New Magnetospeed Mounting option

#51
after contacting the author of the research paper.. most of the testing was done over a completely parallel / level surface but some smaller samples and computer modeling definitely suggest that the angle of incidence of the aerodynamic body (bullet) shockwave contacting the interferncace surface (bayonet) affects the lift/drag and resultant bullet trajectory upset...

so not only does the passing over the bayonet have an effect but if the bayonet is not perpendicular like with the sporter especially since it does not have angled shims .. the deflection is worse.. which would explain why guys like me with a sporter are seeing increased angular deflection away from the bayonet
 
#52
Got mine yesterday. Havent used it yet but it should work.
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20180830_224503.jpg
 
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#53
squib-load this is the phenomenon that causes a bullet to follow the path of a suppressor if the bore of the baffle stack is misaligned as well. Similarly the disturbance from conflicting pressure waves inside a small tunnel can effect the flight of a bullet, like if you light a round off too close to a barricade or wall, within a few inches of the muzzle, it too can cause issues.
 
#54
Not enough for me to care.

Note David Tubb and his crew shoot ELR competitions with Magnetospeeds attached to the rifles and if i am correct one of the competitors still holds ELR central records for which the bar is set quite high as shooter needs to score on first 3 consecutive shots at the distance.

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#57
After buying and trying one last month I’m returning my labradar to brownells. This makes the magneto incredibly easy to setup, doesn’t shift POI, and labradar sucks if you don’t shoot on a levelish surface it will just fall right over.

I would highly recommend the wiser mount.
 
#59
Renomd said:
After buying and trying one last month I’m returning my labradar to brownells. This makes the magneto incredibly easy to setup, doesn’t shift POI, and labradar sucks if you don’t shoot on a levelish surface it will just fall right over.

I would highly recommend the wiser mount.
Click to expand...
Wow, just got my labradar in two days ago. I bought a clamp that will squeeze into the bench and has an adjustable hinge so I can position it up and forward or backward of the bench, I’m hoping it’s strong enough.

Are your concerns mainly external/physical (setting it up, keeping it aimed in the same exact spot etc) or are they also with its function?
 
#60
spife7980 said:
Wow, just got my labradar in two days ago. I bought a clamp that will squeeze into the bench and has an adjustable hinge so I can position it up and forward or backward of the bench, I’m hoping it’s strong enough.

Are your concerns mainly external/physical (setting it up, keeping it aimed in the same exact spot etc) or are they also with its function?
Click to expand...
The range i primarily use has a step off and then a downhill gravel section where I would have to put the labradar in order to properly line up with the barrel end so it’s difficult.

Sorry I prob should have said that
 
#61
squib-load said:
after contacting the author of the research paper.. most of the testing was done over a completely parallel / level surface but some smaller samples and computer modeling definitely suggest that the angle of incidence of the aerodynamic body (bullet) shockwave contacting the interferncace surface (bayonet) affects the lift/drag and resultant bullet trajectory upset...

so not only does the passing over the bayonet have an effect but if the bayonet is not perpendicular like with the sporter especially since it does not have angled shims .. the deflection is worse.. which would explain why guys like me with a sporter are seeing increased angular deflection away from the bayonet
Click to expand...

Interesting stuff you've posted. I'm familiar with aerodynamic "ground effect," so I get what you've been saying in this thread. I can imagine / see how shockwave interacting with a nearby parallel reflective surface would possibly affect stability. I'm not a pilot, but my background is in science and I'm a bit of a nerd. ;) I've long been fascinated by flight and spent many, many hours watching flight ops on the deck of the USS Independence. I was also VERY fortunate to get a back-seat ride in a jet with a "cat shot," full aerobatics demo, and arrested landing. Coolest thing I've ever done... and ever will do.

I got the MKM picatinny mount for the Magnetospeed V3. I've only run a comparison with it on vs off, and I am pretty sure I saw a change in POI and group size. But, I can't be sure it wasn't ME. I will test it again. But, yeah... I'm afraid the off-barrel mount doesn't remove the effect, and that suuuuucks.

Here's my question (and thanks for indulging): How much of a factor is the LENGTH of the reflective parallel surfaces? I would imagine the longer the flight over the surface, the more of an effect it would have. What if the sensors were embedded in a structure that only had two very short surfaces in sequence? In other words, eliminate the longer flat surface. What if the "bayonet" looked like this? Reduce the time / distance / opportunity for the shockwave to reflect back and upset the pitch of the projectile? Pardon the crude drawing. :)

MagnetoSpeed alternate design.jpg
 
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#65
Racer88 said:
Interesting stuff you've posted. I'm familiar with aerodynamic "ground effect," so I get what you've been saying in this thread. I can imagine / see how shockwave interacting with a nearby parallel reflective surface would possibly affect stability. I'm not a pilot, but my background is in science and I'm a bit of a nerd. ;) I've long been fascinated by flight and spent many, many hours watching flight ops on the deck of the USS Independence. I was also VERY fortunate to get a back-seat ride in a jet with a "cat shot," full aerobatics demo, and arrested landing. Coolest thing I've ever done... and ever will do.

I got the MKM picatinny mount for the Magnetospeed V3. I've only run a comparison with it on vs off, and I am pretty sure I saw a change in POI and group size. But, I can't be sure it wasn't ME. I will test it again. But, yeah... I'm afraid the off-barrel mount doesn't remove the effect, and that suuuuucks.

Here's my question (and thanks for indulging): How much of a factor is the LENGTH of the reflective parallel surfaces? I would imagine the longer the flight over the surface, the more of an effect it would have. What if the sensors were embedded in a structure that only had two very short surfaces in sequence? In other words, eliminate the longer flat surface. What if the "bayonet" looked like this? Reduce the time / distance / opportunity for the shockwave to reflect back and upset the pitch of the projectile? Pardon the crude drawing. :)

View attachment 6977537
Click to expand...
I think squibload is overthinking this WAY too much.

He is correct, super sonic projectiles traveling over a parallel plane will effect stability of the bullet as the shockwave will be reflected back into the projectile. That is what his figures show. But that plane would have to be stupid long and fall along with the bullets effect due to gravity as it falls, to have any real measurable effect. Even a slower rifle bullet going 2400 ft/sec, is only over the magneto speed for about 0.000278 seconds. The magnetospeed is only about what 8" long? 2400 fps x 12 in/ft=28800 inps, 8 in/28800 inps = 0.00027777 sec.

He is right that there is a pressure change behind the bullet as a result of the magnetospeed, but that pressure change has a completely irrelevant effect on the bullet for the 0.000278 seconds that pressure change exists. Applying just about any reasonable force for 0.000278 seconds will result in irrelevant position changes. The bullets inertia will not be meaningfully effected by the pressure change.

Shooting in the rain would in theory cause a similar effect as the shockwaves impact rain droplets, but bullets just don’t fly completely haywire due to liquid water droplets in the air. On the grand scheme of things, it’s an irrelevant force and as a relsult an irrelevant effect.
 
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#66
tomcatfan said:
I think squibload is overthinking this WAY too much.

He is correct, super sonic projectiles traveling over a parallel plane will effect stability of the bullet as the shockwave will be reflected back into the projectile. That is what his figures show. But that plane would have to be stupid long and fall along with the bullets effect due to gravity as it falls, to have any real measurable effect. Even a slower rifle bullet going 2400 ft/sec, is only over the magneto speed for about 0.000278 seconds. The magnetospeed is only about what 8" long? 2400 fps x 12 in/ft=28800 inps, 8 in/28800 inps = 0.00027777 sec.

He is right that there is a pressure change behind the bullet as a result of the magnetospeed, but that pressure change has a completely irrelevant effect on the bullet for the 0.000278 seconds that pressure change exists. Applying just about any reasonable force for 0.000278 seconds will result in irrelevant position changes. The bullets inertia will not be meaningfully effected by the pressure change.

Shooting in the rain would in theory cause a similar effect as the shockwaves impact rain droplets, but bullets just don’t fly completely haywire due to liquid water droplets in the air. On the grand scheme of things, it’s an irrelevant force and as a relsult an irrelevant effect.
Click to expand...

That was the basis of my question, really. Can the VERY short exposure to the interfering / reflected shockwave really have an effect on the bullet's stability? Kinda like passing your finger through the flame of a candle quickly vs slowly. Time makes the difference.
 
#69
Maelstrom said:
Will the mount work on a rifle that only has a sling stud? I don't have either a pic rail or arca rail on my rifle.
Click to expand...
Yes, but you would need a Swivel stud adapter.

Here are a few on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/Caldwell-Pic...3&keywords=swivel+stud+picatinny+rail+adapter
https://www.amazon.com/Blackhawk-Sw...4&keywords=swivel+stud+picatinny+rail+adapter
https://www.amazon.com/Lion-Gears-P...6&keywords=swivel+stud+picatinny+rail+adapter

I've used the Lion Gear before, and found I needed to bend the aluminum feet that rest against the stock to fit my rifles better, but once I did that it was sturdy enough to get readings from my MagnetoSpeed. I have no personal experience with the other two.
 
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#71
@WiserPrecision Long story short, I had a V3 and returned it and purchased a LabRadar. I think I'm going to get a Magnetospeed again for various reasons and looking at the Sporter due to the price. Will your mount allow the Sporter to be used with suppressors?
 
#73
Maelstrom said:
Would these work with a Manners T-4A if mounted on a Badger embedded front rail? I only have a swivel sling stud on the bottom of the stock for my bipod.
Click to expand...
I don't see why it wouldn't. The bayonet may be off to the side after you get it adjusted, but that has no effect on the chrono.
 
#74
021411 said:
@WiserPrecision Long story short, I had a V3 and returned it and purchased a LabRadar. I think I'm going to get a Magnetospeed again for various reasons and looking at the Sporter due to the price. Will your mount allow the Sporter to be used with suppressors?
Click to expand...
I don't know what the difference between the Sporter and the V3 is, but mine works well with the suppressor and 24" bbl in a Greyboe Ridgeback. Shouldn't be any issues with your Manners.
 
#75
021411 said:
@WiserPrecision Long story short, I had a V3 and returned it and purchased a LabRadar. I think I'm going to get a Magnetospeed again for various reasons and looking at the Sporter due to the price. Will your mount allow the Sporter to be used with suppressors?
Click to expand...
Previously, I would have said refer to MagnetoSpeed's fitment guide (essentially No it won't work), But I have actually had a couple customers run their entire Sporter bayonet assembly in front of their cans and had good success with this setup. I believe if you still look at the FAQs page of the site, it still advises against this, but, given user success, This would be the method I would recommend.

Hope that helps!
Shane
 
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#77
Looking for a Magnetospeed mount for the Desert Tech SRS and a HTI chassis’s. The WiserPrecision mount is the one I am most interested in. Would this mount work on these rifles? Would it work with all of Desert Tech barrel lengths?
 
#78
I been using this mount for few months now and I'm very happy with it. Before this I had made my own that worked ok but this is much better. since you can adjust any way you want. Also, I had over-tightened the slider assembly knob and cracked it and contacted Wiser Precision to inquire about purchasing another one and Shane sent out the updated version of the slide and bracket no charge! Awesome company to deal with!
 

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#79
I know this is an old thread bu I was wondering how this product has held up for guys that have had it for a while? Seems like something I'm going to pick up soonish but was just curious about the long term durability of the pieces since tbey appear to be 3d printed (which I really know nothing about filament strengths).

Thanks bros
 
#80
I know this is an old thread but I was wondering how this product has held up for guys that have had it for a while? Seems like something I'm going to pick up soonish but was just curious about the long term durability of the pieces since tbey appear to be 3d printed (which I really know nothing about filament strengths).

Thanks bros
 
#81
squib-load said:
barrel harmonics are only a small part of the induced error of the bayonet attachment.

the aerodynamic friction and interference between hypersonic object (bullet) and raised ground plane (bayonet) pitches the bullet and will effect its POI. distance above the fixed surface, caliber, velocity, and the pitching angle of the projectiles path relative to the ground plane are all variables that effect the striking point of the projectile..

basic aerodynamics...

View attachment 6910947
from the research paper..


The projectile was discovered to experience a marked pitching moment, initially nose-downwards at the high end of type C reflection interactions, then more strongly nose-up with contin- ued decreasing ground clearance, as the pressure distribution over the rear of the projectile was increasingly distorted by the build up of high pressure behind the series of shock/ground interactions.

there is your definitive answer.... no more speculation required...
Click to expand...
Tell that to David Tubb who is breaking records with coffee every morning with a magnetto speed attached in a similar fashion with the majority of his long range shooting
 
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#82
10ring1 said:
Tell that to David Tubb who is breaking records with coffee every morning with a magnetto speed attached in a similar fashion with the majority of his long range shooting
Click to expand...
I’ve done the math before, but to summarize again: a bullet going 2700 ft/sec is going to take 0.00037 seconds to go one foot. My magnetospeed bayonet is 7 inches long or 0.583 feet. It takes the bullet 0.000216 seconds to traverse the bayonet. Does the force squib-load describes exist, yes it does. How much change is that force going to make in 0.000216 seconds? I doubt you would even be able to measure it. Barrel harmonics would play a much bigger role.

If the forces from asymmetric interactions with the bullet were a thing, my Omega would destroy accuracy due to the baffle stack design. Most suppressors don’t have just a straight hole that the bullet passes through. But I’ve not noticed any degradation of accuracy using my magnetospeed or suppressor. Are ther POI shifts, sure but not accuracy.
 
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#83
I've used this mounting option. Works great. Takes some time to set up, but then it's really easy each time you go to use it. Even when switching between rifles. The only drawback is it takes some care to protect the whole thing during transport.
 
#85
Old thread, I know, but - I bought the wiser, a lot because of this thread and others, and, it won't work for me without changing out a bunch of rails on all my junk. I CANNOT mount the wiser behind my Harris bipods, it won't fit past them. Most of my rifles have short pic or arca rails at the front and at receiver end of hand guard, so, I get the wiser mount, with a bipod way back, or no wiser mount. Also, I had to buy the arca adapter, I know everyone else does this, except RRS...why can't it be built like that? And that strap hooha, even I can see there are at least three easier and faster ways to mount the magneto speed bayonet to the adapter. If I could have the MK machine mounts with a wiser carbon fiber rod, and a RRS arca/pic clamp, it'd be perfect. as it is, I'm spending hudreds more on rails to make it work, because I really want it to work.

Edit; tried again to turn it sideways, mount it to the side rail, do ANYTHING to make it work and not interfere with a bipod...no luck. Pretty likely this is going back to Wiser.
 
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#86
squib-load said:
@TacticalDillhole

also.. if you even have one.. try mounting it a 6 o'clock.. groups move up.. on every rifle and caliber I have and the bigger faster the bullet the more the deflection.. especially if there is any angle on the bayonet.. now move it to 12 o'clock .. the groups go down... move the bayonet to 3 o'clock.. bullets strike left.. always away from the bayonet surface.. harmonics play a part.. but the largest shift is from aerodynamic interaction with the friction surface...
Click to expand...

Here's a pic of the experiment I did with my MagnetoSpeed on my .308 as I rotated the MagnetoSpeed clockwise 360° at 90° increments starting at the normal mounting configuration at the 6 o'clock position:

MagnetoSpeed Rotation Test.JPG
 
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#93
Pink_Mist said:
I am extracting one message. Interference with the projectile shockwave eccentrically will provide an impact shift.
Click to expand...

Yes. . . as demonstrated in my little experiment shown on post #89.

I find that though I get a POI shift, my accuracy and precision remains good enough for load development. Here's 3 5-shot groups with my MagnetoSpeed v3 attached to my .308:

MagnetoSpeed 2021-6-6.jpg
 
#94
straightshooter1 said:
Yes. . . as demonstrated in my little experiment shown on post #89.

I find that though I get a POI shift, my accuracy and precision remains good enough for load development. Here's 3 5-shot groups with my MagnetoSpeed v3 attached to my .308:

View attachment 7658407
Click to expand...
Well I think there is enough information there to put this argument to rest. If the MS is attached and you want to shoot at distance then keep it at 6'oclock and expect POI shift. Good work!
 
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