New rifle issues with finding load

[TimResin]

So just got a .308 built by GA Precision.
Specs to help

Bartlein 1-10 26"
ARC CDG
Area 419 Hellfire
using garmin xero to measure

Brand new lapua lrp brass
210M Primers(they are from 2010)
Varget
Berger 175 OTM

So gun was broken using GA Precision Instructions

Brass prep. Chaffer and debur. then neck size with no mandrel.
Measuring using RCBS charge master. then 10-10 with manual trickler to finish

42.9 es of 35.8 sd 13.4. 9 shots
42.4 es 45.7 sd 15 10 shots
43.5 es 48.5 sd 14 10 shots

All of that was with a 8 pound of varget from 2010
So I opened a brand new 1 pound of varget still sealed bought 2023

43 es 27.8 sd 8.3 10 shots
so I thought bingo I solved it
but for the heck of it my next 11 I used a stand alone .306 mandrel sinclair model on top of the same brass prep
Also I used a K+M Primer Pocket Uniformer on the next set of 100 Brass. Highly doubt that did anything
43 es 41.8 sd 14 11 shots

Im pulling my hair out. So gun has 111 rounds through it, so wondering if the barrel is still breaking in so to speak. Is it because its brand new brass and its fire forming slightly.

I just bought a Erik Cortina FL Micro Die with a .334 bushing. Loaded rounds at .337. I have 200 Pieces, once I have once fired them all I will start using my new die. I plan on selling the neck die.

Thanks for any help

 

[ShtrRdy]

New brass will generally result in a wider spread of velocity readings.

 

[JR1200W3]

Is this all about the SDs and ES? People place too much emphasis on having single digit SDs and mid teens ES. Then they shoot 90% of their targets under 700yds where it doesn't matter.

How are the groups?

 

[TimResin]

Pretty good 4in 10 shoot at 500. Im shooting PRS matches that go out to 1050.

 

[kthomas]

Your ES and SD should tighten up on the 2-3x firing on the brass.

Otherwise, just try to be as consistent as possible - bump the shoulders consistently, seat the bullets consistently, have consistent neck tension, consistent powder throws, etc.

Honestly, there isn't much to it. You are using good quality components, so you are on your way. I wouldn't sweat it too much.

 

[Rocketmandb]

So just got a .308 built by GA Precision.
Specs to help

Bartlein 1-10 26"
ARC CDG
Area 419 Hellfire
using garmin xero to measure

Brand new lapua lrp brass
210M Primers(they are from 2010)
Varget
Berger 175 OTM

So gun was broken using GA Precision Instructions

Brass prep. Chaffer and debur. then neck size with no mandrel.
Measuring using RCBS charge master. then 10-10 with manual trickler to finish

42.9 es of 35.8 sd 13.4. 9 shots
42.4 es 45.7 sd 15 10 shots
43.5 es 48.5 sd 14 10 shots

All of that was with a 8 pound of varget from 2010
So I opened a brand new 1 pound of varget still sealed bought 2023

43 es 27.8 sd 8.3 10 shots
so I thought bingo I solved it
but for the heck of it my next 11 I used a stand alone .306 mandrel sinclair model on top of the same brass prep
Also I used a K+M Primer Pocket Uniformer on the next set of 100 Brass. Highly doubt that did anything
43 es 41.8 sd 14 11 shots

Im pulling my hair out. So gun has 111 rounds through it, so wondering if the barrel is still breaking in so to speak. Is it because its brand new brass and its fire forming slightly.

I just bought a Erik Cortina FL Micro Die with a .334 bushing. Loaded rounds at .337. I have 200 Pieces, once I have once fired them all I will start using my new die. I plan on selling the neck die.

Thanks for any help

General feedback:

- You absolutely should be using a mandrel, especially on virgin brass. Lapua This will be a major contributor to your SDs.

- I see you're uniforming primer pockets, but not deburring the flash holes. K&M makes a good tool for that too. That will impact how quickly the primer charge hits the powder, which impacts initial burn rate, which impacts pressure profile consistency, which impacts SDs/

- SDs on virgin brass will always be on the crappier side of things. I'm still speeding up my barrel using virgin Lapua and 43.5 gr of Varget and Berger 155.5 Full Bore. This was the last 75 yesterday. Slightly better than you're getting, but close. I expect to get mine down to 6-7ish on once-fired.

 

[918v]

So just got a .308 built by GA Precision.
Specs to help

Bartlein 1-10 26"
ARC CDG
Area 419 Hellfire
using garmin xero to measure

Brand new lapua lrp brass
210M Primers(they are from 2010)
Varget
Berger 175 OTM

So gun was broken using GA Precision Instructions

Brass prep. Chaffer and debur. then neck size with no mandrel.
Measuring using RCBS charge master. then 10-10 with manual trickler to finish

42.9 es of 35.8 sd 13.4. 9 shots
42.4 es 45.7 sd 15 10 shots
43.5 es 48.5 sd 14 10 shots

All of that was with a 8 pound of varget from 2010
So I opened a brand new 1 pound of varget still sealed bought 2023

43 es 27.8 sd 8.3 10 shots
so I thought bingo I solved it
but for the heck of it my next 11 I used a stand alone .306 mandrel sinclair model on top of the same brass prep
Also I used a K+M Primer Pocket Uniformer on the next set of 100 Brass. Highly doubt that did anything
43 es 41.8 sd 14 11 shots

Im pulling my hair out. So gun has 111 rounds through it, so wondering if the barrel is still breaking in so to speak. Is it because its brand new brass and its fire forming slightly.

I just bought a Erik Cortina FL Micro Die with a .334 bushing. Loaded rounds at .337. I have 200 Pieces, once I have once fired them all I will start using my new die. I plan on selling the neck die.

Thanks for any help

How did you arrive at those powder charges? What’s your coal? How much did you neck size? Did you use lube to expand the neck?

 

[BenE]

With only 111 rounds down the pipe I’d lean towards the barrel is simply speeding up and should become increasingly more consistent from here on out. Most hand loaders don’t begin load development until 100-200 round have been shot Occam’s razor

 

[Taylorbok]

I'd say the issue lies between barrel settling in and new brass. I'd just load the rest of your brass and go shoot. then come back and try to establish a load.

 

[RegionRat]

Sometimes, we just borescope the barrel and or just clean it really well regardless, and re-baseline some 308 FGMM to see how a new rig does.

Your recipe has been run many times, so that is usually taken off the troubleshooting list. Nothing wrong with double checking everything again or having a fresh set of eyes do it.

If it still doesn't smell right, then I would ring George or one of his folks and get advice. They may ask you to check the firing pin, spring, and function before going farther, but I would also expect them to ask you to baseline test with whatever factory match ammo they use before taking the next steps.

The troubleshooting process is likely to point at something in your prep or loading process just based on how many 308s I have seen from GAP, but it isn't impossible to find something in the barrel or ignition on a rare occasion.

Hang in there. All that stuff is good so stick with it and you will find it. Good luck and in for the range reports.

 

[Dave62677]

Shoot another 100 rd then revisit your reloads. You are not giving up much barrel life of 308.

 

[Rocketmandb]

Shoot another 100 rd then revisit your reloads. You are not giving up much barrel life of 308.

The barrel should be sped up at his current count (110+), and he has once-fired brass. Load dev should be fine now with both of those behind him and a good reloading process.

 

[Taylorbok]

The barrel should be sped up at his current count (110+), and he has once-fired brass. Load dev should be fine now with both of those behind him and a good reloading process.

I’ve found 150 is usually the number where barrel is done doing its thing. Plus he still has brass to fire form.

 

[TimResin]

Still have about 70 pieces of brass to go then they will be all once fired. I just got my Erik Cortina FL Die. Will use that with a .333 bushing then a .306 mandrel. I will use Hornady oneshot lube and see how it goes

 

[TimResin]

Well I everything has been 1x fired.
I used my Erik Cortina FL Micro Die Bumped the shoulder back .0015

9 Shots

ES: 28.3
SD: 7.7
AVG 2626.8

261 rounds through the gun

Im wondering if that ES is ok. My next too PRS matches are at ranges that go to a 1000

 

[kthomas]

Well I everything has been 1x fired.
I used my Erik Cortina FL Micro Die Bumped the shoulder back .0015

9 Shots

ES: 28.3
SD: 7.7
AVG 2626.8

261 rounds through the gun

Im wondering if that ES is ok. My next too PRS matches are at ranges that go to a 1000

That ES is perfectly fine for PRS matches.

ES is not a great predictor of MV anyways. SD is. And an SD of 7.7 is good ammo.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

The barrel should be sped up at his current count (110+), and he has once-fired brass. Load dev should be fine now with both of those behind him and a good reloading process.

Every barrel is different. That's bad advice.

 

[diggler1833]

I'll agree that each barrel is different, and will speed up at different points between 50 - 250 rounds.

However I have found that accurate loads discovered at shots 15 - 25 are generally just as accurate as shots 150 - 250. So I'll start my load development while I'm breaking in a barrel. I keep notes...have yet to have to adjust the powder charge more than 1% when shooting virgin brass in a new barrel. That does not mean my velocities stay the same, because they don't. It means that my accuracy is generally unaffected by the barel speeding up.

YMMV.

 

[straightshooter1]

Well I everything has been 1x fired.
I used my Erik Cortina FL Micro Die Bumped the shoulder back .0015

9 Shots

ES: 28.3
SD: 7.7
AVG 2626.8

261 rounds through the gun

Im wondering if that ES is ok. My next too PRS matches are at ranges that go to a 1000

Looks like you're doing a lot of good things with your brass prep. What scale are you using to measure your powder (I didn't see you mention it anywhere here)?

That SD and ES is good to go for PRS, assuming you can repeat that. Though, keep in mind that with 20-30 shots those ES's are very likely going to be higher.

 

[TimResin]

RCBS Charge master then put on a 10-10 scale to verify and trickle if necessary. Im on the waiting list for the Ingenuity Powder System 3.

 

[jsthntn247]

So just got a .308 built by GA Precision.
Specs to help

Bartlein 1-10 26"
ARC CDG
Area 419 Hellfire
using garmin xero to measure

Brand new lapua lrp brass
210M Primers(they are from 2010)
Varget
Berger 175 OTM

So gun was broken using GA Precision Instructions

Brass prep. Chaffer and debur. then neck size with no mandrel.
Measuring using RCBS charge master. then 10-10 with manual trickler to finish

42.9 es of 35.8 sd 13.4. 9 shots
42.4 es 45.7 sd 15 10 shots
43.5 es 48.5 sd 14 10 shots

All of that was with a 8 pound of varget from 2010
So I opened a brand new 1 pound of varget still sealed bought 2023

43 es 27.8 sd 8.3 10 shots
so I thought bingo I solved it
but for the heck of it my next 11 I used a stand alone .306 mandrel sinclair model on top of the same brass prep
Also I used a K+M Primer Pocket Uniformer on the next set of 100 Brass. Highly doubt that did anything
43 es 41.8 sd 14 11 shots

Im pulling my hair out. So gun has 111 rounds through it, so wondering if the barrel is still breaking in so to speak. Is it because its brand new brass and its fire forming slightly.

I just bought a Erik Cortina FL Micro Die with a .334 bushing. Loaded rounds at .337. I have 200 Pieces, once I have once fired them all I will start using my new die. I plan on selling the neck die.

Thanks for any help

Sounds like your brass prep is spot on. However, why did you stop short of 44 grains? Did your reach pressure? There is a well know FTR load for that bullet, brass combo of 46.2gr of Varget with a .090 FB reamer. Ease your load up in .3 gr increments until you see pressure at a .010 jump and I’ll guarantee you start to one hole.

 

[straightshooter1]

RCBS Charge master then put on a 10-10 scale to verify and trickle if necessary. Im on the waiting list for the Ingenuity Powder System 3.

I too am in waiting for that system, though I already have the FX-120i. Based on my experience the the FX-120i, I feel you'll see a dramatic improvement in ES's and SD's once you get it. It's not that what you've got is particularly "bad", it's just that it's a big part of the issue you've been having IMHO (I also have an RCBS ChargeMaster and very well know what the IPS3 will bring to the table for you). For me, this system will not really improve the results I get with my FX-120i, but it well certainly speed things up for me.

 

[TimResin]

thats alot of varget hodgon says max 45 with a 175.

 

[918v]

thats alot of varget hodgon says max 45 with a 175.

and that’s in a Winchester case, not Lapua. I wouldn’t go over 43.5 grains in a lapua case.

 

[Chris1972]

My best load with 178 A-Max and Lapua brass was significantly more Varget than you’re testing. I’ll not make recommendations, but I don’t think you’re there yet.

 

[jsthntn247]

Same thing I say

 

[supercorndogs]

and that’s in a Winchester case, not Lapua. I wouldn’t go over 43.5 grains in a lapua case.

Mine shows ejector marks at 43.5g of varget in a lapua case with a 175smk. 42.6g is where I ended up shooting 2620.

43.5 or rl15 in hornady match brass (165g) with a 178 amax is 2735 in mine. And shoots about any 175 I put on top of it. Kreiger barrel.

The freebore on mine is not very long.

 

[TimResin]

Well I can't find berger 175 otm in stock anywhere. So Im gonna switch to 174 ELD VT. Im going to redo load development. Is the ladder test still a accurate method?

I listened to the hornady podcast a few weeks ago and they blasted the ladder test.

 

[Doom]

Is the ladder test still a accurate method?

If you shot a ladder test originally you haven't posted the target which is what ladder tests are based on. In almost all centerfire cartridges you can shoot a ladder test at 100yds but with only one shot per load the results are usually muddled. Also at 100yds muzzle velocity has an extremely small impact on POI. The majority of the variation in point of impact is due to the rifle as a system and the shooter. A system called OCW (Optimum Charge Weight by Dan Newberry) is one effective system that works to find a repeatable point of impact for a given rifle. It is a 3 shot/charge ladder. If "nodes" don't exist then the OCW method should show this.

You can play with the chronograph and reloading all day but without target data it's just that, playing. Your rifle may or may not be sensitive to charge weight. Once you find a load that you can shoot with repeatable points of impact at 100yds, then you can look at your chronograph data and seating depth to refine and optimize your load. Your data shows you are doing pretty good on reloading so I wouldn't worry about your SD at this point. Find the load the rifle likes.

As for the Hornady Podcast, much of what they address is reading too much into too little data and responding to the random noise that occurs in testing. You also have to consider that they are dealing with rifles tailored to specific disciplines which may or may not affect there results. A commercial 7-1/2 lb hunting rifle and a 18 lb F-TR is likely to behave differently.

 

[Doom]

42.9 es of 35.8 sd 13.4. 9 shots
42.4 es 45.7 sd 15 10 shots
43.5 es 48.5 sd 14 10 shots

All of that was with a 8 pound of varget from 2010
So I opened a brand new 1 pound of varget still sealed bought 2023

43 es 27.8 sd 8.3 10 shots
so I thought bingo I solved it

in relation to some of Hornady's investigations and obervations consider the following. You conclude that your 8 SD less than your 15 SD? If analyzed ( F-Test) that would be the conclusion but what about the 13.4 SD. In this case the 13.4 SD result would not reach that conclusion. You also cannot conclude that the 8 SD is (8-15)/15x100 or 47% better. At issue here is insufficient data.

If you were test test a lot of 10 shot strings like the 8.3 SD rounds you would expect 95% (Confidence Interval) of them to fall between 5.7 and 15.15 fps. For the 15 it would be 10.34 to 27.38. For the 13.4 its 9.05 and 25.67 fps.

You have however loaded and shot 39 rounds with standard deviations of 15 or less in 4 groups of nine or ten. We cannot directly look at the effects of sampling by regrouping the individual shots since the velocities/loads are different. We can make an anecdotal conclusion that you are loading consistently around 15 fps ammunition which isn't bad at all.

 

[918v]

Well I can't find berger 175 otm in stock anywhere. So Im gonna switch to 174 ELD VT. Im going to redo load development. Is the ladder test still a accurate method?

I listened to the hornady podcast a few weeks ago and they blasted the ladder test.

Blue Collar Reloading has them.

BTW, what was your coal and how far off the lands were they?

 

[TimResin]

not sure about coal but im .015 off the lands

 

[918v]

I’ve been shooting that bullet for many years. I’ve found it to be most accurate at 2.810” in several rifles. At .015” off I think you don’t have much of the bullet shank in the neck which is causing your problem. Lapua necks are real soft when they’re new. So your bullet hold is very light, which causes combustion issues. Maybe if you could seat the bullet deeper then the neck would grip the bullet better and your ES would go down. You’re going to have this issue with the ELD VT as well.

 

[TimResin]

These were from monday temps around 70. Took your advice seated them deeper at .064 off the lands at OAL of 2.142 and COAL 2.866. I have 9 rounds ill try tomorrow.

I have a hundred loaded for a match saturday. so if it looks better ill seat them all deeper. I know 9 isnt a large sample set. also this is the second firing.

 

[TimResin]

this is the day after the match also April 21st temps at about 55.

 

[TimResin]

Dont know if it was the temperature or now that i jumped thoses rounds .064 but way worse.

52 degrees. I thought varget wasnt temp sensitive as well? accuracy is awesome those if you don’t count that flyer 8 shots under half moa

 

[TimResin]

 

[918v]

90 FPS spread tells me there’s a big problem.

 

[918v]

Are you putting anything in the neck?

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Changing seating depth by .030" will require a new load work up. If you do your load development at a specific COAL and then make a large depth change (+ or -), your pressures will change significantly too. Generally I have found optimal depth for a specific charge to be fairly close to the depth during the initial development.

 

[TimResin]

Ill leave it at .015 jump. i changed it by .04. honestly i guess 10 sd 30 es is ok.

Ill start fresh with the ELD VT. My question is should i figure out seating depth or charge first.

 

[BenE]

Bore condition will affect velocity. If you are measuring speed on a clean bore and the first mag then yes you sd/es are going to look bad. You need to observe on a “fouled” bore. I ask because your results after the match look great, can’t ask for much more that than.

 

[TimResin]

nope haven’t cleaned it yet at about 134 since last clean.

I want to develop my 174 as best as I can. What Im wondering is should I load them at 2.83 so that way the neck is touching alot of bearing surface?

Then start finding the charge? I was going to do ten of each. 42.6 to 43.5 in 10th increments.

 

[918v]

You should clean it.

 

[TimResin]

Really? I was thinking every 250 rounds. I like reading precision rifle blog. This is what he pulled from the some shooters https://precisionrifleblog.com/2024/04/20/best-custom-rifle-barrel-what-the-pros-use/ for cleaning. Honestly I would love if there is a reloading class some where. In developing a load Im pretty sure Ive never developed a load correctly usually I stumble on getting my sd's below 10 and .5 MOA

 

[JR1200W3]

Honestly I would love if there is a reloading class some where.

That would be like giving a class on how to argue with your wife. Everyone does it different and has their own opinion on how to do it best. Sometimes it just takes years of practice to do a really good job of fucking it up. Try to boil the process down to the bare minimum. 0 - slamming the door in each other's faces in under 60 secs flat. Saves everyone time and energy to reach the same point.

 

[918v]

Really? I was thinking every 250 rounds. I like reading precision rifle blog. This is what he pulled from the some shooters https://precisionrifleblog.com/2024/04/20/best-custom-rifle-barrel-what-the-pros-use/ for cleaning. Honestly I would love if there is a reloading class some where. In developing a load Im pretty sure Ive never developed a load correctly usually I stumble on getting my sd's below 10 and .5 MOA

Not cleaning is a great way to build a carbon ring in the throat.

 

[Doom]

@TimResin, as far seating depth you are using a new bullet that has little info available as to what people have found for a range of seating depths and this bullet is quite a bit different than anything out there right now. Reading the info leads me to believe that this bullet may not perform well in the 308 chamber but I would recommend that you stay somewhere around the 2.800-2.810' range for COAL. Don't spend a lot of time looking at chronograph data at this point. Let the target tell you where you need to be on charge weight.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

nope haven’t cleaned it yet at about 134 since last clean.

I want to develop my 174 as best as I can. What Im wondering is should I load them at 2.83 so that way the neck is touching alot of bearing surface?

Then start finding the charge? I was going to do ten of each. 42.6 to 43.5 in 10th increments.

I'm all about not cleaning guns for years and years but it's a new barrel and needs to be cleaned frequently until velocities stabilize.

 

[TimResin]

@TimResin, as far seating depth you are using a new bullet that has little info available as to what people have found for a range of seating depths and this bullet is quite a bit different than anything out there right now. Reading the info leads me to believe that this bullet may not perform well in the 308 chamber but I would recommend that you stay somewhere around the 2.800-2.810' range for COAL. Don't spend a lot of time looking at chronograph data at this point. Let the target tell you where you need to be on charge weight.

Well I have enough berger 175 left to shoot May 18th PRS match im doing. My next match is June 1st so im hoping to have something developed by the then