New CAS crafts in competition

[Deleted member 10043]

Skyraider, Dragonfly, Warthog... I don't know. We are already giving the fancier Embraer to foreign allies. Should be the Beechcraft (USA). Probably nothing wrong with the Air Tractor concept for the Afghan Air Force and the likes.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/news/a27751/oa-x-light-aircraft/

 

[RedRyder]

My money's on the jet. Not because it's the best product but because it's a jet. AF/Pentagon love jets. Which brings to mind a bit of irony. The AF has said that the A-10 is too old, too susceptible to groundfire or other jets or whatever but then, they can't get enough of AC-130s which would probably last 10 minutes of ISIS or the Taliban had effective MANPADs.

 

[ArmyJerry]

A 10 is quiet and will take more hits than any prop plane, just build out another thousand with improved avionics and call it a day. And let NCOs fl them, only combat vets allwowed to fly the A10. No officers.

 

[Dirty D]

Why not give the OV-10 updated engines and avionics? The Bronco proved itself quite good at CAS in Vietnam and was used for a long time afterwards, no need to reinvent the wheel.

 

[pmclaine]

Bring back the Spad....

 

[ArmyJerry]

I dont think these prop planes can tak e the punishment that the a10 can take plus they are loud as shit, the a10 is wisper quiet especially with cloud cover and hills around. Mother fukers can hear these things taking off a carrier 200 miles of the coast.

 

[pmclaine]

I dont think these prop planes can tak e the punishment that the a10 can take plus they are loud as shit, the a10 is wisper quiet especially with cloud cover and hills around. Mother fukers can hear these things taking off a carrier 200 miles of the coast.

As a fan of the flying gun I agree but if going full retard a 2700 hp radial is way cool.

Besides the ability to carry unconventional bombs and deliver with precision is proven in combat.....

 

[Deleted member 10043]

It's not like it used to be with low alt, a topo, stop watch, protractor, and a shitty PRC. These new ones are designed to operate at a high orbit. Sensors show friendly side. Nevertheless, they can't use the gun pod without getting closer. What is nice is they can loiter all day and can fly several for the same cost as one warthog. Plus, the cannon is overkill and too wide of danger space for low intensity conflicts with no armor on the ground.

 

[ArmyJerry]

just remember we are one emp away from separating the pencil dick nerd fuckers from the badass protractor reading topo grid line remembering badass muthas. Thanks to our last 5 presidents the Bahams will soon have enough nukes to threaten the USA and outrtech dominance. Stick with hardened vacuum tubes of the A10, spin up the turbines, and let them rip.

wide danger and kill zone = good. WTF am I missing here?

 

[texastonk]

they do pair nicely together.

 

[pmclaine]

I have heard that Hans Rudel was asked about the best characteristics of a tank killing airplane by the A10 design team. Unsure if that is fact or unsubstantiated rumor. Ill call it the latter for now.

Anyway had he been allowed more input he might suggest this...

 

[ArmyJerry]

the Germans lost

 

[pmclaine]

the Germans lost

Thankfully.

Still someone went and talked to the guy that apparently had killed a few tanks.

 

[Skunk]

The AT-6 is the right answer. The T-6 Texan has been the standard Trainer for nearly ten years now and is a fantastic aircraft. Having parts commonality between training and operational aircraft would make sense, there are already tons of trained maintainers working on them, and every current pilot is already experienced in flying it. Ejection seats, 8G turns.... It makes sense.

 

[ArmyJerry]

can it hold a gau 8?

 

[sirhrmechanic]

the Germans lost

The design team that developed the A-10 concept and, later, the Fairchild engineers who designed it... interviewed former WWII Ju87 Stuka pilots along with a lot of active-duty Skyraider pilots. When the A10 was in design, the WW2 veteran Luftwaffe dive-bomber pilots (who survived... not many did) were still in their 50's and were very helpful in their input. A lot of their experience was used in the design. I don't believe Rudel himself was interviewed as he was something of a pariah.... and a bit of an un-repentant Nazi living in Argentina at the time.

The value of the Stuka pilots was in their knowledge of air-to-ground against tanks. Which was the military threat at the time.... the Fulda Gap being the highway into Western Europe. Skyraider pilots had good infantry-support experience. But only the surviving Ju86 pilots know 'Tank Plinking' as it became known.

And, hey, Werner von Braun lost, too. Still got us to the Moon.

Too bad they didn't design the Trumpets of Jericho sirens into the A10, though. That would have been just awesome on the Safwan Highway....

Cheers,

Sirhr

P.S. Not to buck tradition here, but why aren't UAV's being considered for this? Without a 'biological' slowing it down, the UAV's could have far more performance, carry heavier loads, etc, etc, etc. Yes, I know... eyeballs on ground and human finger on trigger... right on the scene. And no uplink/downlink delays that matter on CAS when ordnance is coming in danger-close. I get that. But what are the real trade-offs? Is an inhabited aircraft the answer? Just a thought...

P.P.S. According to Wiki... that fount of all knowledge, the design team all read Rudel's autobiography. No mention of whether they interviewed him.

 

[ArmyJerry]

UAV are starting to become organic to line units, soon the army can get rid of the air force.

 

[Dirty D]

As a fan of the flying gun I agree but if going full retard a 2700 hp radial is way cool.

Besides the ability to carry unconventional bombs and deliver with precision is proven in combat.....

That is the shit right there!

 

[sirhrmechanic]

When I was working with GD in the early 2000's, one of my areas was arming UAVs. Not a popular topic at the time. I wrote a paper on the limitations placed on airframes by carrying pilots. Needless to say that the Air Force did not like it one bit... given that most of their higher-ups were... pilots. Went over like a skunk at church. But the math is pretty simple... put a 9G-capable pilot in combat with a 16G-capable UAV and the outcome is pre-determined... Every time.

My argument for writing it was that it made gatling guns relevant again. Because the only reason for million-dollar-each missiles is standoff range. Keep pilots safe and planes as far out of range of their targets as possible. With high-g airframes, a short (and cheap) gatling burst would be as effective as missiles. And you could carry a lot more ammo by deleting... pilot and life-support equipment from the airframe.

Plus you don't need that added expenses (and weight and therefore fuel consumption) of making it survivable. You don't need a cockpit and all those avionics. At the end of combat, the pilot walks out of his (or her, these days) Conex for a beer. The costs to build and operate and arm are phenomenally lower.

Again, I have nothing against pilots. And probably could argue that CAS may end up being the last role in which the in-aircraft pilot is really critical. Because some things the eyeball-to-brain connection does better than links and computers. And supporting people on the ground with badguys right on top of them... is probably the hardest role in aviation.

Cheers,

Sirhr

P.S. (again). We did have fun with Metalstorm. Still not deployed anywhere, but it had some really neat capabilities for CAS. You could use Ink Jet printer software to lay out its fire patterns. Cheap and off-the-shelf fire control. Once again, too newfangled. Another skunk in the church of missiles and pilots.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Just for the audio-visuals.

As for the prop plane... good luck. Air Forces don't even know what pistons are any more.

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[ArmyJerry]

As a 16R3H with 2 years at White Sands shooting down actual high performance rotary and jet aircraft I am telling you the prop planes will be swept from the sky by even rudimentary AD systems. The A10 is one hard fuker to actually knock out of the sky even with missile hits. All you fly boy fanatics dont realize how quick you can be eliminated even in stealth planes by modern AD systems.

Hardest target to actually knock from the sky are a10 and AH 64 in my experience.

 

[Skunk]

can it hold a gau 8?

Is that the USAF's requirement, or yours? It seems the four aircraft they're evaluating meet the requirements of the mission, at least preliminarily, or they wouldn't be testing them.

You should give them a call, tell them you know best what is easily shot out of the sky, and save us all a bunch of tax dollars.

 

[ArmyJerry]

Evidently they don't know what the fk they are doing, they wanted to get rid of the A10 20 years ago, how many CAS strikes and loiter time could that dozen F15 E's be capable of in Iraq and Afghanistan over the past 17 years? So yes I am smarter than the whole fucking AF combined pencil dick.

 

[ArmyJerry]

Evidently they don't know what the fk they are doing, they wanted to get rid of the A10 20 years ago, how many CAS strikes and loiter time could that dozen F15 E's be capable of in Iraq and Afghanistan over the past 17 years? So yes I am smarter than the whole fucking AF combined pencil dick.

oh I just looked, the AF saying it will be replaced by the F35 in 2022, that fkng gold plated service needs to be folded back into the army, the savings could be shared with Marine Air., F 35 loiter time, 22 minutes, will have 7 rounds of conventional AP 7.62 to put on target, only after it parks on tarmac to get a stable enough platform to shoot from and only after the canopy is opened so the pilot can get a few breaths of fresh oxygen..

http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/24/politics/a-10-warthog-retirement-air-force-budget/index.html

 

[Alphatreedog]

The A10 is a proven platform . It works , is reliable what else do you need . Fuck add a 50 cal pod if you have to . By the time they finish developing , testing and working out bugs on a new plane they could've financed keeping the A10 active for the next 10 years .

 

[Flyingbullseye]

I have heard that Hans Rudel was asked about the best characteristics of a tank killing airplane by the A10 design team. Unsure if that is fact or unsubstantiated rumor. Ill call it the latter for now.

Anyway had he been allowed more input he might suggest this...

lol, great flight sim but if we're going to use props I'll take a F4U-5 over the stuka any day.

 

[Skunk]

Evidently they don't know what the fk they are doing, they wanted to get rid of the A10 20 years ago, how many CAS strikes and loiter time could that dozen F15 E's be capable of in Iraq and Afghanistan over the past 17 years? So yes I am smarter than the whole fucking AF combined pencil dick.

We all know you're smarter than the whole Air Force. You demonstrate your mental prowess here daily.

 

[ArmyJerry]

Not hard to do really,they make it easy.

 

[pmclaine]

lol, great flight sim but if we're going to use props I'll take a F4U-5 over the stuka any day.

You must value aircraft designed to go fast in line with the horizon more than planes that only go fast in the perpendicular?

I guess even a Cessna can reach speed when pointed straight down.

 

[pmclaine]

That is the shit right there!

Read the story behind it. Its pretty funny. From a time when fighting hard followed by playing hard wouldn't result in loss of career.

 

[pmclaine]

Just for the audio-visuals.

As for the prop plane... good luck. Air Forces don't even know what pistons are any more.

Cheers,

Sirhr

Look for a video of a radial performing a shotgun start.

I believe they used a ten gauge blank to start some of those birds, neat as hell.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

^^^ Gas cartridges were a lot bigger I think... Haven't you ever seen the original "Flight of the Phoenix" movie with Jimmy Stewart???? They use gas shells to start that engine.

One of the greatest flying movies ever made. Don't bother with the pathetic remake. Watch the original. Just amazing!

Army... another one to keep you on the couch tomorrow if you haven't seen it. And, of course, Jimmy Stewart 'was' Army Air Corps (until 1949 at least...)

Cheers,

Sirhr

Free on YouTube though the resolution isn't great!: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxJNxrZCboY

And, yes they do look like 10 gauge!

 

[ArmyJerry]

Jimmy, a true badass.

 

[pmclaine]

As a 16R3H with 2 years at White Sands shooting down actual high performance rotary and jet aircraft I am telling you the prop planes will be swept from the sky by even rudimentary AD systems. The A10 is one hard fuker to actually knock out of the sky even with missile hits. All you fly boy fanatics dont realize how quick you can be eliminated even in stealth planes by modern AD systems.

Hardest target to actually knock from the sky are a10 and AH 64 in my experience.

Your opposites in the ZSU-23 were primary targets for us to identify as Dragon AT guided missile gunners.

We were told a ZSU took precedence over any other thing that might need our attention.

Fuck the guy on the ground about to get run over by a tank, they were worried about the AC.

It would take a pretty cold gunner to hold track though should the ZSU decide to go anti infantry role ala the Flakverling in Saving Private Ryan.

 

[pmclaine]

^^^ Gas cartridges were a lot bigger... Haven't you ever seen the original "Flight of the Phoenix" movie with Jimmy Stewart???? They use gas shells to start that engine.

One of the greatest flying movies ever made. Don't bother with the pathetic remake. Watch the original. Just amazing!

Army... another one to keep you on the couch tomorrow if you haven't seen it. And, of course, Jimmy Stewart 'was' Army Air Corps (until 1949 at least...)

Cheers,

Sirhr

Free on YouTube though the resolution isn't great!: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxJNxrZCboY

I think the Corsair, Whistling Death version, had a shotgun start system as a backup. Some vid I saw claimed the shells were becoming exceedingly rare.

 

[ArmyJerry]

Yep but that is not what I was using at WSMR, at WSMR we were testing 3 generations from then which is still a generation away. The m163 is a badass weapon, half AD half just fk everything up, PIVADS even better, but nothing like what come s next. Think aim 9 with 40mm, mini patriot radar, 45-60 MPH chassis.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

I think the Corsair, Whistling Death version, had a shotgun start system as a backup. Some vid I saw claimed the shells were becoming exceedingly rare.

A little help from Google and I came up with them as being Coffman Cartridges. They were used on a lot of planes, including some Spitfires. Even used on some jets. They didn't fire right into the cylinders, though, but drove a rod that spun a ring gear. Interesting system!

The Cartridges are 20MM in diameter and are filled with Cordite. The diameter is about 1/4mm off from 10 gauge... so for all intents and purposes, they seem to be 10 gauge blanks.

Very cool!

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[pmclaine]

A little help from Google and I came up with them as being Coffman Cartridges. They were used on a lot of planes, including some Spitfires. Even used on some jets. They didn't fire right into the cylinders, though, but drove a rod that spun a ring gear. Interesting system!

The Cartridges are 20MM in diameter and are filled with Cordite. The diameter is about 1/4mm off from 10 gauge... so for all intents and purposes, they seem to be 10 gauge blanks.

Very cool!

Cheers,

Sirhr

A bird hunting/USMC pilot like Ted Williams might have some splaining to do if he mixed up his anti goose loads with his Coffman cartridges.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

A little off topic but my Pop worked at Alameda NVA getting Skyraiders ready for use in the 1960s. He would let me play in the cockpit with a coworker watching me while he waited in line for his paycheck. It was worth the drive through Oakland. Even better than going to the Montgomery Wards to see black people.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

BTW, I think a couple F16s killed one ROMAD and injured another at White Sands not too long ago. So, calling in an air strike on yourself apparently is still a real possibility.

F16 and the warthog are fine but working with the ANG and their A37 was more fun. So, keep the skyraider, warthog, and a vote for the dragonfly. But come on, working with a hardened crop duster is the bomb.

 

[Dougie308]

A-10s fly practice runs in the area around my property in Southern MO on the Black River and it is a sight to behold. Literally at treetop level I never hear them until they are right on me. They often do simulated gun runs so low they have to pull out to clear the ridges. It's cool to watch.

However, if price is a factor the props are a lot cheaper to run and maintain. They can be loud. But in a hilly area they would be equally hard to deal with as the ridges mask sound very well.