Sidearms & Scatterguns New Custom *Prototype* Knife! *UPDATE 1/31*

[ceylonc]

<span style="font-weight: bold">**UPDATE 1/31: FLAT GRIND PROTOTYPE HAS ARRIVED! SEE LAST POST IN THREAD. THANKS!**</span>

Back in October I started a thread (see below) where I was seeking opinions from you guys regarding a custom knife. The maker approached me about marketing/selling his creation, and I was looking for opinions regarding it's design, viability, etc. Well, you guys were GREAT in sharing your thoughts & opinions, and right now this builder is back to the drawing board in order to tweek the design, pricing, workmanship, etc. See link if you want to check it out...

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...rue#Post3621528

Ok, now for a <span style="font-weight: bold">NEW</span> project that I'm considering and hopefully the crew here will be just as forthcoming with opinions, thoughts, etc. I am <span style="font-style: italic">again</span> looking at adding a new line of CUSTOM KNIVES for deltaoutdoorsman.com. These will be our "exclusive" offering, and the hope is to come up with 3 models to bring to market. Please note that I have NOT committed to this knife. I'm just looking at doing something a little different, with the hope that the guys here on the 'Hide (and my customers in general) will appreciate that we want to be more than just a backpack/bug out kit company.

Ok, some details on the knife:

--100% custom build, but just a 2-3 week leadtime once ordered;
--5160 Carbon Steel, sourced out of New Jersey (NOT China, etc);
--Hand Tempered;
--Flat or Hollow Grind, can be spec'd by the customer;
--Kydex Sheath, molle compatible;
--Micarta handles, can be Black, Green Canvas, OR G10 in Multicam, Coyote Brown, etc. (customer spec'd);
--Overall length: 9.25";
--Blade length: shade over 4.25";
--Blade Thickness: 3/16";
--Weight: 8 oz. (approx);

A little about the builder, his name is MSG Kim Breed out of Clarksville, TN. He is a former Green Beret (ret.) and currently writes for Blade Magazine, among other associated publications. He has been building knives for a while & even has some designs that are being produced by makers such as Spartan, etc. He has been kind enough to listen to my "wish list" of features for an exclusive knife, and this prototype definitely has my interest.

Just like last time, I'd like to get your opinions, thoughts, and observations regarding this knife. I know seeing pics (and not having the knife in your hand) make this difficult, but I can tell you that the knife oozes comfort, quality, workmanship, strength and balance.

Lets get this rolling! Check it out & let me know what you think. Thanks for looking & hope to have a finished product to show you soon!

Ceylon
deltaoutdoorsman.com

 

[Luvman]

Re: New Custom *Prototype* Knife! Thoughts...

Good looking knife!!

In a knife that size I would like to see steels other than 5160. I'm a fan of 3V for its toughness and awesome edge retention. It does drive the price up though.

I'm glad to see a flat grind as an option as I have no use for a hollow ground field knife.

 

[dragbag]

Re: New Custom *Prototype* Knife! Thoughts...

Not a fan of 5160.

I like the profile but wouldn't call it a Bugout knife. To me its more on the lines of an EDC.

 

[tansinator]

Re: New Custom *Prototype* Knife! Thoughts...

Good looking knife Ceylon. What would be the approximate price point? or did I miss it


Thanks

Eddie

 

[macman2564]

Re: New Custom *Prototype* Knife! Thoughts...

Looks much better than the last one. Much improved I would say.

 

[ceylonc]

Re: New Custom *Prototype* Knife! Thoughts...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tansinator</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good looking knife Ceylon. What would be the approximate price point? or did I miss it


Thanks

Eddie </div></div>
Thanks for the opinions & suggestions! Keem 'em coming...

Working out final details regarding price point but it will definitely be below $300.00 with free shipping. Again, the buyer will be able to spec a number of details and a molle compatible Kydex sheath will be included.

Anything brought to light here as far as making this the most bad ass knife (as possible) is going to be discussed with the maker (Kim Breed). So, this is still a prototype and changes/additions CAN be made at this time.

Thanks guys, and rest assured there <span style="font-weight: bold">WILL</span> be 'Hider pricing & maybe even a promo once the knife is ready for prime time!

 

[a1-equipment]

Re: New Custom *Prototype* Knife! Thoughts...

Nice blade design +1 for the looks more like Edc blade not a fighter.
Also can the idea 5160 if you want 300 for it. 300 is strider range. Kim has a good name in the hard core knife world but not to average higher end knife buyers

Tops knives and blind horse( very similar blade styles) uses a carbon steel and they can
Be bought for 200ish

Personally I would like to see some scolloping on the spin something to make it
stand out from the rest of the pack.

On a blade like that style you also have the esee rat knives that are very economical

So from a business pitch point why Is a buyer going to
Buy one instead of a strider, esse, tops ect??

 

[simmy952]

Re: New Custom *Prototype* Knife! Thoughts...

I am in need of a good knife. Let me know when I can order one.

 

[dragbag]

Re: New Custom *Prototype* Knife! Thoughts...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: a1-equipment</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nice blade design +1 for the looks more like Edc blade not a fighter.
Also can the idea 5160 if you want 300 for it. 300 is strider range. Kim has a good name in the hard core knife world but not to average higher end knife buyers

Tops knives and blind horse( very similar blade styles) uses a carbon steel and they can
Be bought for 200ish

Personally I would like to see some scolloping on the spin something to make it
stand out from the rest of the pack.

On a blade like that style you also have the esee rat knives that are very economical

So from a business pitch point why Is a buyer going to
Buy one instead of a strider, esse, tops ect??


</div></div>

I agree with you on everything except the scalloping. 1) That is more time into the knife which means more money. 2) I believe that this is designed to be a working knife not a show piece. So maybe that could be an option if desired but for the average its really a waste of time and money.

 

[Derrick300]

Re: New Custom *Prototype* Knife! Thoughts...

Looks nice and beefy...

 

[Quarter Horse]

Re: New Custom *Prototype* Knife! Thoughts...

The new design is a vast improvement over the first. If it is designed primarily as a tool (EDC) and a last ditch weapon the overall design is good. If it is designed first as a fighter and secondarily as a tool it needs some changes.

I will address the design as a fighter. The technique in use governs design so I will specify that the fighting technique begins with slashing as it is the easiest to learn and still be highly effective.

The blade length needs to be at least 5 1/4" and up to about 7". Bigger is better. The point of the knife needs to be approximately on the axis of the center of the knife for control if stabbing. Your proto is pretty close. The knife would need a full guard. The grip should be smoother and with more of a hook at the pommel. The allows the hand to be moved further back on the grip and still hold onto it. The rearward grip puts the balance forward and that generates more force and blade speed. In thinking about the grip relate it to a good hammer. If you move your hand back on the hammer you hit with much greater force and the flared design of the butt keeps the hammer firmly in your hand.

Carbon steel for the blade is not a negative but at your stated price point buyers will expect something more. Remember that most steels become more brittle as the hardnesss increases as well as becoming more difficult to sharpen.

There are more intricacies of design but the above covers the basics. Just my thoughts.

 

[aqualung]

Re: New Custom *Prototype* Knife! Thoughts...

Like the look of it, but as has previously been stated, this looks to be an EDC knife to me. I'm thinking of buying 1 as a hunting/general purpose knife.

My only concern is the thickness of the grip. I have quite small hands and the grip looks quite thick/hefty to me.

Can I just ask, is that a Hamon line on the blade? Are we looking at differential hardening?

Kim Breed is well known to me. I have no doubt that this will be a quality product.

Keep me in mind when the finalised version is available. Seiously interested in owning one of these.

Neil

 

[ceylonc]

Re: New Custom *Prototype* Knife! Thoughts...

Thanks guys for the advice & suggestions. I now have a little file of notes that I'm going to address when I talk to Kim Breed later this week. I should know what is/isn't doable soon.

Maybe this turns into 2-3 models based on the overall design??? I'll keep this thread updated as news comes. My hope is that this goes from prototype to ready for prime time model within a few weeks.

More ideas, suggestions, <span style="font-weight: bold">PLEASE</span> share them here! You guys have been very helpful & my goal is to bring to market what YOU want!

 

[Hawk45]

Re: New Custom *Prototype* Knife! Thoughts...

Nice design, like the hammon and shape.

 

[Tahoe333]

Re: New Custom *Prototype* Knife! Thoughts...

Placed an order for mine.
I would like to see a "line" run from the tip of the knife through the middle of the rear handle and it dissect the center of where the knife base meets the blade. (is this called drop point) somewhat of slight rounded hook at the rear of th handle. And take out most of the bulge in th handle.

 

[dragbag]

Re: New Custom *Prototype* Knife! Thoughts...

Put a straight edge up to the picture and you will accomplish the same thing.

Yes it is a drop point design.

There isn't much "bulge" in the scales so basically you want flat scales.

Why would you place an order for a knife you do not like the design of?

 

[L3IRQ]

Re: New Custom *Prototype* Knife! Thoughts...

No comparison between the first one and this, definitely VAST improvement, same thing as the other guys though I would prefer a different steel for the price.

 

[Turk]

Re: New Custom *Prototype* Knife! Thoughts...

Just for clarification; what exactly does "sourced out of NJ " mean? Made in USA or not?

 

[Drifter]

Re: New Custom *Prototype* Knife! Thoughts...

That is a very nice blade, well made , and there sure as shit is nothing wrong with differentially heat treated 5160. That steel has earned many ABS members their MS ratings, no question it is a tough blade that will hold a wicked edge while taking abuse that most guys will never put their knives through.

I would love that blade with some burl scales and a leather sheath.

For the Hide I think a better bet would be a high tech stainless tactical styled blade, with the kydex sheath and composite scales. That doesnt look nasty enough.

A hit here would probably look more like this. (not sure of the details just a pic)

 

[ironman23]

Re: New Custom *Prototype* Knife! Thoughts...

Looks great, but wish it had a tanto point (or an option for one). I'm a big fan of the tanto, from a strength point, as I tend to use my knives to pry with at times. I've snapped the fine tip off of a couple of blades before (non-tanto tip) and it makes me sick when that happens. Again though, a very well done piece!

 

[dragbag]

Re: New Custom *Prototype* Knife! Thoughts...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Turk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just for clarification; what exactly does "sourced out of NJ " mean? Made in USA or not? </div></div>

Sourced out of NJ to me anyways means that it was bought in whatever quantity from a retailer or wholesaler that is based in NJ. It doesn't to me anyways mean it was made in America. If it was indeed made in America why wouldn't that be stated?

 

[ceylonc]

Re: New Custom *Prototype* Knife! Thoughts...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Turk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just for clarification; what exactly does "sourced out of NJ " mean? Made in USA or not? </div></div>
Based on my conversation with Mr. Breed, his said that he buys his steel from a wholeseller out of New Jersey. I don't want to <span style="font-style: italic">assume</span> that this means the steel is from the USA or is imported by the New Jersey company. I am 95% certain that Breed is using USA steel but I am not 100% sure yet. I'll get clarification when he & I speak later today, but I'm confident that this can be labeled as <span style="font-weight: bold">MADE IN THE USA</span>.

Mr. Breed is out of Clarksville, TN and does all his own work. He is not outsourcing the manufacturing.

 

[dragbag]

Re: New Custom *Prototype* Knife! Thoughts...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Drifter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> there sure as shit is nothing wrong with differentially heat treated 5160. </div></div>

On the differentially treating, I have talked with several very respected makers and all have told me that you do not want the hamon line to be a straight line down the blade. That is why you see on well made knives a wavey line down the blade.

I don't think anyone is calling 5160 junk, just that they rather see a different steel or Stainless being used.

 

[Drifter]

Re: New Custom *Prototype* Knife! Thoughts...


Im with you Dragbag.
I agree a stainless blade in a little different config would be a better seller.

The 5160 with hamon is just a sweet thing to me, Im a knife maker as well and know what it takes to finally get that right. I would guess many guys really don't understand whats going on there, but hang up on the fact it is not stainless.

Whatever the final decisions are he will surely turn out a great knife, I was looking at a bunch others he has made last night. Great looking knives.

 

[Tahoe333]

Re: New Custom *Prototype* Knife! Thoughts...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dragbag</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Put a straight edge up to the picture and you will accomplish the same thing.

Yes it is a drop point design.

There isn't much "bulge" in the scales so basically you want flat scales.

Why would you place an order for a knife you do not like the design of? </div></div>

I posted "Place an order" because it is a good looking knife and I would not mind owning one.
I used a piece of paper to check the drop point and it appeared a bit off to me. I am not a fan of palm swell.
The suggestions were just my opinions and I would purchase another knife if the changes were made.

Why not have as many knives as you like?

 

[dragbag]

Re: New Custom *Prototype* Knife! Thoughts...

The key word in your question is "Like". I have a lot of knives I like them all or I wouldn't have bought the. I have passed on a lot of nice knives that just didn't have what I like.

 

[RollingThunder51]

Re: New Custom *Prototype* Knife! Thoughts...

That design is best suited for food preparation.
It would be great for slow work that requires light probing and tip slicing. It would not be a design for heavy cutting requiring great force. I would be poor for hard penetration jabs and not a choice for defensive or offensive work.

Here is why:

Your designer appears to struggle with understanding rudimentary knife design when it comes to bringing great force to bear. Start with finding the centerline of the handle. The photo work below will overemphasis this point because of the angle of the shoot and the width of the handle scales, but you will get it. The centerline or "castline" is determined by the lower part of the scales, not the top, as the fingers control the castline of the blade, not the palm.

Now we measure from the all important cast line to the cutting edge of the blade. This determines rotational force or "twist force" when you are working with the blade. The wider this dimension, the more torque is exerted on the hand when working the blade hard.

The control of the blade in maintaining all the force on the blade is best had when the base line of the handle is as close to the cast line as possible. That insure minimal twist torque and maximum control. When the blade extends below the lower line of the handle, great force is generated to twist the blade.

It should also be noted that the vast majority of all control over the blade's cutting surface is controlled by the area where the thumb is directly across from the pointer and center finger. The ring finger and pinky only come into play in control thrust. Unfortunately, in this design, material is removed right where it is needed, first fingers are separated and firm grip is lessened. This is a design that is used to do delicate point cutting work where the pointer and middle finger are rotating the handle. It is a drop knife blade used to carefully cut and gut game. Now if this designer thinks that dropping the handle's heel will make up the difference, he has only shifted the cutting force up the blade twords the tip and, as a result, cut his forces in half.

Lets take a look at another, more traditional blade to get a sense of all of this.

Thrust centered to grip
Cutting edge inline with lower fingers
Sharpened swedge, delayed lead in to force lower edge to ride up.

Forces are all in line, allowing for controlled cutting, controlled stab and controlled up sweep.

IMO, his "new: design is an improvement from the first one. He has some work to do on understanding the role of the shape of the scales and overall quality of grind and finish.

Let apply what we have learned to his design. I'll add two things as well, a slight belly to the rear of the blade to "catch" anything worked hard in this important area and I'll straighten out the drop point and sharpen the swedge.

If it was me, I would find somebody else.

 

[ceylonc]

Re: New Custom *Prototype* Knife! Thoughts...

Update!

Check out the pics below:

As you can see on with the blade to the left, I now have a Flat Grind prototype. REALLY like it a lot! Mr. Breed tweeked the knife a bit from the Hollow Grind version that is pictured on the right. Which is better, who is to say. I think a LOT comes down to personal preference, as both share the same steel & overall design.

Based on my last conversation with Kim Breed, I think we're going to offer <span style="font-weight: bold">BOTH</span> the Flat AND Hollow grind as options. Being that this is a custom knife, Mr. Breed will make whichever one you (the customer) wants. We're still finalizing other customization options, but a final blueprint should be available in the next week or so. Turn around time will be 2-3 weeks from the time the order is made with your build specs to the time it should be shipping to the customer's door. Base + options pricing is still being worked out as well, but good news is it looks like we're going to be able to stay under the $300.00 threshold (customization can influence the total).

Of final note, Mr. Breed is also going to allow us to offer <span style="font-style: italic">TWO ADDITIONAL</span> models that he has been putting together. One is his Fighter knife, which won a Best Tactical at a big show in Ohio a few months back. There is also going to be a basic neck knife that is very lightweight & large enough to skin a deer. Pics to follow later tonight in a separate thread here...

Thanks for your help & participation in bringing these knives to market!!! Please share you comments, ideas, etc (good & bad) as your suggestions here are helping Kim & I tremendously.

Ceylon
deltaoutdoorsman.com

Pics below are of the Flat Grind model (on the left) & some side by side with the original Hollow Grind (right):

 

[ceylonc]

Re: New Custom *Prototype* Knife! Thoughts...

Quick update...

I shipped both of these prototypes back to Kim Breed yesterday. He will be showing it at the Little Rock Custom Knife show next weekend, if you want to personally evaluate both that knife & the others he has sent to me.

Final specs & details are being worked out now as far as bringing a "base" version of this blade to market. The customer will be able to customize different aspects of the knife, such as scales, sheath, finish, edge, etc. Once I get that info from Mr. Breed, I'll update this thread & put together a 'Hide member deal for those of you interested in picking one up. <span style="color: #000099"><span style="font-style: italic">I still haven't decided on a name for this knife, so if you have any suggestions PLEASE post them here!</span></span> While I don't have a final price yet, the standard model WILL be priced <span style="font-weight: bold">UNDER</span> $250.00 for the promo.

Thanks for your help, advice, comments, and opinions regarding this project. Hopefully we'll have a REALLY cool knife for you guys in the coming weeks.

Ceylon
deltaoutdoorsman.com

 

[ceylonc]

Bumping this thread with an update.

This prototype has been finalized & NOW AVAILABLE FOR ORDER!!! We're calling it the Kim Breed Utility EDC Knife, and are running it at a promo price of $224.00 SHIPPED in the USA. There are several options you can custom spec, and turn around time from order to knife delivery should be around 15-18 days. I've got two versions right now & have decided to keep them for personal use. Guys, you won't be disappointed with the design & quality Mr. Breed is putting into this blade.

If you're interested, check out the link to the thread below:

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/options-accessories-sale/182118-kim-breed-utility-edc-knife.html

Thanks for looking & helping us bring this blade to market!
Ceylon
deltaoutdoorsman.com

 

[EXTREMEPREJUDICE]

Ok, I just placed an order...............it better be nice or I'll have to come to Tennessee and give you a visit!

 

[29aholic]

I agree with others, it is a fine looking knife but it is not a fighting knife but more of a nice utility style. In that respect I like a hollow grind as is facilitates in cutting. I would not hesitate to use a knife like that in the backwoods as a hunting/camp knife. For possible CQB confrontations I would prefer a longer blade, full hilt (can be in the blade grind), and an extended "skull crusher" type tang. I AM happy to see a design that does NOT include blade serrations.