New production class rifle

I can't really tell if this is a good or bad thing. The PRS people might not like it because it's gaming the system but it is yet another option for consumers at that price point which is nice to have.
 
After researching a little, company has the same address and fax number as Defiance. Not sure why they are being cryptic as to it likely being owned by the same people/parent company.

They state they make the actions for them, though it seems like it’s actually a rifle production branch of Defiance.
 
If it can help with getting more people to compete in those classes it can’t be a bad thing.

The issue is with more high quality options that push the limits of production class, people may feel they need to spend the full 4k to be competitive. Which for a lot of people is a deal breaker.

It may make people who are running $1200 total rigs feel like they are wasting their time.

I’m not saying it will make them better or worse off with either option, but it’s what the shooter perceives that matters.

If more new shooters perceive the higher end options to be good, then it’s a great things.

If it basically takes shooters out of open class down to production because they can run what is basically a custom build, and it pushes newer shooters out because they don’t feel they can compete, it’s a bad thing.
 
How does this new introduction to that niche suddenly change any of the dynamics that already existed a month ago in a negative manner?

At least one offering already offered targets Production Class based with a barely sub $2K price and component specs aimed at competition.

I disagree with the premise that any of this will cause human behavior and buying habits to suddenly convulse into a shrinkage that will collapse the US economy much less the PRS and other precision rifle based sports.

Certain people are always going to be less committed than others to any pursuit. Those people are always keeping their eyes out for a convenient excuse to bail when their goal becomes dependent on practice and dedication that can't be ordered on-line. I would think more offerings aimed at the Production Division would take less excuses off the table rather than cause more to leave the sport or other divisions.

Preemptively deciding on the virtues of a new competitive offering based on certain human behavioral traits (traits which many think are not good ones to have) is not fair to the offering. This is a capitalistic system where a new widget or rifle will live or die based on demand and the makers ability to deliver value to the buyer.

PRS as an entity should be happy to have more participants regardless of what class they shoot in. Everything else will adjust and thrive just like it has done for quite some time.

./
 
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There were a lot of “ifs” in my post. I didn’t say which on it would or wouldn’t end up being. Just offered up two options that could be possible outcomes.

Also, the only other competition just under 2k I have seen is the John Hancock rifle and it’s hasn’t even hit the scene yet, so you can’t use that as an example of how this will or won’t affect the class. Things weren’t the same a month ago because they haven’t hit market.

Also what changes is when there are many offerings in a “niche” market which basically negates it being “niche” as now it’s mainstream.

Do you think this will only be a manufacturer or two who does this if it’s successful? Of course not.

Base class was/is intended to make shooting with a budget rifle competitive (even says so in the first sentence or two).

So, if the trend becomes needing a 4k setup to be competitive, you have a very big chance of turning off budget shooters and casual shooters.

It’s starting to happen a bit in .22lr already. Guys with sub 1500k setups are slowly starting to either come to less matches or stop showing up all together. When asked why, many say it’s because they don’t want to spend the amount of money they feel is needed to keep up.

Nothing will change in the open divisions, but this trend of custom rifle manufacturers making a “production” rifle *may* make production class trivial.

This is the reason every target isn’t 1 moa. You have to keep the average or below average participants interested. The quickest way to get rid of those participants (in any activity, not just shooting) is to either make it too hard or price them out of it.
 
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https://www.precisionrifleseries.com/profiles/standings/P/?year=2018

12 production shooters. all year?
i don't even see this as being a PRS thing. its a way to get a chunk of the market. the $2k price point fits with PRS

between this the JHR and the MPA PCR or whatever it is, we'll see what happens with production next year. do these new platforms make it a bigger deal? or does it fizzle and die after next season?
 
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I couldn’t give to two hoots less about what this does for PRS.... but I am enamoured with another really nice, almost custom rifle for $2K. When I started shooting nice rifles just a few short years ago, it was an investment that got North of $3K pretty quick. I think this is a really great price point for a whole lot of people, it’s one step above “buy a CTR and drop it in a chassis” and getting pretty damn close to full custom performance without the insane price tags. Of course, this is all assuming the barrels are nice.
 
I couldn’t give to two hoots less about what this does for PRS.... but I am enamoured with another really nice, almost custom rifle for $2K. When I started shooting nice rifles just a few short years ago, it was an investment that got North of $3K pretty quick. I think this is a really great price point for a whole lot of people, it’s one step above “buy a CTR and drop it in a chassis” and getting pretty damn close to full custom performance without the insane price tags. Of course, this is all assuming the barrels are nice.

I can’t find any info on the barrels. All they say is they source them from different manufacturers.

Being that it’s a Defiance product, I’m sure they won’t be bad. They might not be bartlein or Krieger, but I’d imagine they will shoot well.

And I totally agree. I have a friend who was looking to get started with a bolt rifle. We were looking at the Ruger RPR and Remington PCR. I saw this and told him to just save a bit more and go this direction. Very hard to beat for the price.
 
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It's great to see more sub $2k options and it will do a lot to get more people involved with precision rifles.

It wasn't that long when you're options were a full custom for $3,500+ or taking your chances with a factory rifle and replacing most of the parts.
 
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The issue is with more high quality options that push the limits of production class, people may feel they need to spend the full 4k to be competitive. Which for a lot of people is a deal breaker.

It may make people who are running $1200 total rigs feel like they are wasting their time.

I’m not saying it will make them better or worse off with either option, but it’s what the shooter perceives that matters.

If more new shooters perceive the higher end options to be good, then it’s a great things.

If it basically takes shooters out of open class down to production because they can run what is basically a custom build, and it pushes newer shooters out because they don’t feel they can compete, it’s a bad thing.

Welcome to the free market.
 
It's just like any other game or sport, people with talent can have very little invested and still beat someone with an unlimited budget. At the end of the day it comes down to putting in the time to practice if you want to win. I've seen plenty of people with an 870 or 1100 beat someone with a $10k Perazzi at trap. The gun doesn't mean much as long as its reliable.

I think it is great that there are more low cost options for shooters even if they aren't getting into prs. Better quality shit at a lower price point...what's not to like? Look what people were paying for RPR's just so they could avoid the wait and have one right away. These rifles aren't a lot more and are far better in my opinion.
 
Very nice looking rifle, I'm pretty much right at that price point with the path I chose and don't feel hindered in any way so far when compared to more expensive builds.
Kelbly Atlas Tactical, Bartlien 5R M24 profile chambered by Kelblys and a Grayboe Renegade with MPA M5 bottom metal.

I got everything the way I wanted it for very little extra money over an RPR.
 
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Appears to be a tenacity action (well, probably rebranded variant). At least this might help drive to getting more than just RH .473 short action in the tenacity.

Hum, pulling up badrock website and looking at the specs, it states "Coned-nose, controlled round feed and sliding plate extractor" compared to the tenacity's current configuration of flat bolt face, push feed, mini 16 extractor. Also comes with 223 bolt face and "Choose short or long, right or left". Would be cool to see these options come over to the tenacity for DIY'ers.
 
Appears to be a tenacity action (well, probably rebranded variant). At least this might help drive to getting more than just RH .473 short action in the tenacity.

Hum, pulling up badrock website and looking at the specs, it states "Coned-nose, controlled round feed and sliding plate extractor" compared to the tenacity's current configuration of flat bolt face, push feed, mini 16 extractor. Also comes with 223 bolt face and "Choose short or long, right or left". Would be cool to see these options come over to the tenacity for DIY'ers.

I’m sure that’s part of the hook. Get a tenacity with controlled round feed......but only if you buy our rifle.
 
I got everything the way I wanted it for very little extra money over an RPR.

Your rifle sounds excellent and definitely a step above an RPR. What price are you using for the RPR though?

Every time I search on them, I get multiple sites showing under $800. I recall once seeing a sale under $700. First hit on a quick search:

https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/mobile/product/27180/redirect

If you're able to build your custom for not much more, that is amazing.

As for the new Defiance, I really like it. I've coached a few people into precision shooting now and none of them were concerned about what the competition was shooting, it was more confidence in their own abilities.
 
Your rifle sounds excellent and definitely a step above an RPR. What price are you using for the RPR though?

Every time I search on them, I get multiple sites showing under $800. I recall once seeing a sale under $700. First hit on a quick search:

https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/mobile/product/27180/redirect

If you're able to build your custom for not much more, that is amazing.

As for the new Defiance, I really like it. I've coached a few people into precision shooting now and none of them were concerned about what the competition was shouoting, it was more confidence in their own abilities.


Certainly not using the prices you quoted, I started on this early last year and had been reading and researching before that. I tend to over research things quite a bit and have the patience of a snake, I handled several RPR rifles during that time and although I really like the platform every time I handled one I found something I didn't particularly care for.
Which really translates to I wanted full control of the final finished product, control freak I guess. ?

I will most likely end up getting an RPR later on now that the coo coo for RPR puffs craze has slowed a bit but will most likely pick one up that somebody has allready put an aftermarket barrel on it and made a few of the minor tweaks that I didn't like. I think they are a fine and capable rifle but just wanted to go a different path in the end.

I was really sold on the Atlas for many reasons but that is for a different thread.
 
so asked a couple questions on facebook and got the response that their website was premature with the information station "choose short or long, right or left" or whatever it was. Only short action at this time
 
The only one i don't have the short action version of is the atlas tactical. But am picking up a black bear and 2 nucleus short actions from my ffl tomorrow. I really like both the origin and tenacity. If defiance does bring the control round feed and mechanical ejector over it will be hard to pass up. Although if I decide to go with a chassis build I might just grab a badrock, the cost doesn't seem to be much above the individual component prices. Tenacity with the upcharge for control round feed (if ever offered), based on the 150 they do with their other actions, would be around 1k. plus stock, triggertech primary trigger, barrel, etc... I prefer traditional stocks over chassis'es though. But definitely will consider the badrock. Just wonder what "premium" barrel blanks they are going to use. Sounds like they don't have a large supply yet.

Fun fact: I live in the town where the north fork, middle fork, and south fork tributaries of the kentucky river meet to form the river, so south fork would have a cool meaning to me.
 
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I wouldn't look at going into a production match with a $1000.00-$1200.00 rig that you know inside and out as a disadvantage...if you perform well and you beat those $2000.00-$4000.00 rigs...it just makes the win and bragging rights that much sweeter. Been there, done that. You have to watch though because there are some that don't like getting beat that way.
 
I think PRS is expensive enough that a $2,000 rifle won't scare many people away and if they are sub 1/2 MOA rifles, it will be a relatively affordable easy button to pick one of the new class of rifles aimed at PRS limited.

In terms of this one, it seems like they probably had to use a less expensive barrel than the PVA Rock Creek to get that chassis inside the budget.

I hope they are close enough that people can choose on the ergonomics.
 
The issue is with more high quality options that push the limits of production class, people may feel they need to spend the full 4k to be competitive. Which for a lot of people is a deal breaker.

It may make people who are running $1200 total rigs feel like they are wasting their time.
Racing gets around this (somewhat) with spec series. For example, https://www.nasaproracing.com/proracing/sm.html

Other racing series exist for "production" vehicles, but some of the manufacturers get around that by building the minimum number of vehicles to qualify as a production vehicle, and it's a highly specialized variant.

Glock has their GSSF to level the playing field.

IOW, if you don't want an equipment race, explicitly state make and model of acceptable equipment.

Remington 700 or Ruger American, both in a Magpul stock, with a Vortex Viper PST chambered in 6.25 Fancypants. Factory actions and barrels only.

But be prepared for the Tikka, Savage, Leupold, et al. fanbois to complain.

ETA - I know Production already works "kinda" that way. The MSRP thing is nonsense because MSRPs are nonsense.
 
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I can't really tell if this is a good or bad thing. The PRS people might not like it because it's gaming the system but it is yet another option for consumers at that price point which is nice to have.

That's the whole purpose of PRS - to game ?

The production class is pretty much dead, I won't be surprised if that category gets dissolved in the near future.

On the plus side, another great budget option has been opened up to new shooters.
 
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MSRP is fine because the manufacturers are not going to mark them up and they aren't going to mark them down because the margins are small.

The only thing that might get weird is a $2,495 MSRP rifle with an $1,800 street price but that manufacturer is clearly not going for the PRS limited market.
 
MSRP is fine because the manufacturers are not going to mark them up and they aren't going to mark them down because the margins are small.

The only thing that might get weird is a $2,495 MSRP rifle with an $1,800 street price but that manufacturer is clearly not going for the PRS limited market.
Why couldn't a manufacturer/retailer (like Defiance/BadRock seems to be), put an MSRP of $1999 on a rifle and sell it for the same amount. Sell it wholesale for $1,500 and put a MAP of $1899 on it so Eurooptic, Cabelas, and Buds can sell it too. Then you'll have a gun that sells for 2x-3x the price of a factory R700 competing in the same division.

It's not just a PRS issue:
https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/180206-gaming-your-glock-uspsa-production-legal-mods-list/
 
I'm not seeing a problem unless you want to be competitive with a $700 rifle.

In that case you probably want a lower price class and then I have to wonder if you've got money for entry fees, ammo or travel?

I don't think anyone is priced out by a $2,000 rifle who wasn't already priced out by travel, ammo and entry fees.

I would love it if PRS was a sport you could start in with $20 in your pocket but it's expensive and I have no problem with a $2,000 rifle because by the look of it you're getting a lot for the money with a custom action, match barrel, nice trigger and a decent stock/chassis.

It's a lot better than buying a Remington, spending a lot of money getting it trued, rebarrelled and bedded in an expensive stock and then having to compete against people who just open their checkbook and buy a $5-6,000 rifle off the shelf with an accuracy guarantee, have a training ammo budget that is more than your mortgage and aren't bothered by a job to distract them from shooting.
 
I don't think anyone is priced out by a $2,000 rifle who wasn't already priced out by travel, ammo and entry fees.

Agreed. $150 for a hotel, $75 for meals, $300-$500 for match fees, $200-$400 for transportation. Show up and shoot ammo that might run $1-$3 per shot. Shoot a half dozen large matches a year, practice every week, and the gun and scope become the cheap part.

Do you need a "production division" to control costs? Isn't that what club-level matches are for?

To be clear, I think what Defiance is doing is great. More off-the-rack guns like this makes things better for everyone.
 
Do you need a "production division" to control costs? Isn't that what club-level matches are for?

Thats what I dont get, whats the basis of these complaints that it will drive people out of open class?

People that wont spend the 2k on a rifle sure as shit arent going to spend 275 bucks (like the revielle peak ranch this past weekend cost, looked dope though) to show up and pull the trigger 100 times. I know I wont and I have a fair shake more invested in my rifle that the 2k limit and no hotel costs either since Im relatively local.

I see this more as encouraging the people who are already spending 4k on a rifle to get an additional 2k rifle and pulling them down from open class to drive the competition. And since pretty much no one is currently shooting in production who is there to even drive out in the first place?

To be clear, I think what Defiance is doing is great. More off-the-rack guns like this makes things better for everyone.

Agreed. In the end I just see this as the competition in the market place driving prices lower and not necessarily gaming the 2k limit. And thats good for everyone that is not a builder of rifles costing more.
 
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Do you need a "production division" to control costs? Isn't that what club-level matches are for?

I’ll preface again that I think this is a great product.

For conversation sake, most club matches (that I see) typically use PRS rules. So, this is where I see production class being a good thing and remaining “ungamed.”

My logic is:

Everyone has more fun when they feel like they are winning. Most guys don’t drop 4k or so initially. They either bring a hunting rifle they already own, or they go spend around 1500 for a full setup. They go to a match, shoot however good or bad they shoot, and get to see they at least placed 3rd (or whatever) in production.

You typically don’t see better shooters in production, because the limitations typically kept it to RPR being about the best rifle that was allowed.

Typically, better shooters end up moving into better gear.

But, a lot of those eventually better shooters got “hooked” by feeling like they can compete because they saw they didn’t do too bad against people who had similar gear/budget. This shooter/s decided invest in a better rig and practice. Gets good enough he starts going to the actual PRS shoots, etc, etc.

Now, take that same guy and now with basically custom “production” guns, and he shows up only to find 10 guys who are seasoned shooters shooting production class.

The real situation is he got 11th place production because they are better shooters. However, we as humans tend to look for reasons that don’t involve us being at fault.


Before anyone jumps in with a “everyone gets a trophy in this generation,” that’s not what I’m saying at all. Golf has had handicaps forever and the reason is to keep lesser skill levels playing.

I’d be all for having skill level classes (a match series down here has it, and it seems to work well), over gear classes.
 
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Thats what I dont get, whats the basis of these complaints that it will drive people out of open class?

People that wont spend the 2k on a rifle sure as shit arent going to spend 275 bucks (like the revielle peak ranch this past weekend cost, looked dope though) to show up and pull the trigger 100 times. I know I wont and I have a fair shake more invested in my rifle that the 2k limit and no hotel costs either since Im relatively local.

I see this more as encouraging the people who are already spending 4k on a rifle to get an additional 2k rifle and pulling them down from open class to drive the competition. And since pretty much no one is currently shooting in production who is there to even drive out in the first place?



Agreed. In the end I just see this as the competition in the market place driving prices lower and not necessarily gaming the 2k limit. And thats good for everyone that is not a builder of rifles costing more.

Because you’re not thinking big picture.

Most people who shoot production class are either shooting at club matches or they save up to shoot one actual PRS match a year. It’s not for people who are springing to shoot multiple matches and/or travel.
 
You're not looking at the right picture.

Winning matches is for people who train, travel and enter.

If you manage to win with a $700 rifle, good for you, but you're stealing it from someone who is spending a lot more than you.

If you lose, don't whine about a $2,000 rifle because in the grand scheme of rifle competition, that's peanuts.