New brass neck tension issue

[mercervillerental]

I ran into something this morning that I've never experienced so I wanted to run it by all of you to get your thoughts on how I should proceed.

I have about 1000 rounds of brand new never fired LC 223 brass that I ordered from Grafs. I trimmed and primed (but no resizing or other prep steps) about 40 of them and began loading when I noticed one round easily pushed back into the case just from the pressure of the caliper during measurement. I checked the other 9 rounds or so that I loaded and while no other cases were that severe I was able to push most of the bullets back into the case by pressing the bullet tip against a solid surface and pushing hard on the round.

So....now what? Should I load the cases and then crimp them? Should I FLS all of them? Other? Any one experienced this before with new brass?

 

[FishDr]

I have never had to trim new brass. I generally neck size new brass (with a mandrel or lee collet) to get some semblance of consistent neck tension. Generally I have experienced new brass, especially 223 LC and 308 LC being extremely tight neck when new. Never noticed it being loose.

How did you trim? Did your trimmer pilot loosen the neck on those few pieces? Was it difficult to insert?

 

[EchoDeltaSierra]

I _always_ size new brass as part of my prep process.

 

[mercervillerental]

I have never had to trim new brass. I generally neck size new brass (with a mandrel or lee collet) to get some semblance of consistent neck tension. Generally I have experienced new brass, especially 223 LC and 308 LC being extremely tight neck when new. Never noticed it being loose.

How did you trim? Did your trimmer pilot loosen the neck on those few pieces? Was it difficult to insert?

I trimmed using my Giraud trimmer. After I discovered the issue I tried running a couple cases through my Lee Collet die and still had the same results, which I guess could also mean that I don't have the setup properly, but I thought was interesting regardless.

 

[mercervillerental]

I have never had to trim new brass. I generally neck size new brass (with a mandrel or lee collet) to get some semblance of consistent neck tension. Generally I have experienced new brass, especially 223 LC and 308 LC being extremely tight neck when new. Never noticed it being loose.

How did you trim? Did your trimmer pilot loosen the neck on those few pieces? Was it difficult to insert?

SOB....I think its the trimmer. I seated a bullet in an untrimmed case and with a lot of pressure I was only able to set it back about 0.010. Trimmed another brand new piece and was able to push another bullet straight back with moderate pressure after seating.

I have a call into Giraud but happy to get more feedback/advice in the meantime as well.

 

[FishDr]

Have no experience with that brand of trimmer. Hopefully you are onto the correct solution!

 

[mercervillerental]

Have no experience with that brand of trimmer. Hopefully you are onto the correct solution!

In any case thank you for the pointer!!!

 

[MarinePMI]

I'll say it again in this thread. ALWAYS FL RESIZE VIRGIN BRASS

You have no idea what state it is in when it's new, so sizing is a must to set a standard.

 

[918v]

New LC brass sold as bulk is over annealed factory reject crap.

 

[mercervillerental]

New LC brass sold as bulk is over annealed factory reject crap.

I'd never heard that sentiment before. Any suggestions on where I should go from here with 1000 rounds of it? FLS, then shoot it or toss the whole batch?

 

[918v]

Well that’s my sentiment because I got burned.

You can size/expand the necks a bunch of times to harden them so they will hold a bullet but they will still shoot like shit through several reload cycles until the shoulder hardens. Then they will shoot fine. But it will cost you a bunch of powder and bullets.

 

[mercervillerental]

Well that’s my sentiment because I got burned.

You can size/expand the necks a bunch of times to harden them so they will hold a bullet but they will still shoot like shit through several reload cycles until the shoulder hardens. Then they will shoot fine. But it will cost you a bunch of powder and bullets.

!@#$

Well, very much not what I wanted to hear but I really do appreciate the heads up.

 

[EchoDeltaSierra]

I'd never heard that sentiment before. Any suggestions on where I should go from here with 1000 rounds of it? FLS, then shoot it or toss the whole batch?

Being someone who anneals my precision brass each firing, my personal practice is to take my necks down a bit tighter than necessary and pull a carbide ball through them. I've also noticed after about 2-3 times through the process of anneal/resize my brass is very consistent through the rest of it's life. That said, I just retired a 50 piece batch of Nosler brass (in 6.5CR) I messed up hand annealing at the 3rd firing and decided to see if I could recover them. The necks and cases were really nice after firing 11 but about 1/3 of them had primer pockets that were loose but was still shooting low single digit SD groups.

From my experience it's less about what tension or hardness the necks are as long as everything is as similar as possible. Consistency is what produces precision.

 

[EchoDeltaSierra]

I guess another valid questions would be what are you shooting with this? If you're shooting 223 through a carbine with 55gr crimped bullets, don't worry about it. If you're looking at making a lot of precision ammo for 1/2 moa long range shooting, that's a different task.

How I treat my 6.5CR and 300WM brass is significantly different than how I treat my 300BLK brass.

 

[D2junky]

I have some of the same brass from Graf’s. LC18 stamp just purchased in March or April or whenever they first got it. Been shooting fine in one bolt gun and 3 ar’s. And by fine I mean sub 0.5 moa for 5 shots. I just sorted for weight, ran over a 21st century expander and loaded.

 

[spife7980]

SOB....I think its the trimmer. I seated a bullet in an untrimmed case and with a lot of pressure I was only able to set it back about 0.010. Trimmed another brand new piece and was able to push another bullet straight back with moderate pressure after seating.

I have a call into Giraud but happy to get more feedback/advice in the meantime as well.

Its not the giraud. The giraud just scrapes off the end of the neck, its doesnt have a pilot or anything that could go up into the case to expand the necks. If anything it does the opposite and would squeeze oversized necks down with the case holder but that would be hell to try and insert and size with since thats essentially what a sizing dies does.

If it was holding tight before trimming then you either a) took off so entirely too much of the neck that only a retard would consider using the cases still or b) there was a burr on the neck which was cutting into the bullets holding them and trimming removed that. In either case the trimmer is not at fault.
I doubt either of those are your problem.


Measure a virgin case neck diameter. Measure a loaded case neck diameter. Whats the difference? If its none or .001 or less then your case necks are too large and need to be sized down to properly hold the bullet.

Not sure I by the new brass being so soft that it cant hold a bullet theory either. Lets get some actual measurements and useful data before we continue throwing crap against the wall and guessing what will stick.

 

[918v]

Its not the giraud. The giraud just scrapes off the end of the neck, its doesnt have a pilot or anything that could go up into the case to expand the necks. If anything it does the opposite and would squeeze oversized necks down with the case holder but that would be hell to try and insert and size with since thats essentially what a sizing dies does.

If it was holding tight before trimming then you either a) took off so entirely too much of the neck that only a retard would consider using the cases still or b) there was a burr on the neck which was cutting into the bullets holding them and trimming removed that. In either case the trimmer is not at fault.
I doubt either of those are your problem.


Measure a virgin case neck diameter. Measure a loaded case neck diameter. Whats the difference? If its none or .001 or less then your case necks are too large and need to be sized down to properly hold the bullet.

Not sure I by the new brass being so soft that it cant hold a bullet theory either. Lets get some actual measurements and useful data before we continue throwing crap against the wall and guessing what will stick.

Have you ever loaded this stuff???

 

[918v]

It’s soft enough to chew.

 

[spife7980]

Have you ever loaded this stuff???

I have not personally loaded new Lakecity, no, only 1x fired.
I do have a sack of new lake city from midsouth though in the corner though which I guess Im going to have to break out and check for myself tonight. Challenge accepted.


But if the missing measurements (which we have yet to see) dont add up to anything I still have a hard time thinking it will so soft and malleable enough so as to to be manipulated by simple finger pressure and provide no bullet grip at all. Even the softest brass still isnt play dough.

Im more inclined to want measurements before we jump to any conclusions based on zero data just yet. Lets not throw the baby out with the bath water on a whim.

 

[bunsen27]

I'm presently loading 1k rounds in LC18 bulk brass I purchased from MidSouth Shooters Supply this Spring for an upcoming PDog hunt. It's very similar in neck tension to the LC08 bulk brass I purchased from midwayUSA a decade ago, which is to say normal. Not too hard and not too soft.

Due to the necks often being dented I will run all the brass through a mandrel die (.2220), followed by a sizing die without the expander ball, then another mandrel die (.2230) at stations 1, 2, & 3 respectively on a Dillon550 .

I'm loading a 55gr VMax over XBR8208 and getting sub MOA out of an 18" White Oak and sub half-MOA out of a Savage 12 Varmint with low SD & ES. Thus I'm not buying that all bulk LC is crap theory either. YMMV

 

[MarinePMI]

This really sounds to me like the cases were cleaned, primer pockets swaged, but the brass never went through the final sizing process. Has the OP sized new cases (as in FL sized), and then trimmed to ensure it isn't the parent case itself that is the issue? He stated these were unsized cases right from the bag, so I guess (like any trouble shooting), it probably makes sense to start at the first step in the process....

 

[spife7980]

My new lake city is a tad looser than I’d like, about .0015 of interference fit, .2475 vs .2460, slides over my turning arbor with an easy touch but I’m hard pressed to get a bullet to slide with an uncomfortable amount pressure on my hand.

Measure your brass.

 

[mercervillerental]

Long term follow up here - I've been shooting the brass in question for quite a while now with no issues. Thanks to everyone who chimed in here, hopefully someone else can benefit in the future from this as well!