New Lapua Long Range and Super Long Range (Announced)

[Rider47]

"there is very little to no correlation"
When I look closer, there seems to be correlation caused by the extreme ends.
(And this is all I'm really after - eliminating flyers.)
Note that I also shoot TARGETS to back check data. (The lot I have of C-X weighs and chronos well, but gives CRAP groups in my rifle.)

"Those are pretty poor R squared values so not sure what conclusions you can draw from this data."
Yes - Didn't I warn about this? But see above.
R2 goes to almost zero when low and high weight data is removed.

"Usually does more harm than good especially in the mental game"
What is tough mentally is not trusting my ammo. If I can reduce this distrust, LESS disruption to my mental game.

"You FUBARd a match. Move on. Don't overly stress it."
The dogs bites me once, shame on the dog, The dog bites me twice, . . .
Besides, a good outlet for my OCD. And I'm retired.

Guys - Perhaps I will be able to reduce the egregiously bad shots due to ammo with some type of sort, perhaps not.
I only publish this data to share info for those who are interested, not to try to convince anybody of anything.
I have no agenda for you.

 

[Rob01]

Your time and money to waste so do with it what you like. Just trying to help. I am retired too and have way more interesting things to do than that.

 

[Nik H]

"Those are pretty poor R squared values so not sure what conclusions you can draw from this data."
Yes - Didn't I warn about this? But see above.
R2 goes to almost zero when low and high weight data is removed.

An R2 at zero is even worse. You need an R2 of at least 0.6 or higher to believe that there is any correlation between the variables

 

[AirgunnerPCP]

"there is very little to no correlation"
When I look closer, there seems to be correlation caused by the extreme ends.
(And this is all I'm really after - eliminating flyers.)
Note that I also shoot TARGETS to back check data. (The lot I have of C-X weighs and chronos well, but gives CRAP groups in my rifle.)

I'm all for gathering data to draw conclusions to better inform decision making but the interpretations of the data need to be good. I think you're trying to grasp at straws to make the data fit your underlying assumptions. You have very low R squared values and no trends between datasets. This is saying that there is no correlation between your independent and response variables. Now maybe the next step is to test a larger sample size or different lots of the same ammo to see if there are some different conclusions to be drawn. But what you have here is telling you that sorting by cartridge weight shows no correlation to velocity.

Do what you want but, based on the data you gathered, you'd be wasting your time sorting by weight to reduce fliers.

 

[Rob01]

How does the R2 relate to the D2?

 

[Nik H]

How does the R2 relate to the D2?

No correlation....LMAO

 

[J_D]

Has anyone shot the LLR or LSLR at long range? 200yds+

I'll be shooting out to 500 this Sunday.

 

[littlesister]

Has anyone shot the LLR or LSLR at long range? 200yds+

I have shot nearly a brick of SLR this week. Most of my testing has been at 50 and 100yds but yesterday I took it to 200. I have to note I only have one lot of SLR but multiple lots of CenterX. When shooting against CenterX at fifty and 100 The SLR held its own. As I stated in a previous post The SLR seamed to show a bit less vertical than the centerX at 100. but not much. Things changed when I went to 200! Shooting it in my Muler barreled Vudoo 360 it fell apart. All my CenterX outshot the SLR as did a good lot of SK Match. Don't ask me why this lot of SLR would shoot at 100 then completely fall apart at 200. I have no answer other than the Muller just didn't like that speed of ammo at that particular range! My final take on SLR is that it's good ammo. Same level as CenterX and Eley Black Box. Is it really better long range ammo? No .It's basically CenterX with a few extra grains of power. More MV doesn't mean more accuracy. Any CF reloader knows this and it holds true in RF also.

 

[justin amateur]

Rimfire beyond 35 yards and those minor cartridge differences begin to affect results.
The longer the distance, the greater the time of flight, then wind, gravity and cartridge irregularities
each add to trajectory shift and accrue incrementally, until by the time you hit 200 yards
results on target are excellent examples of tolerance stacking and statistical anomalies.
4 years of 50 shot groups at 100 and 200 yards can be extremely educational.

 

[littlesister]

Rimfire beyond 35 yards and those minor cartridge differences begin to affect results.
The longer the distance, the greater the time of flight, then wind, gravity and cartridge irregularities
each add to trajectory shift and accrue incrementally, until by the time you hit 200 yards
results on target are excellent examples of tolerance stacking and statistical anomalies.
4 years of 50 shot groups at 100 and 200 yards can be extremely educational.

Well said JA. 200yd is well past the consistent accuracy range of the 22remfire. I also have been shooting at 100 and 200 for quite some time. Useless to test at 200 unless conditions are right. Have waisted a lot of ammo finding this out. Not really concerned with the size of the group though I do pay attention to size, But will the ammo group period! If it's all over the place. Forget it. If it puts 10 in a well defined group. It has potential.

 

[J_D]

Got some decent testing done, and the SLR in my guns worked very well. Even got the fiance' out to try it in her CZ too.

 

[ma smith]

Thanks for everyone posting targets and Chrono.

Testing in this thread (from various parties) appear to demonstrate MV variation is fairly good-- around 7-8 SD range.
Accuracy seems "about like center X" off the shelf (for better or worse).

Would be great to hear everyone's thoughts as more people keep shooting it.

 

[Mr. Z]

Spotted in the wild.
No, they don’t ship.

 

[Cowpokey]

Spotted in the wild.
No, they don’t ship.

View attachment 8082039

Price is a little high, not horrible, but more than it should be.

How much were the Blazers? I need to restock on those for our race guns.

 

[Mr. Z]

Price is a little high, not horrible, but more than it should be.

How much were the Blazers? I need to restock on those for our race guns.

I think they were $48/brick.
It ain’t the good old days anymore.

It’s a local mom and pop shop. I’m happy to pay a few dollars more in there.

 

[Cowpokey]

I think they were $48/brick.
It ain’t the good old days anymore.

It’s a local mom and pop shop. I’m happy to pay a few dollars more in there.

I don't mind paying more at a local small business, I even write them a check or go to the ATM for cash so they don't incur credit card fees.

 

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

The one thing that I say in the video review was the comment that the new Lapua bullets have less wax on them. I’ve got fat fingers and have wondered if when I’m putting rounds in magazine, if I’m spreading the wax where it shouldn’t be- or that the amount left- affects chambering and the internal ballistics. I was thinking of wiping the rounds before I load them to reduce the variability.

 

[Milo 2.5]

have wondered if when I’m putting rounds in magazine, if I’m spreading the wax where it shouldn’t be- or that the amount left- affects chambering and the internal ballistics.

I wonder the same thing, lol. Especially loading a 10/22 mag

I was thinking of wiping the rounds before I load them to reduce the variability.

Justin did, or was going to run a test doing the exact same thing, if you trust him, may be an easier route,

 

[justin amateur]

I'm waiting for a no-wind morning Milo.
50 shots with lube on the bullet, 50 shots with the lube removed.
Spring here in NE Florida means gusty mornings with the contrary fronts.
I'll get it done, when is the only question.

 

[Milo 2.5]

I'm waiting for a no-wind morning Milo.
50 shots with lube on the bullet, 50 shots with the lube removed.
Spring here in NE Florida means gusty mornings with the contrary fronts.
I'll get it done, when is the only question.

I'm patiently waiting, lol

I so want to have a 2500X built, feed it with a tweezers, never touching a rd by hand.
Then again, I am 64 and feel that I invented the phrase, "fuck it"

 

[MarkCZ]

We were at the range yesterday shooting some ELR 22LR. A friend had some Lapua Long range, he gave me a box to try. Not enough do a lot of shooting. I was shooting at 200yds, so I just started there. I shot 6-5 shot groups on steel, all ran sub MOA, with 2 of them were near 1/2 Moa. I have 20 rounds left for 50yds testing.
I have to get some of both, for more to testing.

 

[ToddM]

Might need to try some of this, I have a JP 22LR upper, and it sounds crazy since we hear most all the SK ammo is made on the same line just sorted different, but it dislikes SK Rifle Match, STD Plus, Pistol Match, Semi-Auto, but I've had 2 lots of SK Long Range and it's by far the best ammo I've tested in it, by a big margin, including Eley Match, Tac 22, CCI Std, Wolf, Lapua Midas, Center-x, Pistol King, Fed Automatch, RWS R100, etc. SK Long Range is the only ammo it's ever consistently shot sub 1" groups at 50yds with.

In fact I have 2 of them (second one was a replacement for a .224 Valkyrie supermatch barrel JP could not get to shoot, and could not replace as they no longer make them), and they both seem to like SK Long Range better than anything else I've fed them, and they are both disappointing accuracy to say the least with anything but SK Long Range (ugly flyers in both). Not too surprising, even JP's manual for the barrel says not to expect anything better than 2-3 MOA with high velocity, 1.5-2MOA with match ammo, and possible 1 MOA with top end match ammo at 50yds.

 

[justin amateur]

Based on performance, the Long Range and Super Long Range
are repackaged CenterX as indicated by results on target and chrony numbers.

As commented here recently...

"Where'd all the CenterX go?"

"Lapua put it in boxes labeled Long Range and Super Long Range
then added 3 bucks to the cost per box."

The Marketing department at Lapua earned their bonus this quarter, eh?

 

[grauhanen]

Based on performance, the Long Range and Super Long Range
are repackaged CenterX as indicated by results on target and chrony numbers.

Seriously? The claim means Lapua is perpetrating marketing fraud.

A number of posts in this thread show chrony figures that contradict the claim that SLR and LR is simply CX repackaged.

Lapua makes other varieties of ammo that are nominally 1106 fps. So, too, does SK-- but on the SK production line.

As for performance downrange, there are reasons why one lot of .22LR match ammo may do better than another, regardless of whether its name includes "long range" or not. Those reasons don't include MV.

 

[justin amateur]

Marketing is about manipulating consumers into buying y'er product.

It's only fraud if you don't put cartridges in the box.

Same components as CenterX, same assembly line,
mv depends on barrel, variations in assembly and conditions.

Changing the name on the label is nothing new.
Standard business technique used by corporations to improve profits.

And yes, I am a cynical old coot.

 

[grauhanen]

It's only fraud if you don't put cartridges in the box.

Same components as CenterX, same assembly line,
mv depends on barrel, variations in assembly and conditions.

That's a rather narrow definition. Lapua's fraud would be claiming SLR and LR is a new 1106 fps variety when it's not new and nothing more than an old brand repackaged as something else.

Whatever MV resulting from conditions means aside, MV is something that can be purposefully part of a variety of ammo's characteristics. It's not happenstance or hard to achieve. Compare RWS R50 and R100. They have the same components but different MV.

Don't take the idea that Lapua simply selects the fastest lots of CX and repackages them as SLR or LR seriously.

Are you sure you're really a cynic? Cynics are negative, close-minded and think the worst. Skeptics are postive, open-minded, and not stuck in their beliefs.


.

 

[justin amateur]

Okay G, maybe I'm not as much a cynic as I am a skeptic.

 

[littlepod]

So when I test at Lapua the last 4 years, their lot #'s are 22xx to 29xx. That's across the Center-X, Midas, X-Act lines.

My different lots of Long Range go from 29xx to 37xx. So it is a totally different band of speed. I've never seen 37xx Midas+ before.

Why the first 2 #'s matter is what they chrono at... It is 3xx m/s. So 322 m/s to 329 m/s are different lots of CX, Midas, etc. And 329 m/s to 339 m/s is different lots of LR/SLR.

And yes, the formula still applies... they test a bunch of ammo, and it is grouped into X-Act, Midas, and Center-X.

And for the faster lines it is SLR -> LR.

 

[Cowpokey]

Based on performance, the Long Range and Super Long Range
are repackaged CenterX as indicated by results on target and chrony numbers.

As commented here recently...

"Where'd all the CenterX go?"

"Lapua put it in boxes labeled Long Range and Super Long Range
then added 3 bucks to the cost per box."

The Marketing department at Lapua earned their bonus this quarter, eh?

Lapua Long Range and Super Long Range are NOT repackaged Center-X. You don't magically sort 45fps higher MV off a line and have it stay consistent with Standard Deviation and Extreme Spread. Please stop spreading that lie, there are people on the forum gullible enough to believe your nonsense.

 

[justin amateur]

Okay CP, I can do that, when the results at the range indicate I should.

CenterX is rated 1073 fps.
Lapua Long Range is rated 1106 fps.
Super Long Range is rated 1106 fps.

33 fps difference according to Lapua's engineers.
3% difference in muzzle velocity from the test barrels.

Is that exactly identical? No.
Does that mean they are going to produce identical results? No.
Will the labeling guarantee the velocities obtained be consistent with each batch?
I've only tried one lot number of each...my results on target at 100 yards are similar to CenterX.
Waiting for a calm morning to try LR and Super LR at 200 yards to compare to CX.
Have they shown to be worth the extra cost per box? Not yet.

No worries CP.
I don't expect anyone to agree with my opinions,
I simply comment based on my experience with the product.

Same assembly line, same components, same results, so far
from CX, LLR and LSLR, 3% difference, 33fps in rated velocity.
Look at the average velocities from the last two boxes I shot.
1074 fps avg and 1071 fps average....do you see my quandary?

The whole box at 100 yards

I'm glad I found this. I incidentally I posted in the wrong thread(200 yard thread). My results were better than I thought. I also think I can improve on them and will do as such. It's just a Marlin Model 25. With a 4x Lyman scope. Shot off a bipod and rear bag. Eley Club was the ammo used...

www.snipershide.com

And as for Super Long Range...didn't even top out above 1101 fps.

The whole box at 100 yards

Lapua Long Range 22lr, rated 1106 fps CZ 455 Lilja, Sinclair Bipod, rear bag, 100 yards But with a slight twist... Start by cleaning all the lubricant off the bullets using turpentine and a cotton rag. Takes a bit of doing to remove it all from the knurling and cannelure. Blue ink on the...

www.snipershide.com

Based on the targets and chronograph numbers above,
does that indicate an all new product from Lapua?
Does the average muzzle velocity indicate something new and different?
Does the MV spread look to be capable of consistent sub-moa at 100 yards and beyond?



So far, what I see is relabeled CenterX,
not something all new and worth the price difference.

I can only comment on the things I actually try.
What I post is based on my personal experience with the product.
If things should change, I'll post that up too.
Why would I need to lie?
The real world data is available for all to find and draw their own conclusions.

Right?

 

[littlepod]

Do you have lot #'s? The Box tells you the tested velocity based on the first 2 digits of the lot#. It is possible to shoot a 29xx center-x and a 29xx long range.

 

[justin amateur]

LP, my two lot numbers

LSLR # 36557-607362. 1102 fps

LLR # 34557-607455. 1095 fps


Those factory numbers are derived from the average velocities
obtained during lot testing/statistical sampling at the factory.
Does that mean the entire lot will match those numbers?
Not from my experience. Too much variation in components and assembly.
All too often, factory testing doesn't match what is actually shipped.

 

[Cowpokey]

@justin amateur my chrono data is somewhere in this thread. 1071fps for advertised 1070fps ammo, and 1115 for 1106 advertised ammo. That's a bigger difference than 3%.

 

[Cowpokey]

I pose this question. What do you do with all the lots of xact midas and center x that test to fast to be in their prospective labeled boxes? You put it ina differnt box and relable it. There isn't new lines producing Super Long Range and long range they come off the exact same production lines as the others are.

I would guess if they are just "re-boxing" that ammo, they would put it in something labeled "semi auto" 1070 fps. I don't know of a line of Lapua that's labeled "semi auto"; I know SK and Eley has some though.

 

[Cowpokey]

I don't reload centerfire, so I'll just pose this inquiry; what extra powder charge would you need to propel a 40 grain projectile that extra (as advertised) 1070 fps to 1106 fps? Would it take a calibration change that could be dialed into the machine line that it comes off of? I would imagine the top of the line rimfire ammo (Lapua/SK/Eley stuff) has more in those machine set ups than just pulling rounds off the line and categorizing it 1106 vs 1070.

 

[justin amateur]

CP, went back through the thread and re-read as you asked.
The mv's vary depending on the rifle, conditions and box.
Some fit the label rating, some don't.
Numbers posted elsewhere on the web show similar differences.
Opinions are all over the place regarding the production quality.
If you got a good box you like it.
If you were shipped some that exceeded expected mv spread,
the opinions lean to the new labels being just that, a label change only.

It's rimfire, right?
What I was sold isn't going to be the same as yours.
Different rifles, different conditions, different cartridges means different results.

I was shipped cartridges that are similar to CenterX.
Others have received ammo that shoots like Biathlon.

Welcome to the assembly line lottery.
Some get lucky, others not so much.

 

[6.5SH]

CP, went back through the thread and re-read as you asked.
The mv's vary depending on the rifle, conditions and box.
Some fit the label rating, some don't.
Numbers posted elsewhere on the web show similar differences.
Opinions are all over the place regarding the production quality.
If you got a good box you like it.
If you were shipped some that exceeded expected mv spread,
the opinions lean to the new labels being just that, a label change only.

It's rimfire, right?
What I was sold isn't going to be the same as yours.
Different rifles, different conditions, different cartridges means different results.

I was shipped cartridges that are similar to CenterX.
Others have received ammo that shoots like Biathlon.

Welcome to the assembly line lottery.
Some get lucky, others not so much.

I assumed it was where their Biathlon went as it hasn't been available for a while just left over stock of the Extreme.

 

[ma smith]

@justin amateur my chrono data is somewhere in this thread. 1071fps for advertised 1070fps ammo...

I've seen a rifle that shoots faster ammo closer to nominal (99.8%) , and slower ammo further off, closer to 98.8% nominal...so its not fast vs slow barrel type of thing...its just lot to lot variation being its 22LR

 

[Jefe's Dope]

So I'm the only one to shoot a Tikka CF w/ a factory barrel?

 

[Cowpokey]

CP, went back through the thread and re-read as you asked.
The mv's vary depending on the rifle, conditions and box.
Some fit the label rating, some don't.
Numbers posted elsewhere on the web show similar differences.
Opinions are all over the place regarding the production quality.
If you got a good box you like it.
If you were shipped some that exceeded expected mv spread,
the opinions lean to the new labels being just that, a label change only.

It's rimfire, right?
What I was sold isn't going to be the same as yours.
Different rifles, different conditions, different cartridges means different results.

I was shipped cartridges that are similar to CenterX.
Others have received ammo that shoots like Biathlon.

Welcome to the assembly line lottery.
Some get lucky, others not so much.

You forgot that I have the same lot # of Lapua Long Range as you.

 

[Rob01]

You forgot that I have the same lot # of Lapua Long Range as you.

You mean the same lot of repackaged Center X right? Lol Come on we all know Lapua is a shady fly by night company that’s known for pulling the wool over the eyes of their customers and why no one respects them in the Rimfire game and no serious competitors use them. (For anyone who has a broken sarcasm meter that was a whole lot of it)

 

[Cowpokey]

@justin amateur you always want to argue about this stuff. I'm done with your bullshit. Go find another thread, or start your own. I have data posted, it doesn't line up 100% with your data, so you want to throw some more nonsense.

@Rob01 I get your sarcasm...some won't. Eley doesn't have the consistency it used to. The off brand re-boxed stuff like TAC-22, which is some version of RWS is fine for practice ammo, I wouldn't use it in a precision type rimfire game.

 

[justin amateur]

Argue? Argue means I know I'm right. Not so.
I question everything because I don't know.
When results differ from claims, I point them out.
Some folks are annoyed by my comments,
others agree, some laugh. I'm looking for answers.

I'll continue trying the new cartridges out and post the results elsewhere CP.
Ignore them if they are of no interest.
No worries.

 

[Cowpokey]

Argue? Argue means I know I'm right. Not so.
I question everything because I don't know.
When results differ from claims, I point them out.
Some folks are annoyed by my comments,
others agree, some laugh. I'm looking for answers.

I'll continue trying the new cartridges out and post the results elsewhere CP.
Ignore them if they are of no interest.
No worries.

On the contrary, "argue" doesn't mean you "know you're right"; it means you "believe you're right".

There is an old adage never more true than this: "Never argue with a fool, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." To refresh your memory, I posted data; which includes environmentals. I see you post your thoughts, but fail to provide actual data...just what you think, laced in with your emotional responses of "ammo lottery".

My guess, you're using entry level rifles, and not the same ones when you post your responses. If you keep getting data that is "all over the board", it's probably because you don't do consistent testing.

Are there inconsistencies with top grade rimfire ammo? Absolutely. Is it as bad as you make it out? Not at all. I'm surprised you even found this thread since it didn't have "CCI SV" in the title. You are very consistent shitting on every thread when CCI-SV is mentioned.

 

[Williwaw]

I assumed it was where their Biathlon went as it hasn't been available for a while just left over stock of the Extreme.

Unlikely since biathlon has a different bullet code.

 

[Cowpokey]

Unlikely since biathlon has a different bullet code.

It is different. The projectile has a slightly different profile, and supposedly a different lube.

 

[grauhanen]

Hate to be the one but they are repackaged center x and Midas plus. Nothing more nothing less.

It's conceivable that they are in the end repackaged CX and M+. But that leaves a question.

Riddle me this: if Lapua recently decided to repackage lots of CX and M+ that was "too fast" -- what did they do with these same kinds of lots before the advent of SLR and LR? Did they sell them as is and indicate MV in the lot numbers beginning 32xxx, 33xxx ...36xxx? Anyone ever see CX or M+ with those kinds of lot numbers?

Or in the spirit of fraud, did Lapua simply print more "usual" lot numbers, MV be damned? Alternatively, with the fraud line of reasoning, it's possible that there really are few lots of SLR or LR that are significantly faster than the 22xxx - 29xxx CX or M+.

 

[6.5SH]

Unlikely since biathlon has a different bullet code.

It is different. The projectile has a slightly different profile, and supposedly a different lube.

If Lapua is running at capacity it is likely where Polar's production time slot went if not a straight up repackage. A friend had lot testing done at Mesa in March 2022, he was told then they couldn't sell him any Polar for at least 2 years.

He was disappointed as the remaining lot of Polar he had shot better than any Center-X or Midas they had to offer then. He ended up buying two cases of the next best lot of Center-X.

 

[Budrichard]

Just got two bricks of Super Long Range and now on to testing at 200 yds with Ruger RPR and Zeiss S3 636.
WE shall see!!!!!
-Richard

 

[marc.south1972]

my RIMEX loves it but its harder to spot trace with it. Its much easier for me to see the TENEX ELEY ammo. i have a PRS match
this weekend out to 300 yards we will see how it does.