New Range Ideas

[LW Moore]

Fellow Shooters is there enough range course interest within the tactical community to support a new range in the State of West Virginia that could open by midsummer of this year. The reason I ask is simple I own the land in which to build it on, it naturally offers open cattle grazed pastures with ranges up to a mile and slightly beyond and a thousand combinations of shorter ranges, offering both steep hillsides and fairly flat pastures, across valleys and step up hill and down.. Before I jump both feet into this project I’m looking for a little free advice, Rather than just built it to what I think it might look like I’d rather you folks that do this tell me what you would like to see and your feelings on shooter support for something like this is a rural area. I’m about thirty minutes from the interstate highway on paved secondary roads. Having zero experience with this type sit up, I can only compare it to golf somewhat by thinking there has to be a par value at each target location, in which shooters would be driven around the course much like sporting clays or once again golf with a cart and driver. Shooting stations would be well marked and flagged, targets would be of unknown distances and the terrain itself will dictate most of the useful positions for attempting each shot… Your thoughts and ideas are most welcome as this is just a first step in my planning stage. LW

 

[DP425]

That is a nice idea- I don't know that I've ever heard of something like this.

 

[dragbag]

Do you want/need to make money with this?

Can you get zoning approval and what about neighbors?

Insurance?

Do you have enough local shooters to support such a range?

 

[LW Moore]

Ill try and answer a few of your questions, I'm in the full time farming business,I already do lease hunting and have insurance but will for sure give it a deep look before this opens to the public.There is no zoning out this far in the countryside , and i own enough land that the neighbors are not close enough to become a concern. And yes like any business it will be run for profit.As to local shooters, Id think very few in number if any. Motels , yes two national chain and several private less then an hours drive away, plus plenty of eating establishments.. This is way different from my normal type of shooting, even being a certified instructor and RSO, this is a total new thing for me to consider , however I feel that my farm land could offer a great course for this type of venue..

 

[dragbag]

If you don't have a local shooter base I think it would be hard to keep afloat. Now if you could secure sponsorships for a few big matches a year you might be able to make it work. I was working with a guy to do something along those same lines here in CT. The thing I had going for me was the shooters. But in the end it never got off the ground because I couldn't show him enough cash flow from the range for him to want to take it on.

 

[Weber]

With him owning the land already, he could make this work pretty easily.

The big things: zoning, licensing, insurance, and clients.

Other things: equipment, target systems, range safety, employees, and marketing.

Private club maybe your best option.

 

[dragbag]

Private clubs means high fee's to make it worth the effort. It works in certain areas really well, those areas tend to be wealthy areas. I think he would get more business if open to the public. Another thing is to me it sounds like he is in a pretty rural area. Which tells me the locals have plenty of places to shoot for free if they want to. So his target market is traveling to shoot there.

 

[diverdon]

So his target market is traveling to shoot there.

It might help if he could include nice parking including areas to park a camper.

 

[dragbag]

Yes trailer parking with hook-up's (at least water and electric) is a huge plus.

 

[Roddd]

I think holding some large tactical matches there could make some money, but I don't see much cash flow coming from simply opening it to the public. I don't know if the OP wants to use this as a business venture but if he's looking to make some new friends out of this, I'm sure they'd bring their own steel to set up, reload some ammo for him, stuff like that.

 

[LW Moore]

I'm listening and learning.. Some of what you have asked is already done...

 

[dms416]

Is the EPA a consideration (i.e. lead)? Does it make any difference if this is his land or if said range is public or private?

 

[Richard Cranium]

Similar idea here in Utah. I have shot it many times, it's a lot of fun.
Spirit Ridge Rifle Golf

 

[dragbag]

I don't see much cash flow coming from simply opening it to the public.

Where you are you might be right. But here in the Northeast there are not a lot of legal long distant ranges. There is no open desert to just drive out to, to shoot. Most guys I know around here are willing to travel for the chance to shoot some good long range ranges. Depending where in WV this property is could be an easy weekend excursion for guys in the Northeast. Also there are high shooter numbers in the states (OH, VA, & PA) around his property.

 

[dragbag]

Does it make any difference if this is his land or if said range is public or private?

Not sure what you are asking here. It is his land either way public or private.

 

[dms416]

Not sure what you are asking here. It is his land either way public or private.

I will rephrase.

I am to understand that lead content/contamination in the berm at outdoor ranges is a consideration and at some point requires "management". I'm sure the EPA has certain standards regarding this.

Are there different standards for say:
- Some guy building a private shooting range (on his property) for his own amusement (no profit)
- Some guy building a private shooting range (on his property) for private membership/profit
- Some guy building a public shooting range (on his property) for profit

I have heard about ranges having people come in an "mine" for the metal (lead, copper) in their berms, and I wasn't sure if this is something that had to be done periodically. I guess I just assume that it is since it sounds like some PITA thing the EPA would require.

 

[dragbag]

Trap, skeet, and sporting clays ranges get mined a lot. It ends up being a small profit for them. As to a PITA I guess that would depend on a lot of different factors.

 

[JC Steel]

I think you can build it, Set everything up and have a private club.
If you have it nice, with lots of targets, barricades, etc etc, you can attract shooters from hundreds of miles away.

Charge a fee like $200 a year.

If you have 100 members, that's 20K.

Then have a big match there, having another 100 shooters, and again, $200 a shooter for two days of shooting. Make it worth there while. Food, shirts, etc etc. You will take away 10k from this.

The 30K a year will help build new props, buy more steel, etc etc.

 

[Squid284]

Best of luck. More places to shoot public or private is a good thing for the sport but I don't think profits would come easy.

 

[mark5pt56]

I think the matches would do more to promote it. I'm sure some that have run matches would help you, at least with advice.

 

[Bubb]

FYI, I'd drive from Pa down there to be able to shoot a mile. If I where u I'd try and get a sniper match there. Open a face book page, web site get the word out!! Would love to shoot that. Plus I'd pay for a place to shoot deer long range 5-700 yards!!! Please PM me.....

 

[LW Moore]

I Thank so Many of you for posting and lending your advice, Yes we are getting started one of my pardners found enough one inch steel plate yesterday to make forty targets. There is plenty to do yet however we will plan a match this summer. WE have have lots of hills and hollows here and some of the most open land in the area, plus a road that circles through the property that will take shooters in at one point and exit at another bring them right back to the parking area. Farm trailers and hay wagons will be rigged to transport shooters and gear around the course.. We are indeed a little off the grid location wise but I see little way of offering this type of course with this many long and very complicated ranges being anywhere close homes or town.. Like i posted earlier were only 30 minutes from the interstate highway on county route paved roads and 45 minutes from brand name motels and eating establishments... My passion has always been the shooting sports, I love it as much as You folks do.. This is just a new phase for me with a learning curve.Thanks Again.. LW

 

[SPEAK338]

This is exciting to see someone who owns the land and wants to open a range, my hats off to you. If I were closer I would participate.

 

[lash]

While I am too far away to make use of this type of range regularly, I could see a visit where I met my brother form MI here for a fun weekend shoot. It seems to me that if you put together the right business model and make the shooting community aware of what you have to offer, and then make sure you deliver what they are expecting, that this idea would fly. Now is a good time to consider such an idea, as interest in long range shooting sure seems to be growing in popularity.

Also, as mentioned, make sure you do your research regarding the EPA requirements. I'm pretty sure that they will have requirements for the mediation of lead quantities and volume. That needs to be considered up front and treated as another part of the business model.

I wish you the best of luck with this venture.

 

[DoctorBen]

Try chatting with Tom Sarver of Thunder Valley precision.
I do like your idea of rifle golf, and I'd be happy to travel down from New York for a few rounds at somewhere between $50-100 per round, per shooter.

 

[mark5pt56]

Concerning lead mining, since most of this is precision based, keeping most of the bullets fired in the berms should help with clean up. Academi has a rubber lining on top, then shredded rubber on that, it's almost like laying down a tarp catching the brass. The shredded rubber keeps the bullets from going through the liner. Of course with steel, most debri will be all around the steel. This would be more helpful with pistol/carbine on paper.

 

[thrusty]

Where exactly in West Virginia were you thinking?

 

[tmpohuski7]

Insurance would be a huge concern of mine. It only takes one accident and you could lose it all if your not covered. Be careful not everybody out there is as upstanding as most of the shooting community.

 

[LW Moore]

I'm located very close the geographical middle in the central region of the State of West Virginia, about an equal distance id suppose from the state lines of PA, OH, VA, MD and KY

 

[branson1369]

Pm sent

 

[thrusty]

I can agree with what Tom said about the insurance...opening to the public is nothing short of an adventure. Which is why safety is always priority one --- for example, at Peacemaker all ranges are supervised by credentialed RSOs who are also supervised by a CRSO. Sometimes it's easier said than done.

No small task at all...actually, some days on a gun range it feels like WORK. lol

 

[stinkyDrunk]

Detroit area here. Intrrested in a longer, 2 day type comp for a drive that far.

You mentioned "plate steel." In case you're not aware, steel targets ideally need to be ar500 type armor. Lesser steel will get chewed up, especially at < 300 yards and/or if you allow the big magnums on the range.

Good luck, I will stay tuned...

 

[caelumatra]

Here is the EPA's BMP for lead and firing ranges.
http://www2.epa.gov/sites/production/files/documents/epa_bmp.pdf

I'll highlight this

Many of the legal and government actions that have been brought against ranges are based on elevated levels of lead and increased mortality in waterfowl. For example, in one case, an upland area of a range became a temporary pond after a thunderstorm. Waterfowl used the pond to feed and shortly thereafter, there was a
waterfowl die-off (increase in bird mortality), apparently from lead ingestion

For ranges located away from coastal areas or whose operating areas are situated wholly over land, compliance with the CWA can be achieved by obtaining a NPDES permit for piped or channeled runoff from the range into water.

The term “land” in this instance refers specifically to terrain recognized as “non-wetland” areas

From briefly reading through that pdf, it would seem you just don't want to affect the water. So if you're near a stream or creek or you're way uphill from a town and the runoff from your land clearly goes down into a creek or into town then you would need to be concerned. At that point an engineer can come in and design a detention pond and go from there.

I found this after looking at MN BMPs for ranges
http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/destinations/shooting_ranges/outdoor_shooting_best_practices.pdf

You could also ask the NRA to look at it.
Shooting Range Services|Shooting Range Services

Civil engineers typically do this type of design and paperwork if anything needs to be done at all.

 

[lash]

^^^^^^^
Good useful post [MENTION=40249]caelumatra[/MENTION]! Thanks.