal) energy.

I seriously doubt that a magnetic field could create any significant deflection.

Iron is much more susceptible to magnetism than cobalt, and cobalt is more susceptible than nickel. Tungsten, by itself, has very, very little susceptibility to magnetism. .

Kinetic strike weapons in SyFy are weapons of the future, a product of spacefaring. They would most likely be made from Iron, which is more responsive to manipulation using magnetic fields and should be relatively plentiful in an asteroid belt.

Greg

 

[niteshooter]

Makes me wonder if the Weatherby family is invested or making in roads to capitalize on this new segment. Seems like a logical next step. ?

 

[dmg308]

I think energy weapon testing is alot further along the we know. I recently saw a program on a ship based platform for just that purpose tracking and superheating hs missles. Dont get much faster then the speed of light.

 

[Dirty D]

If they can’t catch you they can’t hit you. I used to work with a guy that was an SR-71 crew chief, his squadron had a photo on their wall of a Soviet made SAM in flight pointed at the camera. Story was that the ‘71 was off the NK coast and the Norks fires a SAM because they didn’t like it near their airspace, the pilot slowed down to let the SAM get close enough to photograph then went back to cruising speed and the missile drop in the ocean. The Soviets made a point to make much faster SAM’s since then.

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

Russia always seems to have the most badass missiles. The Brahmos 2 looks fckn awesome:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BrahMos-II

 

[W54/XM-388]

Kinetic strike weapons in SyFy are weapons of the future, a product of spacefaring. They would most likely be made from Iron, which is more responsive to manipulation using magnetic fields and should be relatively plentiful in an asteroid belt.
Greg

I think perhaps if space based kinetic weapons become reality I'd go with the simple idea from The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. Just get big chunks of rock, stick a bare minimum of metal on them to let you launch them and attach guidance rockets then have fun.

Refined metal in space will be very valuable and rare for quite some time. Rocks not so much.
In addition, unless somebody uses nuclear tipped interceptor rockets, once on final approach, hitting the rock with conventional explosive tipped rockets simply means area saturation impact instead of single pinpoint impact.

Eventually you don't need many nukes if you have the ability to direct rocks at orbital speeds.

The only downside is they can see them coming a long way off, but even if they have interceptors, the cost balance between hurling rocks vs nuclear tipped interceptors will mean you can just rain down rocks till they run out of rockets.

Then the next weapons technology race will be constant boost, high speed long duration nuclear tipped attack rockets to take out the launching stations if you can't jam the guidance.

It would make for some great dr. Strangelove style weapons platforms, you could have huge numbers of rocks already in reverse or polar orbit around the sun with the guidance systems set to veer into earth impact calculated to hit your enemies if they loose communications or get a final we are doing down signal.. then if your enemy blows you off the face of the earth... 3 to 12 months later they best all be living in deep mine shafts.

You could have some dedicated patriots spending their retirement holed up in far away asteroids controlling launch systems with entanglement communicators.

They could have fun controlling some reverse or polar spin large rocks with constant boost nuclear engines attached that by the time the primary thrust engine powers down have their velocity measured in % of light speed.

 

[Alphatreedog]

A couple of points . The old rule of thumb was when you hear about it the US has had it for at least ten years . This does not negate nukes . We can still se this coming and rain half our Nuke arsenal on you . I don't see being rained on with nukes as a win . As far as the magnetic field I was referring to rail gun launches .
Directed energy , charged particle , and positively or negatively charged material in a plasma state ie plasma cannon , are all theoretically possible . The only limiting factors are time and money . We are at the threshold of birthing Gene Roddenberry's fictional creations . Another option is to just knock these fuckers down after they achieve orbit . You wouldn't sit by if someone walked up the walk to your house or even stood at the curb with a 12 gauge pointed at your house would you ? Well don't poi t tungsten rods at our Country from space . Unless you want scrap value for your fuckin satelite .

 

[W54/XM-388]

Another option is to just knock these fuckers down after they achieve orbit . You wouldn't sit by if someone walked up the walk to your house or even stood at the curb with a 12 gauge pointed at your house would you ? Well don't poi t tungsten rods at our Country from space . Unless you want scrap value for your fuckin satelite .

I'm pretty sure both us and the Russians have some weapons in space pointed at the other.
We probably also already have a well developed plan to make sure theirs turn into space junk if needed (or may have already gone up and tampered with them so they won't actually launch). Going up and grabbing satellites in orbit and "adjusting" them was a project that was worked on quite some time ago by our black space program which gets like 3x more money than NASA does.

 

[QuickNDirty]

Quite the visionary!

 

[Alphatreedog]

We have F-15s outfitted with some forward nozzles and specialized atmosphere to space missiles designed to knock down satelites . They don't quite skip the atmosphere but dammed close . And yes this is real .

 

[Greg Langelius *]

The hypersonic weapons being addressed in the OP are in (or near) atmospheric guided missiles, and not in the ballpark of (super-) orbital kinetic strike weapons.

In more refined SyFy, space warfare is represented with fleets and asteroid mining and ship-based smelter/foundries producing 'rocks' very much like W54 refers to. The concept is both brilliant, and currently very difficult to implement, but long after my (our?) demise(s), I expect it to become a mainstay of interplanetary warfare.

...If, of course, we ever manage to drag our collective sorry asses off this depleted and polluted rock.

In my experience SyFy has been both a harbinger, and a hilarious curiosity to be looked back upon and laughed at, because the truth essentially always turns out to more strange than fiction.

Alphatreedog, I did not mean to disparage your post(s); we are on the same wavelength here.

I agree that what we get to see is old news, and I would be very surprised if the air-to-orbit system had not already been refined and adapted to the F-22, and maybe also the F-35. A similar system has also been tested successfully using the Navy's Vertical Missile Launch capacity. I'd be very surprised if it had not trickled down to the theater level, possibly based on the MLRS framework, both to intercept and to launch replacement satellites.

The orbital high ground is just too critical an asset to leave unexplored and unexploited, hence the USSF.

Greg

 

[Sean the Nailer]

Death Star. I see a Death Star in our (humanity's) future. And if it happens soon enough, our HMFIC can be the one in the fancy black suit that breathe's funny.

(why does Spaceballs come to mind....????)

 

[MarinePMI]

Hypersonic weapons and "Rods of God"...sigh. Not every countermeasure to these is kinetic, just saying...

 

[fx77]

Even before they launch , they will attack with computer and satellite disabling virus infestations (or direct space attacks on our mil sats) leaving Us as vulnerable as was Pearl Harbor to the Japanese at the opening of WWII., No aircraft carrier (for ex) without computers can stop an onslaught of say 20 missles at once.one always will penetrate the defenses. Asymmetrical swarmed attacks.
We are in big trouble folks, and behind the curve.

 

[Strykervet]

I would think that a potential for defense would be a magnetic field to repulse a hypersonic weapon . If you can launch one with a magnetic field why not repulse with the same . Either way somebody gets rich off of this .

Won't work. I'm sure there are all kinds of propulsion but I had an idea for a weapon I'll be damned if China didn't leak that they were building it ten years later. It's basically tungsten telephone poles in orbit and they gain speed up there until recalled onto the target. Near nuclear results with no fallout. And they can go deep.

Currently we use hypersonic weapons to intercept traditional weapons. Shooting one down poses a big problem, not just in that you need the technology to do so, but that you don't have much time to do it. Phalanx, or "Seawhiz" is totally automated and shotgun blasts 20mm AP shells at 6000rpm or so. A human cannot operate it fast enough. Same with hypersonic weapons, any defense will require an automated system, and automated systems can make mistakes. Seawhiz has a pretty good record, but it's not taking out nuclear weapons either at Mach5+.

You do realize that's fast enough to easily take out an SR71 at altitude, right?

That's why this is an arms race. It's a new weapon that defeats most if not all current countermeasures. It's how nuclear weapons started an arms race. The idea is that implementation of this system will defeat any and all missile shields we've spent the last 3 decades making. Also, those systems had very poor records --Patriot's record was padded and shit just made up to make it seem like it worked better than it did so they could sell more. The new one is better but still not perfect. Iron dome isn't much different.

Basically, what this does is turns the clock back to when Europe had zero defense against incoming threats. Us too.

We may have some aces up the sleeve like the lasers and what not, but still, do we REALLY need more deadly weapons and another arms race? And what next, because this NEVER ends? Is this all humanity is good for? If so, global sucicide would at least give the rest of the planet a chance.

We're close to what the refer to as "atomic strength armor" which means that the more energy dumped into the armor the stronger it gets unless energy sufficient to break the atomic bonds is applied, ie, a nuclear weapon. Tanks that can survive all but ground zero 1Kt attacks.

 

[Strykervet]

Hypersonic weapons and "Rods of God"...sigh. Not every countermeasure to these is kinetic, just saying...

But how do you stop a tungsten telephone pole in reentry? Laser won't do it, I wouldn't imagine. No missile can intercept it. No energy weapon is sufficiently powerful enough to do anything --we can ignite and destroy warheads and rocket motors with lasers, but I doubt it would stop ceramic shielded tungsten pole, glowing hot, prior to impact.

It's basically the same reason we can't shoot down meteors. If we stand a chance at a kinetic kill or trajectory change, it has to be preplanned well in advance and started months or even years before the threat arrives.

 

[MarinePMI]

But how do you stop a tungsten telephone pole in reentry? Laser won't do it, I wouldn't imagine. No missile can intercept it. No energy weapon is sufficiently powerful enough to do anything --we can ignite and destroy warheads and rocket motors with lasers, but I doubt it would stop ceramic shielded tungsten pole, glowing hot, prior to impact.

It's basically the same reason we can't shoot down meteors. If we stand a chance at a kinetic kill or trajectory change, it has to be preplanned well in advance and started months or even years before the threat arrives.

Yes, and no. It's not about stopping the weapon or shooting it down. Beyond that, I'm not going to say more on an open, public forum.