Killing steel and paper mainly, but of course I’ll use it a few times to kill deer. Weight doesn’t matter because of scope and PRS stock on it. Looking at a 22” length. I reload so factory ammo isn’t the deciding factor either.
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New barrel. Grendel or Valkyrie?
- Thread starter gopherslayer
- Start date
I like a bigger bullet on meat targets, so I'd go 6.5 Grendel if deer are in the mix. That said, I just finished assembling a 224 predator (Grendel necked down to 224). My 6.5 will still pull primary deer duty, but I'm hoping for better ballistics for match use with the pred.
I have has a 22 pred and a 224 valk
22pred > 224 if you hand load
22 pred <224 if you just want to shoot box ammo
The 22 pred will give you about 150ish over the 224 valk
22pred > 224 if you hand load
22 pred <224 if you just want to shoot box ammo
The 22 pred will give you about 150ish over the 224 valk
6.8SPC leaves more meat on the bolt and significantly increase bolt life. Grendels trash bolts.
So...I’ll bite. How many rounds do you expect Grendel bolt life to be, based on your personal experience, approximate pressures you may run, trueness of receiver and barrel extension, etc-in direct comparison of same in an 6.8SPC? Curious, I run a handful of Grendel’s and the only bolt failure of any kind was a broken extractor-nothing else to offer in over 5000 rounds over course of about 15 years of intermittent shooting. Not to say it can’t happen, but hasn’t as yet. AA hard use, JP and Maxim bolts, headspace well controlled. What do I gain under similar conditions with a 6.8?
Dude it’s a known issue. Congrats that you’ve gotten lucky and haven’t had an issue. Plenty of us have. 6.8 based cartridges are a better fit for the AR platform.
I'd go Grendel, uh, well, I did go Grendel but long before Valkyrie came out.
IMO Grendel is STILL the best all around cartridge for an AR weapon. Somebody be sure to PM me awake if this ever changes.
No pics for some reason, but mine is a consistent .33MOA rifle with 120gr. Nosler BT handloads. Others average 1MOA, more or less, usually a bit less. But the BT's are the magic and you find the right load for yours and you'll be impressed. Get a good barrel for fucks sake, don't go Grendel and get a budget barrel. It ain't that kind of rifle. Loading for it is sorta costly but on the other hand, Lapua brass is available so nothing but good components. Old AA brass was Lapua too FWIW, now it's Hornady. I only use Lapua, it just works better for me in my rifle but others have nothing but good to say about Hornady brass.
Cheap parts trash bolts and since AA kept these proprietary for a while, knockoffs popped up and gave it bad name, like 12.7x44 or whatever. Also 6.8 is shit, it's a limited round and I'm not getting into it, by now everyone oughta know. It's only claim to fame is really that it lead to Valkyrie (but coulda just went from .30 Remington straight to Valkyrie, so...)
No problems with AA bolts, I bought several "just in case" --still on the originals. Including some for a Beowulf, which actually is hard on parts. Waste of money, a couple spares would've been sufficient.
JP makes Grendel bolts too and I do prefer 'em, just haven't had a need to buy any and they came out too late for me. IF I wear out bolts, I'll replace 'em with these, and if you're building a new rifle, it'd behoove you to use a JP FMOS BCG to begin with (I use 'em in everything else, best BCG, period).
Yet to have an AA break, but my barrels are Satern and Lilja and both use factory AA bolts and proper barrel extensions. I'd use JP's, and i will if my stock ever dwindles, but just ain't there yet.
Now what they can be hard on are extractors, having the correct AA extractor setup does seem to help.
IMO Grendel is STILL the best all around cartridge for an AR weapon. Somebody be sure to PM me awake if this ever changes.
No pics for some reason, but mine is a consistent .33MOA rifle with 120gr. Nosler BT handloads. Others average 1MOA, more or less, usually a bit less. But the BT's are the magic and you find the right load for yours and you'll be impressed. Get a good barrel for fucks sake, don't go Grendel and get a budget barrel. It ain't that kind of rifle. Loading for it is sorta costly but on the other hand, Lapua brass is available so nothing but good components. Old AA brass was Lapua too FWIW, now it's Hornady. I only use Lapua, it just works better for me in my rifle but others have nothing but good to say about Hornady brass.
Cheap parts trash bolts and since AA kept these proprietary for a while, knockoffs popped up and gave it bad name, like 12.7x44 or whatever. Also 6.8 is shit, it's a limited round and I'm not getting into it, by now everyone oughta know. It's only claim to fame is really that it lead to Valkyrie (but coulda just went from .30 Remington straight to Valkyrie, so...)
No problems with AA bolts, I bought several "just in case" --still on the originals. Including some for a Beowulf, which actually is hard on parts. Waste of money, a couple spares would've been sufficient.
JP makes Grendel bolts too and I do prefer 'em, just haven't had a need to buy any and they came out too late for me. IF I wear out bolts, I'll replace 'em with these, and if you're building a new rifle, it'd behoove you to use a JP FMOS BCG to begin with (I use 'em in everything else, best BCG, period).
Yet to have an AA break, but my barrels are Satern and Lilja and both use factory AA bolts and proper barrel extensions. I'd use JP's, and i will if my stock ever dwindles, but just ain't there yet.
Now what they can be hard on are extractors, having the correct AA extractor setup does seem to help.
BMX’r
Respect your opinion based on your experience. I’ve chosen my path, for whatever it yields. For me, it’s also a bullet inventory management system having a single caliber to accumulate and not dealing with multiple choices. Load 6.5 CM and Lapua as well, so just more sense in the long run, in my view. And I think good loading practices contribute to life expectancy, also.
Respect your opinion based on your experience. I’ve chosen my path, for whatever it yields. For me, it’s also a bullet inventory management system having a single caliber to accumulate and not dealing with multiple choices. Load 6.5 CM and Lapua as well, so just more sense in the long run, in my view. And I think good loading practices contribute to life expectancy, also.
Lol here we go again with the bolt arguments. Don’t hot rod your Grendel and you’ll be perfectly fine. Also don’t be a tightwad and have a spare at home. You’re not using a Grendel to save your life, so the very rare time that a bolt breaks, swap in a new one and move on. These bolt conversations are dumb.
One guy gets siph after a late night in a bad part of town and suddenly no one will date a red head. This is the best analogy I can come up with regarding the "Grendel bolt issue."
Yes, this.
Grendel popularity was held back for a while because of widespread rumors about bolt breakage (and I do mean rumors, because the actual occurences are still pretty low), but it is skyrocketing the last few years with a lot more people discovering that "the bolt issue" is not the big deal it was made out to be.
If you're interested in a Grendel, don't let the bolt arguments hold you back.
I went Grendel long before the Valkyrie was a thing, so I don't have a grid for it, but have had no issues with accuracy and reliability in a variety of Grendel builds. The only thing its been hard on has been animals on the business end of it.
FYI your blue sig line is really rough on the eyes with this dark grey background.
I went Grendel long ago... never had a bolt issue, though there is a "history" of it. most of those bad bolts were non Alexander Arms gear (reverse engineered) prior to Bill Alexander setting the Grendel free. Now any credible retailer has good bolts now.
I left the Grendel world, mostly due to crappy magazines... CProducts drove me nuts. When I came back to the "wild cat" world the Grendel was set free and the Valk was the newest kid on the block. As soon as you add "critters" to the equation... you need to keep the weight of the 6.5 and overlook the numbers of the Valk.
back to the bolt issues... 2 rifles... 18 inch and 16 inch... +5k rounds down each of the pipes (wolf light weights, hornady black, and hand loads)... zero bolt issues. do i have a spare bolt in my grip? yes. but i also carry rings, a firing pin, etc. so... i like being prepared. There is a "type 2" out there, which i use now... its a heavy lug bolt setup.
If you go Grendel, i have had the best luck with Elander magazines... dont use wolf ammo because its under charged and will cause function issues... use standard buffer setups (you dont need any fancy 3 wire springs and heavy weight buffers).
I left the Grendel world, mostly due to crappy magazines... CProducts drove me nuts. When I came back to the "wild cat" world the Grendel was set free and the Valk was the newest kid on the block. As soon as you add "critters" to the equation... you need to keep the weight of the 6.5 and overlook the numbers of the Valk.
back to the bolt issues... 2 rifles... 18 inch and 16 inch... +5k rounds down each of the pipes (wolf light weights, hornady black, and hand loads)... zero bolt issues. do i have a spare bolt in my grip? yes. but i also carry rings, a firing pin, etc. so... i like being prepared. There is a "type 2" out there, which i use now... its a heavy lug bolt setup.
If you go Grendel, i have had the best luck with Elander magazines... dont use wolf ammo because its under charged and will cause function issues... use standard buffer setups (you dont need any fancy 3 wire springs and heavy weight buffers).
Sounds a bit like 6.5g or any other choice vs .223/5.56.
Negative, its fame started with MSG Holland and AMU's Murray, they choose a .277 bullet for lethality and barrier penetration(maybe the guys at Sig caught onto this). Unfortunately the idiots at remington screwed up the reamer drawings and caused a bad chamber dimension that showed higher pressures than AMU tested. All that was solved with people like ART from SSA and Harrison at ARP, the SPCII chamber, the reason you don't see barrels chambered in the original SAMMI any more. Now you have the correct history and can pass it on next time.
For the OP, if you reload, the Valk is your answer. As mentioned, the 6.8 brass and bolt will take more abuse. I have owned and shot a 6.5g, good round but sold it after getting into 6.5 Creedmoor and seeing how well 6.8 does on deer.
If looking at numbers, the Valk kicks 99% of all available cartridge's asses from the AR15. To beat it, you would have to get into a wildcat that requires more work and doesn't have commercial ammo on the shelf.
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Both chamberings push he mechanical limits of the AR-15 action. Both (consequently, I believe) endured teething pains for some time. IMHO, the Grendel's are resolved, and I believe the Valk is either there or very close to being there.
I think it's time to move the gaze into the future rather than toward the past.
I like the 6.5 Grendel because of the bullet choices. I'm still in the initial stages of load development, but have found a preference for bullet weights in the 90gr and 120gr ranges. I have some suspicions that the Speer 120gr Gold Dot bullets will deliver both accuracy and good terminal performance. That still remains to be seen, but the test loads are ready to shoot. Winds and weather down here on the Border are unsat for the near future, but that will change; it always has. Meanwhile, the Speer 90gr TNT also shows some promise, and refinement loads are ready as well.
I'm doing my development work on my 24" barrel initially, the 20" will follow.
Putting together these two rifles has proven less costly than I had ever imagined. I settled on AR Stoner and PSA as the builders for my core Upper and Lower components, with a few minor but important replacements. The 20" is a stock AR Stoner off-the-shelf unit. The 24" is homebuilt from an AR Stoner integrated Upper Receiver, BCG, and handguard, with an AR Stoner heavy fluted Stainless 24" with A2 flash suppressor. Upgrades consist of substituting PSA Two Stage Nickel Boron triggers, and adding AR Stoner Bolt Release Extensions very similar in concept to the Magpul BAD. The lowers chosen are the PSA M4 Classic EPT Lowers, and each rifle, sans mounts and optics came in at about $600-$700 each. That beats my initial 6.5 AR choice, the 260, by at least a grand.
I had an accuracy problem initially, but that traced down to a narrow handguard coupled with a long screw on an M-Lok bipod mount resulting in solid contact at rest. Ten minutes to fix. This will be tested along with the new test loads. Prior accuracy with the better loads was 1" to 1 1/4" at 100yd, and I'm banking on some significant improvement next time out.
By choosing to combine the 6.5 Grendel and the 24" barrel, I'm intending to optimize distance performance. This may be enhanced by the 4000ft+ ASL altitude local to my home. The 20" may fall into line with the same loads, it may not, TBD later.
I'm doing the work with Speer and Starline handloading components. I've chosen W748 as my propellant, mainly because its listed for both bullet weights, and not in such high demand as others, like Varget. I can usually walk into several shops in my locale and pick them from the empties shown on the shelf. W748 was my chosen 223 bolt gun propellant for decades. It is paired with Win WLR primers. OAL is 2.260 for mag feeding.
Let there be no doubt, I'm a cheapskate. I believe that an AR with a good barrel and a good trigger can be brought to decent accuracy with effective load development. I believe that the AR MilSpec standard allows for a good core system that can lend itself to appropriate upgrades without either side of that equation breaking the bank.
That's the logic behind this project. I think I could be onto something with this one.
Article, 6.5 Grendel vs 224 Valkyrie.
Greg
I think it's time to move the gaze into the future rather than toward the past.
I like the 6.5 Grendel because of the bullet choices. I'm still in the initial stages of load development, but have found a preference for bullet weights in the 90gr and 120gr ranges. I have some suspicions that the Speer 120gr Gold Dot bullets will deliver both accuracy and good terminal performance. That still remains to be seen, but the test loads are ready to shoot. Winds and weather down here on the Border are unsat for the near future, but that will change; it always has. Meanwhile, the Speer 90gr TNT also shows some promise, and refinement loads are ready as well.
I'm doing my development work on my 24" barrel initially, the 20" will follow.
Putting together these two rifles has proven less costly than I had ever imagined. I settled on AR Stoner and PSA as the builders for my core Upper and Lower components, with a few minor but important replacements. The 20" is a stock AR Stoner off-the-shelf unit. The 24" is homebuilt from an AR Stoner integrated Upper Receiver, BCG, and handguard, with an AR Stoner heavy fluted Stainless 24" with A2 flash suppressor. Upgrades consist of substituting PSA Two Stage Nickel Boron triggers, and adding AR Stoner Bolt Release Extensions very similar in concept to the Magpul BAD. The lowers chosen are the PSA M4 Classic EPT Lowers, and each rifle, sans mounts and optics came in at about $600-$700 each. That beats my initial 6.5 AR choice, the 260, by at least a grand.
I had an accuracy problem initially, but that traced down to a narrow handguard coupled with a long screw on an M-Lok bipod mount resulting in solid contact at rest. Ten minutes to fix. This will be tested along with the new test loads. Prior accuracy with the better loads was 1" to 1 1/4" at 100yd, and I'm banking on some significant improvement next time out.
By choosing to combine the 6.5 Grendel and the 24" barrel, I'm intending to optimize distance performance. This may be enhanced by the 4000ft+ ASL altitude local to my home. The 20" may fall into line with the same loads, it may not, TBD later.
I'm doing the work with Speer and Starline handloading components. I've chosen W748 as my propellant, mainly because its listed for both bullet weights, and not in such high demand as others, like Varget. I can usually walk into several shops in my locale and pick them from the empties shown on the shelf. W748 was my chosen 223 bolt gun propellant for decades. It is paired with Win WLR primers. OAL is 2.260 for mag feeding.
Let there be no doubt, I'm a cheapskate. I believe that an AR with a good barrel and a good trigger can be brought to decent accuracy with effective load development. I believe that the AR MilSpec standard allows for a good core system that can lend itself to appropriate upgrades without either side of that equation breaking the bank.
That's the logic behind this project. I think I could be onto something with this one.
Article, 6.5 Grendel vs 224 Valkyrie.
Greg
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The type 2 is not a "heavy lug", hold those and a plain old mil spec 5.56 bolt side by side and compare them. Even the JP bolts have the exact same lug size.
ETA- IF both the .124 and .136 recess bolts are made from the same material and have the same heat treat the bolts with the .124" recess are 8% stronger. The same extractors can be used in either bolt, the extreme duty machined(not MIM) extractor used by AA are the same extractors sold as 7.62x39 extreme duty by Rguns and Alpha Shooting Sports. They are thicker on each side of the stiffener lug.
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For paper and Steel the Valkyrie has less drop and drift. You can push an 80gr ELD with a BC of .485 to 3000fps, at that velocity the 88, 90 and 95 can not catch up until 1200yds. A grendel with a 123ELD BC advertised at .500(measured at .465) at 2550-2600 has much more drop and drift.
My buddy had two JP high pressure bolts fail in less than 1000 rounds each. No he wasn’t running nuclear loads either.
But yeah, it was only the old stuff before AA released whatever. LOL
There are plenty of documented cases of this issue still being an issue.
I'm running the Millennium Manufacturing "monster" bolt... its a group buy bolt off the Grendel Forum... i havent read one negative issue with their bolt and there are a hand full of us in my circle using these bolts with zero issues (over the last several years). Maybe i just jinxed myself, but thats why i carry a spare (just like a carry a spare bolt for my 556).
Yes I have read all the BS since 2007, anyone can call their bolt anything they want to increase sales. I've read where people say certain bolts are made from unobtainium too but turns out they were 9310 VAC ARC like the rest. All you have to do to get real results and the truth is take the bolts to a lab and ask them to do a stress til destruction test.
There are lots of different ideas about heat treat. Some think the harder the stronger but those are the bolts that hold up to a point then shatter, they are too brittle. Others think "tough" is what you need, hard case ductile core. Then there are those that don't have a FN clue and Nitride treat already case hardened bolts. Over time those annealed lugs will compress and headspace will increase, It may take a few years depending on the amount they are shot but I think will will see a lot of problems with flat primers due to excessive headspace in the future.
I’m leaning more towards the Valkyrie for the heavy gun. I’ll more than likely get a Grendel for the wife’s AR so she can say she killed a deer with her AR and then her lib acquaintances can wet their panties from fear.
I’ve killed enough deer with a 223/5.56 that a little more horse power from the Valkyrie would be welcomed for the 250+ yard shots.
I’ve killed enough deer with a 223/5.56 that a little more horse power from the Valkyrie would be welcomed for the 250+ yard shots.
This is spot on.
For a competition round, the 224Valkyrie is better suited imo. Better ballistics coupled with virtually no recoil is a win win. Just don’t go with a cheap barrel or one that has been known to have issues.
Hey boss, can you take a screenshot and text it to me? Im not seeing what youre seeing. Pm inbound...
