New long range shooter here, need advice

goodgorilla

goodgorilla

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Nov 16, 2013
425
1
Lecanto, FL
#1
Right now I am gathering all the equipment I need to get into long range shooting. My rifle will probably be assembled in about 8 months after waiting for the barrel and stock to be completed. But for accessories, what do I need? A few things that I know I need are something like this:
Kestrel 2500NV Electronic Hand Held Weather Meter

2. A chronograph
3. Something to measure ammo temperature.
4. Charts, what kind I don't know.
5. GPS and/or laser range finder. After doing some reading it looks like the Iphone can do GPS and other functions well? I don't have a gps or Iphone yet, but what are the chances GPS get replaced by Iphones?
6. Spotter scope (required? I doubt I will find a spotter soon)
7. Binoculars

I heard that a person should learn how to use a gps before going to the range finder. Any input will be appreciated.
 
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#2
Actually as a beginner, there is not one thing on your list that is needed.

Explain your level of experience, what kind of shooting and where, what will you be shooting, what gear you already own, whether or not you reload, etc. Once you set forth a little more info, you might get back some useful info.
 
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#3
19Scout77 said:
Actually as a beginner, there is not one thing on your list that is needed.
Click to expand...

That's good advice, that stuff is probably for 1000+ meters. I just thought starting working with the equipment early would be more beneficial later on and keep me from developing bad habbits. You're probably right I am getting ahead of myself, but I do have much time to kill waiting for the rifle. I do have a 22 that is almost ready. Here's a list of stuff I found:

1. Rifle Equipped with Optical Sight
2. Ammunition (100 rounds)
3. Extra Magazines
4. Earmuffs, ear plugs
5. Bipod (swivel type) - a. Harris -- Swivel 9-13" notch leg. b. Parker Hale M85 c. Versa-Pod d. M82 type
6. Sandbag
7. Rifle cleaning kit, lug grease , boresnake
8. Lens cleaning kit
9. Armorer's tools and scope tools
10. Ballistic Charts a. Primary Functions b. Secondary Functions c. Ammunition Burn Rate Conversion Charts / Tables d. Standard Pressures and Temperatures @ Altitudes e. Wind Correction Tables f. Calc forms g. Moving Target Acquisition Tables
11. Scientific Calculator / and backup pocket calculator (batteries)
12. Analogue Calculator / Mildot Master
13. Angle of Fire Indicator
14. Writing Utensils: 2 black pens, 2 red pens, 2 pencils, eraser
15. Logs a. Shooter's Log b. Ammo log c. Measured TRP dimensions
16. Notebook / Range Cards
17. Maps of AO
18. Lensatic Compass - Military Sighting Compass M4580
19. Barometer & Thermometer -- some Kestrel Pocket Anemometers have these
20. Backup Thermometer (non-electronic)
21. Infrared Thermometer (batteries)
22. GPS (batteries)
23. Spotting Scope w/ tripod
24. Binoculars
25. Laser Rangefinder (batteries)
26. Chronograph (batteries)
27. Ballistic Software device (batteries)
28. Drag bag
29. Nightvision equipment and Comm Gear
30. Drag Bag

19Scout77 said:
Explain your level of experience, what kind of shooting and where, what will you be shooting, what gear you already own, whether or not you reload, etc. Once you set forth a little more info, you might get back some useful info.
Click to expand...

Shooting experience: Growing up I shot pellet guns to kill squirrels and birds for several years. I have shot 22 rifles, pistols, and shotguns on several outings. I doubt paintball counts for anything, but I played paintball quite often for years.

Equipment: I have a new Remington 700 BDL 7mm rem mag, Ruger 10/22 customized with Nikon prostaff scope, reloading equipment for the 7mm (but I havn't used it yet, should be operating within the next 2 months). For the BDL I ordered a krieger 1.25 strait barrel, and a mcmillan a-5 stock. I have not yet purchased a trigger or a scope for the 7mm, but I am looking to buy a timney trigger, swfa 5x20 ffp scope, atlas bipod (to attach to the rail on the stock).
 
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#4
You need a laser range finder, a lot of ammo, ammo and then some ammo. Then some ammo. Get some ammo, and some more ammo. Remember ammo. Did you remember ammo? Ammo. Lastly ammo. And enough time (equals money) to go shooting regularly.
 
#5
First things,

Accuracy and Precision for Long Range Shooting, Litz
The Wind Book for Rifle Shooters, Miller
The Practical Guide to Long Range Hunting Rifles, Foster

These are just a few, nothing wrong with gearing up, but you dont want to be that guy with all the gear and no idea what to do with it.

If you do want and learn to use a Kestral, that would help out greatly. Learn how enviromentals will effect your trajectory. Try to guess the wind speed by using foliage and then compare with your kestral.

Log an account with G7 or other online ballistic calculators and learn how to use them. You can start with factory ammo and see how the wind, or temperature will affect the drop. Print out cards, so when you receive your rifle you can validate the info.

gseven - Ballistic Program
 
#6
No need for any of that stuff especially if you are a beginner. as 19scout said. What you need is range time, and more range time, and then a bit more time behind a rifle. Developing bad habits happens from bad fundamentals not buying stuff you don't need. Develop good fundamentals early.
You are over analyzing the shit outta shooting. Its real simple, 1: get rifle with scope 2: learn how to use #1 correctly 3: go shoot

With the apps and ballistic calculators out there these days, there is really not much need for 90% of that stuff on your list. I have my iPhone and my gun, that's all I need to shoot as far as my gun is capable. It does all the math, shows me ballistic charts, gives me my dope and can tell me my trued BC, muzzle velocity and many other things.

If you really want to buy stuff, buy me a S&B and call it a day. j/k but really if you want to buy some stuff, first do you reload? if so then a good chrono would be a good investment. A spotting scope isn't something you need at all. You should be able to spot your hits, see trace most of the time from 300+ (with good fundamentals). There is a lot of useless shit on that list, but hey who am I to tell you how to spend or how not to spend your money.
 
#7
Forgot to add a wheel barrel to carry all that crap.

How did we learn to shoot before the internet.

How did we shoot with out all those gadgets.

Here is a naval approach. Get some ammo, get a rifle with some sort of glass. Go out find a hill over looking a prairie dog town and start shooting. You'll get wind, you get slopes, you'll get a variety of unknown distances, you'll get small targets, you get still targets, you'll get moving targets and you'll get target detection.

Right out of the Army Marksmanship Units Sniper/Counter Sniper Guide:

Chapter 5 General Notes:

1. ….. The counter-sniper is a hunter and must use any and all tricks of the trade to assure a proper hit. The lives of fellow officers and that of the general public are at stake. Time is extremely critical, therefore, he can expect to be required to make shots at varying angles and distances on a split second’s notice. The hunting of varmints such as woodchucks, prairie dogs, and crows provides outstanding training because the techniques involved are almost identical.
Click to expand...
 
#9
Gorilla,

Your list, and the things you say make me laugh, and there's nothing wrong with that. You're just very new and have no clue how much you don't know about shooting. Notice, I didn't say long range shooting...

Long range shooting is about applying the fundamentals of shooting very precisely, with a fair bit of extra stuff to remember thrown in.

I'd recommend you learn the fundamentals of shooting with the equipment you have. Then start picking up info on long range shooting (learn to ride a bicycle before taking on motocross).

In the mean time, browse on here every night and you'll pick up a lot of good info that applies to shooting in general, and to long range shooting.

And now for the best advice you'll ever find on a gun forum...

Stay out of the equipment/gear/stuff threads for the first several years.

Your current equipment in my hands is many times more capable than my $5000 rifle in your hands. That's not a dig at you (we all started from scratch), but successful shooting is about skills, mindset, and knowledge, not equipment. So many new guys like you start of wanting to know what gear they need (I did too), but right now, gear has nothing to do with it.

Learn to master your 22 and your Remington.
Rangefinder or GPS?-- Borrow a tape measure. (I started with a 35 foot tape measure, and yes, it takes a while to measure to a 1000 yard target :) )
Chronograph?-- A chronograph will tell you where your bullets should impact. Firing your gun will tell you where they will impact. Which data is more important? Get out and shoot.
Something to measure ammo temperature?-- If that mattered (for 99%of us it doesn't), your ammo will be the same temperature as all of its surroundings. A thermometer in the air, or a rough guess should suffice.
Charts?-- You have a spiral notepad from school? Write stuff on it... you now have charts.
I could go on, but you get the point.

I really do wish you well, and feel free to pick brains here as long as you've searched the forum for the info first. You came to a good site for solid information.
 
#10
Well I actually feel relieved that I don't have to spend all the money at one time. So, I should get a chronograph, shooting books, a Kestral, and plenty of ammo. Speaking of Chronographs, anyone suggest a good one? The ones I see on Midway do not look portable.
 
#12
I just ordered Kestrel 3500 from Kestrel. Traid was out of stock, but they do have some ballistic paperwork that looks interesting. I am going to order the three books you mentioned. I'm guessing I will use the chrono and Kestrel for the ballistic software.
 
#13
I'll back up what everyone has said here from experience.
Last year got a nice Savage .22-250 and put a decent 6.5-20x Hawke Tactical scope on it and a Harris bi-pod.
Plus bought a bunch of 'stuff'...Kestrel, bubble levels, chrono, good spotting scope, etc.
Really....found the only thing 'necessary' (IMO) was the TAB rear bag.
Most ranges I've shot as had range flags...I know which way the wind is going.
My scope is powerful enough that I can use that to see where my shots are hitting.
But I have gone through a crap load of ammo...to the point that I can maintain 1MOA out to a decent distance (for me and this gun 500m).
It's taken me a year to be able to 'consistently' shoot what I feel are pretty good groups.
I am now just getting to the point where I feel I am capable to start worrying about crosswinds, shooting at elevated/depressed targets, etc.
I've got a lot of cool gear that has sat pretty much un-used for the last year, the money of which would have been better spent on ammo.
And as someone mentioned...I come here daily...it's maybe not as good as a good on hands course...but way better (IMO) than any book I've read.
 
#14
If you have a smart phone there is no need for logging info. There are free ballistic software a out there for drop 20$ on a really good one and call it a day. Do some research. Those books are good stuff, there is literately a metric shit ton of information on this website, read like crazy. A great place to start is fundamentals of marksmanship. I can't remember exactly where it is as the moment.

Range time range time range time, if there is no money or time for range time resort to dry firing. Which about 70% of my practice is drying and working fundamentals into muscle memory. The rest happens with stuff that goes bang.
 
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#15
Can't agree more with the folks who say "range time." I started shooting at age 9, and over the last 51 years of shooting the best training ground I ever found was indeed prairie dog shooting...I've killed tens of thousands of them...and the occasional dog-dog shot when I caught them chasing the livestock. Start with your .22 which is perfect for learning the craft. Start with iron sights and learn how to stalk and learn the fundamentals of marksmanship using (not so cheap anymore) ammo. Sneaking up on prairie dogs can be as tough as a Scout/Sniper School final because you've got not just two pairs of eyes looking for you, you have dozens and they are VERY attuned to what's trying to kill them. Nothing quite like low-crawling within 75 yards of a coteri of PDs only to have them all instantly disappear as you click off the safety. It'll teach you patience too.

I started with an iron-sighted .22 when I was 9 and graduated to a scoped .22 at 12, then when I was older I used a Sako .243 my dad built for me for deer hunting that allowed me to stand off from the town 3 or 400 yards and whack as many as I needed to without putting them all down immediately. In the end, as suburban development encroached on the ranch I switched to .17 HMR to prevent rounds from leaving the property. Better than a .22 but I still had to learn to stalk within about 120 - 150 yards.

PD shooting will teach you about point of aim, windage, trigger squeeze, hold-off, hold-over and pretty much everything you need to master before you try shooting at a grand.

When you can hit 10 out of 10 at 100+ yards with an iron-sight .22 then you're ready to upsize your caliber and extend your range because you will have the necessary habit patterns and skills you need to be effective. Long-range shooting is just close up shooting with more planning and absolute control and precision in rifle handling. Master that at short range and it all translates to long range quite well.

In other words, don't waste your money on ANYTHING on your list just yet. Shoot the crap out of your .22 until you're an expert at <100 yards and then think about upgrading. But don't go whole hog. Upsize your rifle and start shooting at 2, 3 and 400 yards without worrying about things like ammo temperature, spin drift or coriolis. There's a billion farmers and hunters out there who have never used a ballistics program who can drop an elk or deer at 400+ yards off-hand without thinking about it at all because their ballistic curve is burned into their brain for their favorite hunting round and rifle by repetition. When you can walk to the shooting point, take your position and nail the bullseye at any range out to 3-400 yards without thinking about it, you're ready to go long. But if you start long you will get frustrated very quickly as you wrap yourself up in the technology and spend all your time punching buttons and reading meters and trying to predict where your bullet is going to go when you'll learn a lot more by firing the round and seeing where it actually goes and then figuring out why it went there instead of where you intended it to go.

Don't get the cart before the horse.
 
#17
Before you spend any money on gear I would recommend taking a class at K&M. Since you live in Florida this should be pretty easy to arrange. Bryan and Shannon are great guys and have a ton of knowledge, plus the facility is one of the best. Give them a call as this will be the best investment you can make getting into this sport.
 
#18
Spend the money on a reloader! It will save on ammo. All you need is ammo like stated before, be able to read, and estimate some wind. .. use Strelok on an Android... it's free
 
#19
goodgorilla said:
Right now I am gathering all the equipment I need to get into long range shooting. My rifle will probably be assembled in about 8 months after waiting for the barrel
Click to expand...

I'm a new guy too, just curious why you decided to go with a rifle with an 8 month wait for your very first setup?
Also, I recognize Rex's list, I watched all his YouTube videos too before I even got behind my rifle and while I enjoyed them, they're largely irrelevant right now to me. I'm more interested in printing some decent groups at 100 and controlling recoil properly (form). After that, based on the videos, long range is just math (and wind reading).
 
#20
Today I was deer hunting and scouting some new land to shoot targets on the rest of the year. What did I grab.. The AR the range finder and my GPS, had the WI atlas in the truck to look up fire Lane numbers. That was mostly a quick land nav day, but it just goes to show you don't need every gizmo under the sun.

When I started the long range game I showed up with a .223, scope, and ammo. I reloaded all of my own from the get go. Being a poor college student at the time I built an f class bipod for my rifle and made any other odds and ends parts.

Go shoot a competition, f class is a great way to learn to read the wind. Targets are pulled after each shot and you get to see first hand what's going on. Remember smaller calipers are easier on the shoulder, the wallet, and you will get more "better" range time.

The best advise I heard from a friend when heading to my first match was "Believe half of what you see and none of what you hear." A lot of that applies to what is said on the internet.

Range time and the K.I.S.S method will be your friend.
 
#21
I went the cheaper and faster route, Savage LRP in 6.5 creedmoor, Vortex 6-24, harris bi-pod, tab bag. Done, now I've got a year of shooting matches under my belt and I feel like I'm starting to figure it out. Rifle shoots 1/2 moa if I do my part, the rest is on me.
 
#22
The VERY best thing you can get, once you have a rifle with scope is TRAINING.

Take a class. There are a number around. I did Bang Steel. I have heard good things about K&M, and several others.

But GO LEARN HOW TO DO IT THE RIGHT WAY.

Then shoot and shoot some more. Then YOU will figure out what YOU need.
 
#23
waveslayer said:
Spend the money on a reloader! It will save on ammo. All you need is ammo like stated before, be able to read, and estimate some wind. .. use Strelok on an Android... it's free
Click to expand...

I am doing that now, I have a rock crusher supreme kit, dies, holder, manuals, place to reload, imr 4350 powder, federal 215 primers, berger 180gr target bullets, norma brass, and soon to be bench.

Altnews said:
Can't agree more with the folks who say "range time." I started shooting at age 9, and over the last 51 years of shooting the best training ground I ever found was indeed prairie dog shooting...I've killed tens of thousands of them...and the occasional dog-dog shot when I caught them chasing the livestock. Start with your .22 which is perfect for learning the craft. Start with iron sights and learn how to stalk and learn the fundamentals of marksmanship using (not so cheap anymore) ammo. Sneaking up on prairie dogs can be as tough as a Scout/Sniper School final because you've got not just two pairs of eyes looking for you, you have dozens and they are VERY attuned to what's trying to kill them. Nothing quite like low-crawling within 75 yards of a coteri of PDs only to have them all instantly disappear as you click off the safety. It'll teach you patience too.

I started with an iron-sighted .22 when I was 9 and graduated to a scoped .22 at 12, then when I was older I used a Sako .243 my dad built for me for deer hunting that allowed me to stand off from the town 3 or 400 yards and whack as many as I needed to without putting them all down immediately. In the end, as suburban development encroached on the ranch I switched to .17 HMR to prevent rounds from leaving the property. Better than a .22 but I still had to learn to stalk within about 120 - 150 yards.

PD shooting will teach you about point of aim, windage, trigger squeeze, hold-off, hold-over and pretty much everything you need to master before you try shooting at a grand.

When you can hit 10 out of 10 at 100+ yards with an iron-sight .22 then you're ready to upsize your caliber and extend your range because you will have the necessary habit patterns and skills you need to be effective. Long-range shooting is just close up shooting with more planning and absolute control and precision in rifle handling. Master that at short range and it all translates to long range quite well.

In other words, don't waste your money on ANYTHING on your list just yet. Shoot the crap out of your .22 until you're an expert at <100 yards and then think about upgrading. But don't go whole hog. Upsize your rifle and start shooting at 2, 3 and 400 yards without worrying about things like ammo temperature, spin drift or coriolis. There's a billion farmers and hunters out there who have never used a ballistics program who can drop an elk or deer at 400+ yards off-hand without thinking about it at all because their ballistic curve is burned into their brain for their favorite hunting round and rifle by repetition. When you can walk to the shooting point, take your position and nail the bullseye at any range out to 3-400 yards without thinking about it, you're ready to go long. But if you start long you will get frustrated very quickly as you wrap yourself up in the technology and spend all your time punching buttons and reading meters and trying to predict where your bullet is going to go when you'll learn a lot more by firing the round and seeing where it actually goes and then figuring out why it went there instead of where you intended it to go.

Don't get the cart before the horse.
Click to expand...


I was planning to shoot my .22 way more often than the 7mm, I guess it's going to be more often than I thought.

Absit said:
I'm a new guy too, just curious why you decided to go with a rifle with an 8 month wait for your very first setup?
Also, I recognize Rex's list, I watched all his YouTube videos too before I even got behind my rifle and while I enjoyed them, they're largely irrelevant right now to me. I'm more interested in printing some decent groups at 100 and controlling recoil properly (form). After that, based on the videos, long range is just math (and wind reading).
Click to expand...

In the Sniper 101 series, there was one episode where the host went over ballistic co-efficients for various calibers and the bullet costs. After watching that episode, I was choosing between the .338 lapura, and the 7mm rem mag. Both rounds are notorious for creating a lot of kick, and kill barrels quickly. One good way to reduce kick is to add weight to the rifle, which the new stock and barrel do. Also, if you have a thick barrel like the strait 1.25 stainless steel that I ordered, it will increase barrel life also. After reading about reloading, gun design can alter your bullet ballistics, so I felt that it was smart to start learning the bullet ballistics for the gun I eventually intended to shoot. Maybe I was scared of the kick also. I thought about putting a muzzle break on there, but I read on several places that muzzle breaks put extra wear and tear on scopes. For the wait times, the barrel can take up to 9 months, and the stock 6. In the mean time I can shoot my 22, and read.
 
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#24
goodgorilla said:
I am doing that now, I have a rock crusher supreme kit, dies, holder, manuals, place to reload, imr 4350 powder, federal 215 primers, berger 180gr target bullets, norma brass, and soon to be bench.




I was planning to shoot my .22 way more often than the 7mm, I guess it's going to be more often than I thought.



In the Sniper 101 series, there was one episode where the host went over ballistic co-efficients for various calibers and the bullet costs. After watching that episode, I was choosing between the .338 lapura, and the 7mm rem mag. Both rounds are notorious for creating a lot of kick, and kill barrels quickly. One good way to reduce kick is to add weight to the rifle, which the new stock and barrel do. Also, if you have a thick barrel like the strait 1.25 stainless steel that I ordered, it will increase barrel life also. After reading about reloading, gun design can alter your bullet ballistics, so I felt that it was smart to start learning the bullet ballistics for the gun I eventually intended to shoot. Maybe I was scared of the kick also. I thought about putting a muzzle break on there, but I read on several places that muzzle breaks put extra wear and tear on scopes. For the wait times, the barrel can take up to 9 months, and the stock 6. In the mean time I can shoot my 22, and read.
Click to expand...

You must have more money to burn and longer ranges to shoot at then I. I went with the cheapest 308 that'd shown sub-MOA performance because the difference between calibers seems to just be math (and cost) if you're not going transonic with any of them and aren't worried about PBR. How far do you have to shoot? I'm jealous, I'm already wanting to build a 300WM and only have 100 rounds down range but it'd be silly to do it when I can't even max the 308 yet.
 
#25
Absit said:
You must have more money to burn and longer ranges to shoot at then I. I went with the cheapest 308 that'd shown sub-MOA performance because the difference between calibers seems to just be math (and cost) if you're not going transonic with any of them and aren't worried about PBR. How far do you have to shoot? I'm jealous, I'm already wanting to build a 300WM and only have 100 rounds down range but it'd be silly to do it when I can't even max the 308 yet.
Click to expand...

Money? Yeah, I just sold a bunch of collectibles, I am changing hobbies. I don't know how far I can shoot, but my step dad says I can shoot on one of his properties (which he agreed I can drop dirt there), and there are 2 gun ranges in my area.
 
#26
Graham has it right. You don't need much to start.
The best thing you can do for yourself is nut up and spend all the money on a high end scope. It makes life so much easier.
Then get good instruction

Other than that,
Range estimator (you ca get a mil reticle in your scope and learn the basics) or laser range finder
Kestrel but you can always learn the manual way by reading the landscape
Ammo
Water


Graham said:
Rifle.....check.
Scope....check.
Ammo....check.
Click to expand...
 
#27
drn1234 said:
Graham has it right. You don't need much to start.
The best thing you can do for yourself is nut up and spend all the money on a high end scope. It makes life so much easier.
Then get good instruction

Other than that,
Range estimator (you ca get a mil reticle in your scope and learn the basics) or laser range finder
Kestrel but you can always learn the manual way by reading the landscape
Ammo
Water
Click to expand...

I ordered a swfa ss 5-20 kit black Friday deal, I read somewhere that you can estimate range pretty well with a ffp scope like the one I ordered, I also ordered a mil-dot master.
 
#28
go through all the forum categories and start with reading the stickies, if they have them. There is a wealth of information. HOWEVER, don't try stuff that you don't know about. The reloading stickies are great, but if you don't know what to look for with pressure signs etc. stay at least a few grains under max book load limits, but not below ten percent (too weak a load can also cause pressure spikes), until you find a mentor. Read your how to reload primer in your reloading books, get more than one book. Practice with your .22 a lot. If you have a local range see if you can get involved, those shooters tend to be experienced, and best of all helpful. I have found that almost everyone here is helpful, but take everything with a grain of salt. There are some conflicting opinions and some threads get into crap slinging that would make bonobos wince. good luck, enjoy!
 
#29
Put that 5-20 on your 22rf for now and learn all the basics of long range with that. For instance it takes 14 mils to 300Y where I shoot using my 22. That's about the same elevation you'll be dialing your 5-20 when it's mounted on your 7mag for a 1650 yard shot. Then there is wind to contend with. 22's blow a lot in the wind so you'll learn how to read and compensate for different wind speeds and wind values. 95% of LR shooting with your 22 translates directly over to LR shooting with your centerfire.

I learned how to shoot a rifle with pellet rifles also and I still shoot them a couple times a week. They are the most under rated marksmanship training device period. I attribute what shooting skills I do have to practicing with airguns.

You'l need a good laser range finder to get accurate readings at distance. This is something you don't want to skimp on because the cheaper ones don't work well for long range, not powerful enough for non reflective targets. The 1500 yard rangefinders from Leica, Swarovski and Bushnell are decent. Ranging using the reticle gets harder the farther away the target is. Past 700Y on 1-2moa steel it becomes difficult because a small error in ranging like 25Y or .05 mil means you'll likely miss, also it takes practice to become proficient at it.

Good choice on buying the Kestrel. I consider it a must have. Getting Density Altitude with a Kestrel helps, especially the farther away from the muzzle you shoot.

Don't buy a cheap Chrono either! Myself and friends have found that out the hard way! You are better off backing your dope in using actual drops by adjusting FPS and BC in a ballistic program.

You mentioned a thicker barrel gets better barrel life which is not true. They do heat up slower though and are stiffer which helps offset longer shot strings. Barrel wear is a function of other variables, mainly pressure and heat.

Buy some AR500 steel for the centerfire, and little steels for the 22 and paint them white. You'll be able to see your impacts on the steel and they are much more fun to shoot than paper.
 
#30
goodgorilla said:
After watching that episode, I was choosing between the .338 lapura, and the 7mm rem mag. Both rounds are notorious for creating a lot of kick, and kill barrels quickly... In the mean time I can shoot my 22, and read.
Click to expand...

Not to mention the fact that .338 Lapua Magnum rounds are upwards of $4.00+ per round. Less if you reload. I shoot a Sako TRG-42 in .338 Lapua and it doesn't kick all that much because it has a great muzzle brake and it's a relatively heavy rifle. I have no problem shooting 50 or more rounds at a sitting, but then I'm 6'4" 225#.

The absolute worst kick I ever had was with the Cooper/Steyr Scout Rifle in .376 Steyr. I shot one at the range at the Soldier of Fortune convention in Las Vegas the year the rifle came out. Can't remember what year that was anymore. I was there with Col. Brown helping with the 3-gun Match and got the chance to shoot it standing off-hand. Thought I broke my clavicle for a minute. Being a six-pound rifle there was no mass to slow down the recoil. That was the year that the late Col. Jeff Cooper inadvertently left a loaded mag in the stock spare mag well during his lecture on the Scout Rifle concept. After the lecture, people were handling the rifle and dry-firing it when some doofus took the loaded mag out of the buttstock, put it in the mag well, chambered a round, then EJECTED the round, chambered ANOTHER round and then pulled the trigger, blowing a hole in the wall of the conference room, both walls of the custodial supervisor's office next door, and blowing a six-inch chunk out of a cast-iron sewer pipe on the other side of a maintenance area.

This is a perfect example of why you never, ever let your muzzle cover something that you're not willing to destroy. Fortunately the doofus didn't hit anyone. And Vegas being Vegas, where money talks, no cops showed up, no reports were made and the convention was welcomed back the next year. I have no idea how much it cost or who paid for it, but Dwight, the then-editor of SOF and I were standing in the hall when the round went off. We looked at each other and walked quickly away as casino security came racing down the hallway with med kits.

Col. Cooper never, ever talked about it and it was a bad idea to mention it in his presence.

I actually ended up buying a Scout Rifle in .308 Win, and I absolutely love it. Shoots inside 1 MOA at 986 yards. Light, short, handy and really safe with its Safe Bolt system, but it too kicks pretty hard.

But I digress.

Don't be afraid of the recoil, that's just technique. Be afraid of the outrageous cost of ammunition. I haven't shot my TRG-42 in a while because of the cost.
 
#31
steve123 said:
Put that 5-20 on your 22rf for now and learn all the basics of long range with that. For instance it takes 14 mils to 300Y where I shoot using my 22. That's about the same elevation you'll be dialing your 5-20 when it's mounted on your 7mag for a 1650 yard shot. Then there is wind to contend with. 22's blow a lot in the wind so you'll learn how to read and compensate for different wind speeds and wind values. 95% of LR shooting with your 22 translates directly over to LR shooting with your centerfire.

I learned how to shoot a rifle with pellet rifles also and I still shoot them a couple times a week. They are the most under rated marksmanship training device period. I attribute what shooting skills I do have to practicing with airguns.

You'l need a good laser range finder to get accurate readings at distance. This is something you don't want to skimp on because the cheaper ones don't work well for long range, not powerful enough for non reflective targets. The 1500 yard rangefinders from Leica, Swarovski and Bushnell are decent. Ranging using the reticle gets harder the farther away the target is. Past 700Y on 1-2moa steel it becomes difficult because a small error in ranging like 25Y or .05 mil means you'll likely miss, also it takes practice to become proficient at it.

Good choice on buying the Kestrel. I consider it a must have. Getting Density Altitude with a Kestrel helps, especially the farther away from the muzzle you shoot.

Don't buy a cheap Chrono either! Myself and friends have found that out the hard way! You are better off backing your dope in using actual drops by adjusting FPS and BC in a ballistic program.

You mentioned a thicker barrel gets better barrel life which is not true. They do heat up slower though and are stiffer which helps offset longer shot strings. Barrel wear is a function of other variables, mainly pressure and heat.

Buy some AR500 steel for the centerfire, and little steels for the 22 and paint them white. You'll be able to see your impacts on the steel and they are much more fun to shoot than paper.
Click to expand...

I have a little to say about most of your points here, probably because I am not totally awake yet. That's a good idea about putting the SS scope on the .22, but I wonder how long I should hold off on that because I already have a Nikon prostaff on it now. About the Steel targets, I will probably get some because my step dad and I are building a range over the next few months (dirt has been dropped already). The chrono I have in the mail is this one - Competition Electronics ProChrono Digital Chronograph
is that one decent? I saw the super-chrono, but I couldn't make myself spend around 300 on it because of all the little gadgets I need like that range finder. I intend to make a judgment on the range finder after shooting for awhile, at the same time saving up for it. I've pretty much exhausted my budget for all the gear I have now, accept for a few more basic things like noise blockers, gun case/bag, etc.
 
#32
goodgorilla said:
I have a little to say about most of your points here, probably because I am not totally awake yet. That's a good idea about putting the SS scope on the .22, but I wonder how long I should hold off on that because I already have a Nikon prostaff on it now. About the Steel targets, I will probably get some because my step dad and I are building a range over the next few months (dirt has been dropped already). The chrono I have in the mail is this one - Competition Electronics ProChrono Digital Chronograph
is that one decent? I saw the super-chrono, but I couldn't make myself spend around 300 on it because of all the little gadgets I need like that range finder. I intend to make a judgment on the range finder after shooting for awhile, at the same time saving up for it. I've pretty much exhausted my budget for all the gear I have now, accept for a few more basic things like noise blockers, gun case/bag, etc.
Click to expand...

Putting the 5-20 on your 22 will give you a early start with the nuances of a FFP mil/mil scope, like ranging, holding over, holding off, measuring how far away you are from a center hit in mils and making that correction, all this on any magnification. Also getting familiar with your ballistic program now is a good idea. Also you can learn to back your dope in using DA, while also adjusting BC and velocity. It's much cheaper learning on a 22 and of course it's a lot of fun!

I had a Prochrono but it broke after a while, this was before I shot long range so I don't know how accurate the FPS were with it. I've had 2 Chrony's and a friend had one, those are the ones that gave false numbers. I've got a Oehler which has worked great. Personally I'd send the one you have in the mail back and wait till you can buy a high quality chrono. For now back the dope in. What the bullet does in actuality at distance is what matters.
 
#33
steve123 said:
Putting the 5-20 on your 22 will give you a early start with the nuances of a FFP mil/mil scope, like ranging, holding over, holding off, measuring how far away you are from a center hit in mils and making that correction, all this on any magnification. Also getting familiar with your ballistic program now is a good idea. Also you can learn to back your dope in using DA, while also adjusting BC and velocity. It's much cheaper learning on a 22 and of course it's a lot of fun!

I had a Prochrono but it broke after a while, this was before I shot long range so I don't know how accurate the FPS were with it. I've had 2 Chrony's and a friend had one, those are the ones that gave false numbers. I've got a Oehler which has worked great. Personally I'd send the one you have in the mail back and wait till you can buy a high quality chrono. For now back the dope in. What the bullet does in actuality at distance is what matters.
Click to expand...

I think I will send that chrono back then. What does this mean ? "Also you can learn to back your dope in using DA, while also adjusting BC and velocity".
 
#34
First off select a powder that is not temp sensitive, other wise you'll be chasing your tail later on. Also double check every nut bolt and screw on your entire system to make sure they are tightened correctly, including the muzzle brake, which bit me in the ass me recently... friggen gunsmiths.

Pick a calm morning.

Before taking a shot make sure you are comfortable, have adjusted your body to natural POA and have the parallax dialed out of the scope for each distance. Begin your trigger press and follow through on the shot.

You'll be using your ballistic program to back in the dope. I use SHOOTER on my smart phone but there are plenty of programs available and some that are free. It's important to use correct inputs (double check data input) and for now turn some extra features off like auto powder temp adjustment and auto atmosphere.

Measure the distances from center of the bore and the center of the scope and input.

Research the "true BC" of the bullet you will be using and input that, I say true BC because most CO's inflate their BC's. I use the Litz G7 BC's.

Guess at the velocity, you'll likely be within 150 fps of actual, input that.

Calibrate your Kestrel and use your Kestrel to get DA at the time of shooting, input that.

Some programs have a "find velocity" feature, which makes this job easier. But otherwise you'll want to make sure your zero is perfect. Don't just shoot 3 rounds, shoot a couple groups of five. If your group is slightly high or low, like .05 mil high or low, remember that. This is being nitpicky but you'll see why I do this in a few paragraphs.

Shoot at 300Y and adjust scope till you are centered relative to your zero if it was slightly high or low, shoot at least 5 rounds. Then adjust the velocity in your program till it's the same adjustment of your scope. For instance, if it took .8 mils of elevation on your turrets to hit center, adjust the velocity in your program till the programs solution gives .8 mils.

Check the DA and change the DA in the program if need be. Now refine dope by shooting farther, like 600Y. You should be within 2-3 clicks by now. Adjust velocity in the program till it's giving the same solution as the turrets do.

Pick another distance like 1000Y. Check and change DA if need be. By now you should be within a click or two. Repeat velocity input adjustment. Remember to err on the side of slightly how high or low matching what your zero was.

If need be you can slightly adjust BC, MV and scope height to get dope lined up perfectly. I've had to adjust Litz BC's before. The size of the Meplat on a bullet will affect the BC. Some batches of bullets differ from the other.

If after all this your dope is not lining up then recheck your zero. If that's OK then you will need to do a tracking test on your scope. Some ballistic programs have a feature for click value offset. For instance maybe your clicks are 1.02 mil off or .98 mil off which will put you off a click at 1000Y.

For ELR I suggest spending the money on Field Firing Solutions ballistic program. My shooter program works fine for 1300Y and in but at a certain point gives wrong solutions past that.

Oh, you'll find that after a couple hundred rounds the barrel will wear in and your velocity picks up 20-30 fps. When it gets worn out you'll loose velocity. Those are the times a good Chrono comes in handy.
 
Last edited:
#35
steve123 said:
First off select a powder that is not temp sensitive, other wise you'll be chasing your tail later on. Also double check every nut bolt and screw on your entire system to make sure they are tightened correctly, including the muzzle brake, which bit me in the ass me recently... friggen gunsmiths.

Pick a calm morning.

Before taking a shot make sure you are comfortable, have adjusted your body to natural POA and have the parallax dialed out of the scope for each distance. Begin your trigger press and follow through on the shot.

You'll be using your ballistic program to back in the dope. I use SHOOTER on my smart phone but there are plenty of programs available and some that are free. It's important to use correct inputs (double check data input) and for now turn some extra features off like auto powder temp adjustment and auto atmosphere.

Measure the distances from center of the bore and the center of the scope and input.

Research the "true BC" of the bullet you will be using and input that, I say true BC because most CO's inflate their BC's. I use the Litz G7 BC's.

Guess at the velocity, you'll likely be within 150 fps of actual, input that.

Calibrate your Kestrel and use your Kestrel to get DA at the time of shooting, input that.

Some programs have a "find velocity" feature, which makes this job easier. But otherwise you'll want to make sure your zero is perfect. Don't just shoot 3 rounds, shoot a couple groups of five. If your group is slightly high or low, like .05 mil high or low, remember that. This is being nitpicky but you'll see why I do this in a few paragraphs.

Shoot at 300Y and adjust scope till you are centered relative to your zero if it was slightly high or low, shoot at least 5 rounds. Then adjust the velocity in your program till it's the same adjustment of your scope. For instance, if it took .8 mils of elevation on your turrets to hit center, adjust the velocity in your program till the programs solution gives .8 mils.

Check the DA and change the DA in the program if need be. Now refine dope by shooting farther, like 600Y. You should be within 2-3 clicks by now. Adjust velocity in the program till it's giving the same solution as the turrets do.

Pick another distance like 1000Y. Check and change DA if need be. By now you should be within a click or two. Repeat velocity input adjustment. Remember to err on the side of slightly how high or low matching what your zero was.

If need be you can slightly adjust BC, MV and scope height to get dope lined up perfectly. I've had to adjust Litz BC's before. The size of the Meplat on a bullet will affect the BC. Some batches of bullets differ from the other.

If after all this your dope is not lining up then recheck your zero. If that's OK then you will need to do a tracking test on your scope. Some ballistic programs have a feature for click value offset. For instance maybe your clicks are 1.02 mil off or .98 mil off which will put you off a click at 1000Y.

For ELR I suggest spending the money on Field Firing Solutions ballistic program. My shooter program works fine for 1300Y and in but at a certain point gives wrong solutions past that.

Oh, you'll find that after a couple hundred rounds the barrel will wear in and your velocity picks up 20-30 fps. When it gets worn out you'll loose velocity. Those are the times a good Chrono comes in handy.
Click to expand...

About the ballistic software, do you think the ballistic calculators are obsolete because of smart phones? Only reason I can think of that a ballistic calculator is more advantageous is that it's battery life is much larger.
 
#40
goodgorilla said:
About the ballistic software, do you think the ballistic calculators are obsolete because of smart phones? Only reason I can think of that a ballistic calculator is more advantageous is that it's battery life is much larger.
Click to expand...

Using your ballistic software on your phone makes it easy, especially when you can collect weather data/DA pretty well anywhere. I still make ballistic cards for match use and practice, I may verify my dope with the phone but some matches you can't use electronics so don't get too dependent on it, as you say they do have batteries and can be damaged by a fall or bad weather. If you use ballistic cards you print out yourself you will get a pretty good feel for how conditions can affect your drop with some practice and try to practice in a variety of weather conditions, not just sunny days! Especially if you plan on shooting longer distances 500 plus, it really amplifies weather changes.
 
#44
You, your rifle, ammo, understanding on moa / mil on scope adjustments, and some basics on reading wind, mirage, and ranging. Then understanding how what type / grain bullets and different powder charges effect the above if you start to reload..... If its 400yards or less, then a spotting scope wouldn't hurt. If you have a general idea of the bullet used fps at the muzzle, then maybe run it on a ballistics app on your ipad for the yardage you're shooting at so you have an idea for your scope dope so you're not wasting ammo to get on target before you take off for the range. Reloading reloading reloading. Thats all i use as a weekend warrior. In a real life situation you're not going to have 90% of the crap listed above.

Then hope your rifle can group at least submoa groups at 100yards, so it doest look like a shotgun blast at 600yards plus. Proper shooting technique is a must obviously, but if you have a craptastic rifle with 2moa groups at 100yards regardless of skill, then have fun past 600yards plus.
 
Last edited:
#45
Go buy a varmint type rifle, ffp scope, a bipod and start shooting and reloading now. You can make your on rear bag. Learn to reload. Learn to shoot well at 100 yards then 200 yards then…..
Get out and play more than you try to plan.

The books that were listed above are priceless. Knowledge is much more important than equipment.
 
#46
boyscout said:
Go buy a varmint type rifle, ffp scope, a bipod and start shooting and reloading now. You can make your on rear bag. Learn to reload. Learn to shoot well at 100 yards then 200 yards then…..
Get out and play more than you try to plan.

The books that were listed above are priceless. Knowledge is much more important than equipment.
Click to expand...

I have the equipment now to do this stuff. Currently I'm learning about barrel break in and cleaning my .22.
 
#47
Ok good gorilla,
I am in your shoes. You sound like a newb like me that is so excited to get to where a lot of these other guys are at. I too am new to long range. Bought DD AR 16" few months ago. Love it. Been 20 yrs since had guns (bolt gun). Even reloaded. Now got ar and just bought reloading equip, Leica 1600 rangefinder, vortex PST SFP (think I wish had bought FFP) 6-24x50. Been stretching out to 400 yds with 6-8" groups but want sub-moa. Don't feel like I know near enough about shooting but been reading forums, books and websites to learn. Even going to take course with DR Long Range Concepts in SW Missouri in March. So I too love the equip stuff. That is a lot of the fun to me also. Not sure why it is wrong to try to get all the right equip to start ALONG with training to get better. My question is why not get all equip we want to HELP us get better? I am thinking of the koestrel 4500 with applied ballistics software. I used Shooter on IPhone to dial in 400 yd shot straight back from 100 yds and was amazed. So what equip should tech junkies like us use? (Assuming we are ALSO going to learn the trade). Want to buy right stuff from the get go. Thanks to all. Especially to good gorilla for having the guts to ask questions knowing he was going to take a beating.
 
#49
bbowles said:
Ok good gorilla,
I am in your shoes. You sound like a newb like me that is so excited to get to where a lot of these other guys are at. I too am new to long range. Bought DD AR 16" few months ago. Love it. Been 20 yrs since had guns (bolt gun). Even reloaded. Now got ar and just bought reloading equip, Leica 1600 rangefinder, vortex PST SFP (think I wish had bought FFP) 6-24x50. Been stretching out to 400 yds with 6-8" groups but want sub-moa. Don't feel like I know near enough about shooting but been reading forums, books and websites to learn. Even going to take course with DR Long Range Concepts in SW Missouri in March. So I too love the equip stuff. That is a lot of the fun to me also. Not sure why it is wrong to try to get all the right equip to start ALONG with training to get better. My question is why not get all equip we want to HELP us get better? I am thinking of the koestrel 4500 with applied ballistics software. I used Shooter on IPhone to dial in 400 yd shot straight back from 100 yds and was amazed. So what equip should tech junkies like us use? (Assuming we are ALSO going to learn the trade). Want to buy right stuff from the get go. Thanks to all. Especially to good gorilla for having the guts to ask questions knowing he was going to take a beating.
Click to expand...

I've been told personally by a few trainers years ago that anyone should start out using a .22 So that's what I am doing. In the mean time there is a shitload of information I need to read, I think I'll get some more equipment after I can shoot the .22 at the 100 yard range well. I do have my Remington 700 getting some new stuff put on it that will take many months, which in the meantime I can also learn how to properly reload. I have the money for a range finder and other stuff, but if I am shooting at fixed targets like I am, I don't really need it yet. I could buy it and learn how to use it properly, but I feel that I will do that when the time is right. One device I believe that a really need is a chrono graph, so I can learn how to make proper loads in the reloading process. One gadget I have that I don't really need right now is the Kastrel 3500, I got that because it's a critical component in making firing solutions. I think the range finder should be strait forward once I get my hands on that. I am still undecided about getting a device to measure ammo temperature.
 
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