New Berger 6.5mm 144gr LRHT

#6
My luck, picked up a bunch of 140 hybrids yesterday.

I measured my 140s and they have the same OAL as the advertised OAL of the new 144s. The base to ogive is also shorter on the 144s. Was hoping that the 144s wouldn’t have to jump so far in my PRC with a .188 FB.
 
#15
I'm hoping to test some in a .260 later today. H4350 at 41.0 to 43.0 grains in Lapua brass at 0.030" off the lands. This bullet is VERY close to the 140 Hybrid just looking at them. Biggest difference is the pointed meplat. The 144s ogive is a touch forward. From reading on the 105 to 109 in the 6mm, expect to be close to your charge weight and die seating on the 144. My seater die had to be bumped up 7 thou to get the exact 30 thou jump from the 140 setting.

To give you an idea on cartridge base to ogive (using Hornady 5-26 collet) in my chamber (a regular .260 Rem with around 0.145-0.150" freebore):
140 Hybrid 2.289"
144 Hybrid 2.295"
140 ELD-M 2.256"
147 ELD-M 2.292"

You can see the ogive is 6 thou further forward on the 144 versus 140.

I'll update when I get some downrange.
By the way, I ordered from Blue Collar Reloading on Thursday, and they arrived on Saturday. Check them out.
 
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#16
0 and 140 are my 140 Hybrid load: 44.1 H4350 in Lapua with BR2 @ 2.950” and 2900 FPS. The 0 was because I pulled the barrel for cleaning and then reinstalled. 140 was a 3 shot group after all testing. 144 was a single round of each H4350 41.0 to 43.0. 42.0, 42.5, and 43.0 measured 0.268” CTC.

Group size consistently kept decreasing. H4350 42.0-43.0 show promise. These are loaded at 2.965” OAL or 2.265” CBTO or 0.030” off the lands. I think a seating depth test at 42.5, a charge weight test, and these will pan out.

No idea on velocity, but I would bet 2750-2800 from the velocity I got with the 140 in that charge weight.

I suck at shooting groups, so don’t hold it against me. I’d much rather be shooting steel.
CE432D78-CCAD-4B23-9B6C-DF084A5AD787.jpeg
 
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#17
Anyone making more headway with these? I went to the range today with a brand new setup and left kinda scratching my head. 6.5x47, 144 LRHT, Varget, CCI 450’s, virgin brass. 4 different charge weights from 36.2-37.1 grains. Set them .020 off and all of my runout was under 5 thou. Brand new AXSA. SD’s look awesome but pretty ugly on paper. I have some figuring out to do.
 
#18
heytonyman said:
Anyone making more headway with these? I went to the range today with a brand new setup and left kinda scratching my head. 6.5x47, 144 LRHT, Varget, CCI 450’s, virgin brass. 4 different charge weights from 36.2-37.1 grains. Set them .020 off and all of my runout was under 5 thou. Brand new AXSA. SD’s look awesome but pretty ugly on paper. I have some figuring out to do.
Click to expand...

Just curious, why are you using varget with these?
 
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#21
I just started playing with these, I have only shot three groups of them but with .010 off the lands with 43.3 gr of rl 16 moving at 2834 with an sd of 5.4 it gave me a a group of .43 moa. And again that was just me picking a random charge.
this is out of a 26 inch 6.5 creedmoor barrel. norma brass. 210m primer.
I will definitely be playing with these more!
 
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#22
BoltActionBrotherhood said:
I just started playing with these, I have only shot three groups of them but with .010 off the lands with 43.3 gr of rl 16 moving at 2834 with an sd of 5.4 it gave me a a group of .43 moa. And again that was just me picking a random charge.
this is out of a 26 inch 6.5 creedmoor barrel. norma brass. 210m primer.
I will definitely be playing with these more!
Click to expand...

Good to know, keep updating as you go...
 
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#24
Chesapeake said:
I’m having good results with these in my 6.5 Creedmoor with RL26. I will post more details after I gather a little more data.
Click to expand...
define good results. I have had good results with rl26, used it for about 2000 rounds. But never got CONSISTENT single digit sds or half moa groups key word being consistently. I would find a load that gave me a low sd and good group, would take it out shooting and they would end up being like an sd of 14.
switched to rl16 getting the same speed and its HARD to get a sd of 9 now.
 
#25
I’ve only shot about 50-60 rounds with the new Bergers and I haven’t shot with the magnetospeed on for more than 10 rounds. During that string I had a standard deviation of 6. I have done two OCW tests recently with RL26 and have consistent point of impact across a wide charge range. The last range session had gusty cross winds so good for practice but not good for gathering a ton of data.
 
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#26
reubenski said:
Depending on his freebore, if that 144 sits deeper than a 140 he may not have room in the case for 4350
Click to expand...

I found these touching the lands at 2.844” COAL in my new WinTac 6.5x47. Certainly not room for a lot of 4350 but I won’t rule it out. Not sure I’d see much benefit given the case capacity and 24” barrel.

I started off at a .020 jump for initial testing. The chrono said yes but the groups said hell no. I’m going back to the range with a full array of seating depth testing up to a .090 jump as well as testing 3 other primers. Also picked up a hand full of other bullets I’m very familiar with. I certainly won’t say anything negative of the 144’s at this point. Many many variables to work thru with a brand new setup.


01567926-D977-487C-A39D-36ED97B19CAE.jpeg
 
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#28
I’m working some loads this weekend, snow has been slowing me down. I’m going to use some RL16 in Peterson Brass. I’ll post some results after the weekend.
 
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#29
Sorted out my junk and got back to the range. They shot well and seemed to prefer being closer than farther from the lands. I’m not complaining for the 30mph gusts we had this weekend.

6.5x47, 36.8g Varget, CCI 450’s, Fed 205’s, Rem 7 1/2’s, and Fed 205MAR’s. Had some good SD’s with both 205MAR’s and CCI’s despite the 450’s being 40+ years old. Threw some 140 Hornady’s in the mix just in case the Berger 144’s didn’t pan out.

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#30
Berger 144 Gn LRHT

6.5cm
Krieger 1:7 M40 23”
Peterson LRP
RL16
CCI BR-2

Load work up from 42.1gn - 43.3gn
My goal was finding a node around 2800 fps / looks promising in the ballistic software.

3 rounds per load

Grains MV SD
42.1 2775 11.5
42.3 2789 9.5
42.5 2799 12.9
42.7 2829 2.2
42.9 2834 1.0
43.1 2866 9.5
43.3 2860 24.0

Projectiles were seated just inside of mag length at 2.138 base to ogive which is 65 thousandths jump for me.


C69679D2-8FA1-4772-A5F1-7BC43184E186.jpeg
 
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#33
BoltActionBrotherhood said:
Except for a seemly point of impact change. My node for this bullet is 2830 as well! Provides a .4moa group for me with 5 shots.
Click to expand...

Eh sorta kinda. I don’t put as much merit into POI shift as I used to admittedly. Even with poor groups, a velocity node with SD’s like that would be plenty for me to start loading up 5-shot groups in that powder range and tweaking seating depth to tighten the group up.
 
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#35
heytonyman said:
Sorted out my junk and got back to the range. They shot well and seemed to prefer being closer than farther from the lands. I’m not complaining for the 30mph gusts we had this weekend.

6.5x47, 36.8g Varget, CCI 450’s, Fed 205’s, Rem 7 1/2’s, and Fed 205MAR’s. Had some good SD’s with both 205MAR’s and CCI’s despite the 450’s being 40+ years old. Threw some 140 Hornady’s in the mix just in case the Berger 144’s didn’t pan out.

View attachment 7224052
View attachment 7224065View attachment 7224061View attachment 7224062View attachment 7224063View attachment 7224064
Click to expand...
How the hell does someone get an SD of 0? What do you attribute being able to achieve that? Obviously it’s many factors but any big ones that come to mind?
 
#36
Some low numbers are common during small batch tests of well made bullets, basically the the standard deviation calculation says there is little to no variance. Larger testing or 5 or more rounds will absolutely be more true and I have yet to see a 0 on 5 or more rounds. Well sorted bullets, repeatable seating depth and a precise charge measurement .... mix that with finding a load that your gun setup likes.
 
#37
BoltActionBrotherhood said:
How the hell does someone get an SD of 0? What do you attribute being able to achieve that? Obviously it’s many factors but any big ones that come to mind?
Click to expand...

Like you said, lots of factors. I can’t say any one thing in particular because about the time I think I have things figured out shit goes sideways. I’d say a good scale and consistent neck tension are the two factors that’s have shown repeatable improvement. This was in virgin Lapua brass but I anneal every firing, trim every firing, and I seat bullets in a lubricated neck.
 
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#39
Just before the holidays I bought a box of 100 of these new 144 gn bullets. Could not find Berger published load data so contacted them. They advised they did not have any published data at present but would be happy to give me some over the phone. They could not get back to me until after the holidays and on Jan 2. On the 14th I called them ( I have been busy) and spoke with them. He gave me load data for the powders I asked about. Here is a copy and paste of the record of this data that I saved:

Data for the new 144 gn Target Hybrid:
RL-16: 37.5-41.5 (2833)
RL-17: 38.5- 42.5
H4350: 38- 42.3 (2750)

I did not ask which primers they used, but assume CCIs. And assume Lapua brass. But COAL was 2.80".

The MVs listed were gathered by Berger using a 26" test bbl. The left charge weights are beginning and the right side charge weights are the maximums (in grains). I won't have time to do any load testing on these bullets until spring, so if any of you following this thread do any testing using any of these powders, please post here and let me know what your outcome was. (I'm figuring to use RL-16, Lapua brass, CCI 450 primers, on a rifle I am having custom built which will be ready this spring) I'm shooting 24" bbls and find good accuracy node at around 2700-ish.

Shout out to Berger for excellent customer service. He had time to answer some other questions I had.

FWIW, lg
 
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#40
I ran some 144s in a 26" carbon Proof 6.5 SAUM a few weeks ago... I based it off of my 135 A-tip load and it didn't take long to get to pressure. I tried to get up to 60.1 of H1000 but ran into pressure in the mid 59s at about 3125. I backed my load down to 57.0 and am going to work up from there. I hope to shoot them out shortly and will post an update!

FYI... I also will likely try Retumbo as it works better for me on the 150 SMKs and 156 EHs.
 
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#41
zandnubbz said:
I ran some 144s in a 26" carbon Proof 6.5 SAUM a few weeks ago... I based it off of my 135 A-tip load and it didn't take long to get to pressure. I tried to get up to 60.1 of H1000 but ran into pressure in the mid 59s at about 3125. I backed my load down to 57.0 and am going to work up from there. I hope to shoot them out shortly and will post an update!

FYI... I also will likely try Retumbo as it works better for me on the 150 SMKs and 156 EHs.
Click to expand...

Excited to hear your results
 
#42
No pictures, but I just started playing with these. Peterson LRP brass, Fed 210m primers, RL16, seated at .030 off lands. Rifle is a custom Savage 6.5 CM with 28" bartlein 1-8 twist. I found a couple nodes, one is near max around 43 grains and produced 2925 with an ES of 13 for 5 shot group. 4 rounds are basically through the same hole and 1 quasi flier, could have be me. The other node is going to be around 41.5-41.7 and should produce a 2860-2870ish velocity. (I built at custom profile in QL for it) I started at 41.9 which had good numbers and decent group. Velocity was around 2885 with ES of 12. All rounds touching, nice ragged hole. This is a new barrel and only has about 175 rounds on it. (first 75 rounds were with 140s prior to getting the 144s) I hope to shoot the lower end this week end. I did get to shoot some at distance (1083) and they out perform anything I have run so far. I think the lower node will be better, the upper node is a bit hard on components and very near max. The 109s in the 6 CM are fantastic too and seem to like about a 1/2 grain less than what I was shooting before (39.9 3045 with 108 BT and 39.3 with 109s 3030 in 26" PVA), which is similar to what I am seeing with these. I have not been a Berger fan in the past, but I like these new long range hybrids.
 
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#43
I worked up a load for these today for my 6.5
Creedmoor

New lapua brass
CCI 450
H4350
2.205” base to ogive
2.91” COAL
This is about .045 jump in my rifle but gets them to feed good from the magazine and keeps the bearing surface ahead of the neck shoulder junction. I’m running a 22.5” barrel from SAC in DT srs A1 and an ultra 9.

42.0-2730 SD 7.3
42.3-2751 SD 3.5
42.5-2755 SD 5.9
43.0-2790 SD 12.0

There was a nice node at 42.3-42.5 and even though SD wasn’t quite as low the group on 42.5 was very good. Ran it out to 500 and was happy with results of 1.5 inch 3 shot group. Hit 2800 with one of the rounds of 43.0 and just had very slight pressure sign on primer.

100 yard target I used same POA and just dialed over .4 mil for each group there was very little elevation change in them and have each charge labeled
 

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#44
Nice. These seem to pressure out very similar to a 140 and nodes seem to be in about the same places with regards to powder charge. I am seeing MV about 30fps slower than a 140 Hybrid at the same charge weight in my x47. They love to jump 30-35 thou in my rifle.

I shot a bench / belly match with these today and they were extremely consistent. First time past 100 yard paper with this particular rig and the advertised BC put me spot on out to 1000. I had a sub 3” 4 shot group going out there until Murphy kicked in. Finished 3rd for the day behind Sanoski and Baker.
 
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#45
Krieger 1:7 M40 23”
Peterson LRP
RL16
CCI BR-2
DAB8DA7E-2568-4E10-866C-289ABEB667A6.jpeg

Loaded second MV test

3 rounds per load

Grains MV SD
41.0 2728 7.8
41.2 2735 7.6
41.4 2763 5.6
41.6 2774 15.3
41.8 2785 11.3
42.0 2795 8.0
42.2 2811 6.5
42.4 2813 6.4
42.6 2830 5.5
42.8 2851 9.3
43.0 2872 15.8
43.2 2883 12.5
43.4 2888 6.2
43.6 2902 5.1
43.8 2921 14.5

I ran a seating depth test at 42.3 grains...
definitely using magazines without binder plates because these suckers are getting long, I am looking at .050 jump after all said and done. Pretty happy with the results thus far.
 
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#46
Gwain said:
No pictures, but I just started playing with these. Peterson LRP brass, Fed 210m primers, RL16, seated at .030 off lands. Rifle is a custom Savage 6.5 CM with 28" bartlein 1-8 twist. I found a couple nodes, one is near max around 43 grains and produced 2925 with an ES of 13 for 5 shot group. 4 rounds are basically through the same hole and 1 quasi flier, could have be me. The other node is going to be around 41.5-41.7 and should produce a 2860-2870ish velocity. (I built at custom profile in QL for it) I started at 41.9 which had good numbers and decent group. Velocity was around 2885 with ES of 12. All rounds touching, nice ragged hole. This is a new barrel and only has about 175 rounds on it. (first 75 rounds were with 140s prior to getting the 144s) I hope to shoot the lower end this week end. I did get to shoot some at distance (1083) and they out perform anything I have run so far. I think the lower node will be better, the upper node is a bit hard on components and very near max. The 109s in the 6 CM are fantastic too and seem to like about a 1/2 grain less than what I was shooting before (39.9 3045 with 108 BT and 39.3 with 109s 3030 in 26" PVA), which is similar to what I am seeing with these. I have not been a Berger fan in the past, but I like these new long range hybrids.
Click to expand...

can you post a photo of the QL profile you made please?
 
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#47
Chesapeake said:
I’ve only shot about 50-60 rounds with the new Bergers and I haven’t shot with the magnetospeed on for more than 10 rounds. During that string I had a standard deviation of 6. I have done two OCW tests recently with RL26 and have consistent point of impact across a wide charge range. The last range session had gusty cross winds so good for practice but not good for gathering a ton of data.
Click to expand...

What/how did you determine a good starting weight wit the RL-26?
I’m about to start working up the same load.
 
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#50
Shawd43 said:
Krieger 1:7 M40 23”
Peterson LRP
RL16
CCI BR-2
View attachment 7239322
Loaded second MV test

3 rounds per load

Grains MV SD
41.0 2728 7.8
41.2 2735 7.6
41.4 2763 5.6
41.6 2774 15.3
41.8 2785 11.3
42.0 2795 8.0
42.2 2811 6.5
42.4 2813 6.4
42.6 2830 5.5
42.8 2851 9.3
43.0 2872 15.8
43.2 2883 12.5
43.4 2888 6.2
43.6 2902 5.1
43.8 2921 14.5

I ran a seating depth test at 42.3 grains...
definitely using magazines without binder plates because these suckers are getting long, I am looking at .050 jump after all said and done. Pretty happy with the results thus far.
Click to expand...
That’s a lot of data. It’s interesting how linear the velocities are. I think a lot of people do ladder tests over chronographs with one round per charge, and then see flat spots on the graph that they think are nodes but are really just random fluctuations.
 
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