New handloader, please help diagnose!

bm11

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jun 18, 2010
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Maine
OK,

I am very much new to this. I have been reading for the last half a year or so, bought the equipment two months ago, and just started reloading a week ago.

Reloading for .308, I did a small ladder test on Sunday that showed promise with 43.0 grains of RL-15 over a CCI 200, seating a 175 SMK at 2.81 OAL. This was using twice fired Gold Medal brass that had previously been prepped and reloaded by jbell (a member here) who has much more experience and knows much better what he is doing.

Anyhow, after the test showed that 43.0 grains should be where my accuracy node is (I went up to 44.0 grains, zero pressure signs but I stopped there.) I loaded up 25 rounds that night for group testing at the range the next day, all loaded to 2.81 OAL.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Here is what I ran into- shooting groups of 5, 4 would go into the same hole, with 1 round way out of the group, about .75 out.</span> I know that it wasn't me, I have enough experience on my rifle and am familiar enough with it to know that the shots weren't ones I pulled. This leads me to believe it was some inconsistency with my process- something was making that one round go outside an otherwise TIGHT group.

I didn't have a chrono to see if it was a muzzle velocity variance.

Here is my reloading process-

1.) I cleaned the brass with steel wool and a brush in a drill for the inside case neck.

2.) Sprayed the cases with Hornady One Shot.

3.) resized the neck of one case to .336- .003 less than a Gold Medal Match round measures at the neck.

4.) Tried to chamber it but it was too tight. Bumped the shoulder back with my body die set 1 full turn back from flush with the ram. Chambered fine, so I resized the whole batch for consistency with my body die.

5.) Neck sized the whole batch with my .336 bushing.

6.) Cases measured 2.018, didn't have a chamber measurement tool available, so I trimmed them all to 2.010

7.) Chamfered the inside of the mouth, deburred the outside of the mouth, uniformed the primer pocket, and cleaned off the sizing lube with lighter fluid.

8.) Primed with CCI 200 primers

9.) Threw all my charges at 42.8 grains and trickled up to 43.0 grains, using my digital scale as a measure. I thought the scale was accurate to .1 grain, but the resolution is actually to .2 grains.

10.) Seated the rounds using my Redding micrometer die.

11.) Inspected all of the loaded rounds, didn't see anything out of the ordinary.

Thank you in advance for reading my lengthy thread, I'm hoping you can help diagnose where I went astray. It could be that the load was off for my rifle, but if that were the case, I would expect more dispersion with the groups- not 4 shots in the same hole and 1 flyer way outside, correct?
 
Re: New handloader, please help diagnose!

One thing I forgot to mention- the rifle hasn't been cleaned in the last 500 or so rounds. I generally clean around 600 or so, but I just got a suppressor, the last 200 or so rounds were shot suppressed, and I'm not sure if that is having an effect on the build up in the barrel.
 
Re: New handloader, please help diagnose!

Do you have any idea how far you bumped your shoulders back? Remember that this brass was fired in the chamber of someone else first.

For what it's worth, I would stop adding steps by neck sizing, then body sizing when necessary. Instead, set up a Redding FL sizing die with the correct bushing, and set it to bump shoulders .001-.002". Also,
 
Re: New handloader, please help diagnose!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 42769vette</div><div class="ubbcode-body">how much time between shots? was the flier on the last shot? it could be that your gun is heating up. or vie versa was the flier on your first (cold barrel shot) </div></div>Flyer was randomly dispersed. Total time spent shooting the 25 shots was 20 minutes or less.
 
Re: New handloader, please help diagnose!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JPipes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you have any idea how far you bumped your shoulders back? Remember that this brass was fired in the chamber of someone else first.

For what it's worth, I would stop adding steps by neck sizing, then body sizing when necessary. Instead, set up a Redding FL sizing die with the correct bushing, and set it to bump shoulders .001-.002". Also, </div></div>I'm sorry for the way I worded it, but the brass was fired in MY rifle. I do not know how far back I bumped the shoulders. I don't believe I have a measurement device for that. What I did was this:

the brass was fired in my rifle, but would not completely chamber after neck sizing. I fitted my body die to the press, threaded it all the way to the shell plate, and then backed it out a full turn. My intention was to turn it in 1/8th of a turn at a time until I got it so the round would chamber with a bit of resistance, but after sizing with it set as-is, there was no resistance, so I just used the die set up that way. Thinking back, I would have been better off to turn it back another turn and start over on another piece.

I agree on the FL die, I should pick on up and just use it.
 
Re: New handloader, please help diagnose!

Hello BM11,
While dialing in a few rifles I have had the same problems. It appears your prep is adequate, so what I do is, throw away that piece of brass associated with the flier. Maybe the neck is out of round, needs to be turned. This has helped me eliminate many fliers.

Gam
 
Re: New handloader, please help diagnose!

You need a Chrono. Even if you have a good reloading technique there will be a velocity spread of some amount and its helpful to know how much that is. It will also allow you to compare how much better your handloads are than factory in your rifle so you can get a measure of return on your investment and time plus allow you to prep longer distance loads.

How are you measuring how much you bumped back the shoulder ?

I'm no expert but i understand there are limitations to measuring OAL vs to the Ogive. Perhaps if you measured that you might find an inconsistency ?
 
Re: New handloader, please help diagnose!

First off, your reloaidng process sounds sound and is obviously producing good ammo. I definitely DON'T think your flyers are due to your reloading process. As to culling your brass, yeah sure you can do that--don't throw it out, just mark it somehow and sit it aside. In short order that will tell you if it is a brass issue.

I would bet a lot it is somehting to do with your shooting setup though, NOT your reloading process and resulting ammo.


When you are shooting tiny groups, '4 into one hole' and then get a flyer randomly, it is often due to altering your setup VERY slightly. The type of accuracy you are getting with 4 of those rounds is EXTREMELY good. You did not define your shooting setup, but it really can be as simple as you did not seat your rifle into the front bags the same way. Or you shot 4 of the rounds more 'free recoil' than the others, and several other factors. On precision front rests, you will notice that there is a stop, so you have your rifle the exact same distance forward into the rest, and presumably the bench. having your rear bag, sock, or whatever positioned just a little different can do it. I can tell you the main things guys who shoot great groups consistently do is: Be consistent!

One quick thing I will relate, I have a friend who almost always does this style--for groups on target from bench--shooting off of bipods attached to his front sling swivel, and a rear sock, bag or such. When shooting his whole setup is disrupted by recoil. He regroups, gets on target and fires again. He was frustrated by his groups on a particular day, and I suggested he try this just to see if it made any difference.....I took a couple of clamps that I always have in my truck, and clamped a pr of 2x4's down onto the bench close to where his bi-pod needed to be for him to be on target. For each successive shot, he placed the legs of his bipod into the 'corner' of these two boards, and his groups tightened up a LOT. So, in this case, simply improving the consistency of his rifle/rest setup helped his grouping very noticeably. He was also able to 'load' some tension into the legs of his bipod every time also, which I personally feel helps consistency when shooting from bipods, and it sure didn't hurt any!

Let us know a little about you shooting technique, and maybe we can help you pin it down--reloading process or not too!
 
Re: New handloader, please help diagnose!

Thanks fish for that info.

I have been battling the same issue as the OP. At first I was focusing on my reloads but have recently been looking at shooting technique.

Your post really has some food for thought on the whole setup consistency deal.
 
Re: New handloader, please help diagnose!

I'm betting its the suppressor. The people I shoot with that shoot a lot of suppressed .308 seem to have a fair amount of unexplained flyers as well as random pressure spikes. Look at your brass and see if you have any random ones that show pressure signs. Even better if you can match the brass to the flyer, but its probably too late at this point. I know a lot of people that shoot suppressed with no issues, but I also see a lot of people who do have issues. Especially after a long string ( >5) and the can really heats up.
 
Re: New handloader, please help diagnose!

Thanks for all the suggestions.

As for the chrono- the guy I shoot with 50% or so of the time has one, and I'll be able to check my loads with some luck on friday.

As for the bad brass- I didn't think of that. I should mark them.

As for my shooting technique- I was shooting prone with a rear bag. It had been suggested earlier in the shout box that it was me and not the ammo, but I have a fair bit of experience with this rifle and have not had an issue producing consistent groups with it using Gold Medal Match. Some are .25, some are .5, sometimes I'll mess up and shoot a .75, but those are rare. I can average .5xx inch groups at 100 yards with consistency, I have documented it ammo testing this and other rifles. The flyer was far enough out of the group that I am certain it wasn't my technique that fully produced it- at least not 100%. I could easily have thrown it .25 inches, but not .75-1 inch, if you follow me.

As for the suppressor suggestion- I shot one without as a control, and it also had the same flyer issue.

I prepped a bunch more brass last night and today. This brass was Winchester 1x fired brass (from this rifle) and I was able to neck size it only with a .333 bushing. I prepped it all the same way, but I measured all the powder with my RCBS 5-0-5 scale to see if it was a scale problem.

As for the suggestion that the OAL measurement is imperfect, I agree. OAL varies from round to round BUT the seating die seats off the ojive. Once I set the depth measuring OAL, all rounds were seated to the same die setting, not to the same OAL. So all bullets should be consistently the same jump to the lands.

I am also going to clean the rifle tonight, as well as test some loads in my TRG when I go tomorrow. I will update this after.

Thanks again for all the input thus far,

-Bob
 
Re: New handloader, please help diagnose!

bm11,

For the most part it sounds you are doing everything correctly, mostly.

But, two things: 1) chrono is least of your worries, as of now. I would re-shoot those loads at 300yds or more. Where you CAN'T see the group size or whatever. If you have four almost touching and one 3-4 inches away, Consistently, then I would be concerned about non-shooter variables (suppressor, reloading technique, etc.)
2) not that this is immediately addressing your fliers but you have to get a measuring device for bumping that shoulder back. That turn the die back til' she chambers, is CRAP, and will only lead to case head separation.

I know you are convinced it is not you causing this. But there is no way to be 100% sure unless you eliminate that variable as much as possible. I think by doing #1 above it will help.
 
Re: New handloader, please help diagnose!

Have you had anyone else shoot the rifle and duplicate your flyer issue? If not, that's sometimes the best way to remove the shooter variable.
 
Re: New handloader, please help diagnose!

Bm11 When you separate your flyer brass if you can measure the neck with a ball micrometer to see if there is any large differences in neck thickness. Being greater difference in the flyer brass than the good. It may not be the answer but it would be interesting to see if there is a relation.
good luck Rthur
 
Re: New handloader, please help diagnose!

Thanks guys. No, I have not had someone other than me shoot these loads. I am pretty convinced it is not me because of the amount of quality groups I have consistently put out up until now. However, I am scheduled to shoot with a friend in a few days. If I don't solve this before then, I'll have him take a whack at it.

Swan- I agree that a micrometer FL die is a good idea, and I will be picking one up. At that point, I will probably move to FL sizing only, as I don't like the idea of loading rounds that might potentially not load into a dirty chamber.
 
Re: New handloader, please help diagnose!

Hmmn. Junk accuracy (moa or so) with all the loads tested today. Back to the drawing board!

Also had an epiphany on the way home from the gym- why bother working up a load for this barrel when I will be sending it out to be cut down in length soon? Moving on to developing loads for the TRG...
 
Re: New handloader, please help diagnose!

ONe way to eliminate the shooter and point the finger of blame towards the ammo is to get a couple boxes of FGMM and shoot them in 5-shot groups. If these show no fliers, its the reloads. If these show fliers, its the shooter (or gun).
 
Re: New handloader, please help diagnose!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MitchAlsup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ONe way to eliminate the shooter and point the finger of blame towards the ammo is to get a couple boxes of FGMM and shoot them in 5-shot groups. If these show no fliers, its the reloads. If these show fliers, its the shooter (or gun). </div></div>Thanks. The reason I have been so quick to point to the ammo is that I have shot 2000 rounds of Gold Medal through this particular rifle, and am confident in my ability to shoot good (.5 or below) groups with it consistently.
 
Re: New handloader, please help diagnose!

Interesting addition to this thread-

I took out the same batch of 175's that I just tested in my AW (that shot like crap) and ran them through my TRG.

The TRG liked just about all of them. Average overall over testing was in the .6's, with the best loads performing in the .3-.4 range.

So, I don't think it is my technique loading, or my components, it is something about the AW.