Just picked up a Savage model 10 Precision Carbine in .223. As of now it will be a mix of a precision rig/ coyote and pdog rig. SO do I do the barrel break in Savage suggests or is there a better way out there?
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New Rifle what break in?
- Thread starter neeltburn
- Start date
The Savage break in procedure is similar to what GAP recommends, except for the oil. How many break in rounds depends on how much copper you are seeing. Of course a lot say to just shoot it.
OFG
OFG
do it like they recommend - even custom barrel makers seem to recommend a break-in. Lilja's website has their recommendations - for their barrels - and I don't think anybody could argue that they don't know how to make accurate barrels.
I guess I messed up cause I just took my new custom FCP-SR out and shot it. I did run a patch w/#9 on it after each shot for the first 10 shots followed by dry patches. I like to know more about the oil thing? I've never done that. Seems like hydraulic pressure ahead of a bullet would not be a good thing but then again I've people shoot guns under water. So I guess no big deal.
My understanding is that the FBI testing showed no difference in pre and post break-in on new rifles.
that being said, the manufacturer knows best.
I took a 700 off the shelf this week and shot 200 rounds through with .75-1 MOA over several days. Cleaned it with solvent and bore brush every 20 rounds or so. I would call that broke in lol
<---- new guy
that being said, the manufacturer knows best.
I took a 700 off the shelf this week and shot 200 rounds through with .75-1 MOA over several days. Cleaned it with solvent and bore brush every 20 rounds or so. I would call that broke in lol
<---- new guy
Clean it after the first shot, you should see some blue from copper fouling, shoot it 2 more times, clean it, if you dont see any blue(copper) on the patch you should be good to go, shoot and keep on shooting.
The typical factory Savage barrel is going to take at least 30 and as many as 100 rounds to stop being a copper collector.
That said, my unscientific method with any new barrel is to run a patch or two down the tube, then shoot the damn thing 40-50 times to sight in and run initial OCW during the first range trip, then clean it until its clear of copper, then subsequently shoot it until accuracy degrades.
Not sure there is a "right" way to break in a barrel, just plenty of differing techniques.
That said, my unscientific method with any new barrel is to run a patch or two down the tube, then shoot the damn thing 40-50 times to sight in and run initial OCW during the first range trip, then clean it until its clear of copper, then subsequently shoot it until accuracy degrades.
Not sure there is a "right" way to break in a barrel, just plenty of differing techniques.
This is probably the best description of barrel break-in I've seen:
AR10 Noveske Match Barrel Break In - YouTube
AR10 Noveske Match Barrel Break In - YouTube
If a break-in process gives you comfort, the Savage instructions are fine. I agree with Savage, there should always be a thin film of oil in a clean barrel before firing.
Whether or not you do a break-in, be certain to give the bore a thorough cleaning before its first firing; most factory barrels I've bought have had an amazing accumulation of grit and other factory floor garbage in their interiors.
I clean with Outer's Gunslick Bore Cleaner Foam and patches. It's very easy, and a couple of borescope exams demonstrated conclusively to me that this stuff gets it all out. I clean at end of season, when changing bullets, when the rifle will be put up for more than a month, and/or when the rifle has been put up for more than a month. Mostly for me, it's about preempting the possibility for bore pitting.
I seldom use a brush, and when I do, it's for the purpose of spreading liquid bore solvent down into the rifling grooves before soaking, and I prefer a nylon bristle/aluminum core brush for this, as it is less likely to provide a false copper fouling stain on my patches. A brush may or may not be effective for breaking down fouling, and bronze brushes deteriorate from contact with copper solvents. Repetitive bore stroking with a brush may increase the potential for cleaning rod bore damage. My cleaning strategy is predicated on allowing the cleaning solvent to do the work over time. I use an extra length steel slotted tip, not a jag; it sometimes permits a larger patch which can apply and remove more solvent.
When I clean after firing ammo with corrosive priming, I do it the same way, then follow up by soaking the bore with Windex to dissolve any latent corrosive salts and patching it dry, and I finish up all my cleanings with a good coating of oil in the bore.
My rod is a Pro-Shot one piece stainless rod, and I use a Pro-Shot adjustable cleaning rod guide; no special reason for this brand, it's what was available where I bought them. I wipe the rod with a shop cloth each and every time it emerges from the bore to reduce the potential for cleaning rod bore wear.
Greg
Whether or not you do a break-in, be certain to give the bore a thorough cleaning before its first firing; most factory barrels I've bought have had an amazing accumulation of grit and other factory floor garbage in their interiors.
I clean with Outer's Gunslick Bore Cleaner Foam and patches. It's very easy, and a couple of borescope exams demonstrated conclusively to me that this stuff gets it all out. I clean at end of season, when changing bullets, when the rifle will be put up for more than a month, and/or when the rifle has been put up for more than a month. Mostly for me, it's about preempting the possibility for bore pitting.
I seldom use a brush, and when I do, it's for the purpose of spreading liquid bore solvent down into the rifling grooves before soaking, and I prefer a nylon bristle/aluminum core brush for this, as it is less likely to provide a false copper fouling stain on my patches. A brush may or may not be effective for breaking down fouling, and bronze brushes deteriorate from contact with copper solvents. Repetitive bore stroking with a brush may increase the potential for cleaning rod bore damage. My cleaning strategy is predicated on allowing the cleaning solvent to do the work over time. I use an extra length steel slotted tip, not a jag; it sometimes permits a larger patch which can apply and remove more solvent.
When I clean after firing ammo with corrosive priming, I do it the same way, then follow up by soaking the bore with Windex to dissolve any latent corrosive salts and patching it dry, and I finish up all my cleanings with a good coating of oil in the bore.
My rod is a Pro-Shot one piece stainless rod, and I use a Pro-Shot adjustable cleaning rod guide; no special reason for this brand, it's what was available where I bought them. I wipe the rod with a shop cloth each and every time it emerges from the bore to reduce the potential for cleaning rod bore wear.
Greg
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LonewolfUSMC has some really awesome videos, and I have debated in doing just what he describes in that video.
Sent from my IPhone 4s An AT&T not so 4G phone via Tapatalk.
Good point about making sure the barrel is clean before first firing. I get to partake in this ritual this week. Mongo happy...
Always wondered bout barrel break in. I don't believe it to be necessary. Just remember to clean it before shooting
SO I did the Savage suggested break in and it looks to be the normal 3/4 -1in typical savage quality. Of course this load is by no mean tailored to the rifle, but its 1-9 in twist will stabilize 69 SMK MKs with 25gns of Varget. Now to work up a load.
I imagine it's too late now...but I would've suggested pushing a few patches through before you shot it for the first time. Then just.....shoot the fucker.
That video is the AWSOME! I've always believed in McMillan saying "break in is a barrel makers way to sell more barrel."
I admit I've believed the hype but some of my rifles will NOT shoot unless they are fouled. One in particular wont shoot after cleaning for at least 30 rounds
New member here, and a question on the break in thing, does the speed of the bullet make any difference on the shoot & clean method. I ask as I have a bunch of 150 + gn. 30 Cal. dud tracers, 1 out of 10 may light but it takes a bunch of powder . I was thinking of using the dud's and 4759, a reduced velocity powder, and I can sent these into dead tree in the back yard.
It might take a while , but trust me it can be done. Especially with a .300 win mag
I thought there was a sticky here somewhere about barrel break-in but I can't find it now. I was looking for information about this a couple of years ago and found a lot of threads (do a search) but the jest of it was that by cleaning after every shot shooters were putting more wear and scratches in barrels than just shooting would do.
I'm with Graham on that one...probably not such a good idea. Even if they weren't, you're probably better off using some inexpensive factory ammo if you really feel the need to do a barrel break-in. I used to do it, but realized it really didn't make any detectable difference in my hands for rifles with high end Bartlein barrels. I do a few quick patches with Hoppes #9 to get any residue out, one patch of oil, then 3-4 dry for a brand new barrel. Then it's off to shoot it and normal cleaning procedure after that.
I don't like oil in the bore. First off it will cause fliers. Second of all most guys use to much and get it into the chamber as well. Any oil or solvent in the chamber will cause pressure issues and is not safe. For an instant when you pull the trigger the brass case should bite the chamber walls. If there is any oil/solvent/water in the chamber all the pressure and thrust will be directed towards the bolt face. It causes the bolt to open hard just for starters besides it not being safe.
If your using a brush don't drag it back over the muzzles crown. Start it from the breech and push it all the way out. Take it off before pulling your cleaning rod back thru the bore.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
If your using a brush don't drag it back over the muzzles crown. Start it from the breech and push it all the way out. Take it off before pulling your cleaning rod back thru the bore.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
DO NOT shoot a bore that has oil in it. I don't know where or why that came out, but it's a good way to get waaaaayyy too much pressure in a bore during firing. It doesn't take a lot. It's about like firing a British/Argentinian/Belgian/Russian .3105" bullet in an American .308" bore. That tiny little layer of oil can, under the extreme pressure of a bullet moving through a barrel, act like a solid and cause over-pressure during firing.
Clean the rifle down to bare metal before you fire it, and don't leave oil in your barrel unless you plan on storing it.
FWIW, barrel break in is mostly only of value to bench rest shooters. All you are trying to do is expose any last machining marks to the high pressure and heat of firing and knocking them down what you can. Most of this should have been done (especially custom barrels) when the lapping procedure is done.
For the most part this is really only effective for benchrest shooters trying to knock out the last .2" or less out of their groups.
Contrary to popular belief angular dispersion at short range does not directly correlate to angular dispersion at longer ranges. As a bullet travels the first 100 yds., it begins by "yawing" as it comes out of the barrel. This effect is exacerbated when longer skinner bullets are used such as those streamlined for long distance work. Those bullets specifically made for short distance accuracy do not "yaw" as much when leaving the barrel. As the bullet travels downrange, it stabilizes. Once it has stabilized it wants to follow the vector the barrel sent it out on. Unless a side force is applied to the bullet for the duration of it's flight it will always want to follow it's original path. Thats why you see bullets "going to sleep". The inital yaw takes them off their aimed path. But, they parallel it to their conclusion. Typical of a long bullet you might see 2" groups @ 100 yds. But, see 2.5" groups @ 500 yds. That is because the bullet yawed and strayed away from it's inital path. But, the yaw was momentary so the bullet followed it's original vector and stayed within it's initial variation to it's conclusion at 500 yds. With an added .1 moa angular dispersion.
Shorter bullets on the other hand, especially those made for accuracy, will not yaw upon leaving the barrel. And therefore stay very true to the vector they were sent on. Angular dispersion is minimal with these. And, they are used for that because short range accuracy is at a premium. The tradeoff being, they don't do well at longer ranges.
All that said "barrel break in" is strictly for minimizing that little "if" when short range shooting. It may or may not help with long range shooting.
Clean the rifle down to bare metal before you fire it, and don't leave oil in your barrel unless you plan on storing it.
FWIW, barrel break in is mostly only of value to bench rest shooters. All you are trying to do is expose any last machining marks to the high pressure and heat of firing and knocking them down what you can. Most of this should have been done (especially custom barrels) when the lapping procedure is done.
For the most part this is really only effective for benchrest shooters trying to knock out the last .2" or less out of their groups.
Contrary to popular belief angular dispersion at short range does not directly correlate to angular dispersion at longer ranges. As a bullet travels the first 100 yds., it begins by "yawing" as it comes out of the barrel. This effect is exacerbated when longer skinner bullets are used such as those streamlined for long distance work. Those bullets specifically made for short distance accuracy do not "yaw" as much when leaving the barrel. As the bullet travels downrange, it stabilizes. Once it has stabilized it wants to follow the vector the barrel sent it out on. Unless a side force is applied to the bullet for the duration of it's flight it will always want to follow it's original path. Thats why you see bullets "going to sleep". The inital yaw takes them off their aimed path. But, they parallel it to their conclusion. Typical of a long bullet you might see 2" groups @ 100 yds. But, see 2.5" groups @ 500 yds. That is because the bullet yawed and strayed away from it's inital path. But, the yaw was momentary so the bullet followed it's original vector and stayed within it's initial variation to it's conclusion at 500 yds. With an added .1 moa angular dispersion.
Shorter bullets on the other hand, especially those made for accuracy, will not yaw upon leaving the barrel. And therefore stay very true to the vector they were sent on. Angular dispersion is minimal with these. And, they are used for that because short range accuracy is at a premium. The tradeoff being, they don't do well at longer ranges.
All that said "barrel break in" is strictly for minimizing that little "if" when short range shooting. It may or may not help with long range shooting.
My own personal method is as follows 5 shots, clean, 5 shots, clean, 10 shots clean, 10 shots, clean, 20 shots, clean until you hit 100. The barrel is now broke in. BUT, and I say BUT whatever works for you. I have bought new rifles, cleaned them after the first shoot, and they seemed to work just fine. But when I just spent $375 on a new barrel, I will run it in properly, just to ease my mind.
I used to take a half a day breaking in a barrel as I was old school. But after reading the musing of many of those who are more experienced and more knowledgeable than I am, I just shoot and after the first session do a through cleaning with copper cleaner and then just clean as needed. On my bench rest rifles I buy hand lapped barrels so I don't break them in either.
This thread is starting to hurt my head.................I would like someone to SHOW me how it's detrimental to my barrel if I don't "break it in". Otherwise, why do it? BTW I don't break in my barrels, and they shoot just fine.
Thank you sir for posting this. I am not smart enough to explain this, though I knew it to be true. This is also why people think I am crazy when I tell them to test their LR loads at 300 instead of 100yds.
I would like to see evidence of a bullet shooting 2" groups at 100 yds and then shooting 2.5 at 500. Just does not happen, dispersion is increased with flight. When the bullet leaves the barrel and is sent on its path it does not magically veer off its path just because it passes 100yds. Nor does it happen opposite. (I am not speaking of bullets passing through the sound barrier)
If what your saying hold true and the yaw and spin of the bullet don't settle until after 100 yds, how do we shoot one hole groups at 100yds with VLD's and AMAXS? The reason these types of bullets do so well at distance is there design. Speed also has an effect in that the less travel time the less atmospheric conditions have an effect on the bullet, but velocity does not equal accuracy.
You are correct in that breaking in the barrel removes the last bit of tooling marks, it cleans easier, and generally shoots better at all ranges. The less you change the jacket on the bullet the better the results on target.
I'm no expert but it sounds like that much yaw would create an oval hole at 100. Strangely my yawless loads that shoot 1/4MOA at 100 end up shooting 1/2MOA at 500 on a calm day. Or are they yawless? It would be really cool if they shot 1/8 MOA by the time they made it to 500.
When the bullet leaves the barrel it is on a 'vector'. A vector is a combination of energy and direction of an object. Air is a medium. Force applied through a medium won't always move a bullet off it's vector. But, it will displace it to some degree every time. Of course the confusion in this theory is that we measure the end result in angular terms. One would have to see the angular dispersion as the bullets pass through each point on it's way to the final target.
And fwiw, you won't get smaller groups at distance. You will only at best get smaller 'angular' measurements.
Added:
The proof was that I was always told a crosswind up close would always move the bullet more. So one day at our 300 yd. range in MN, I had the perfect conditions, a 10 mph wind from 0-100 and seemingly nothing beyond to 300. According to my pre-printed drift chart I was supposed to get 4" of drift for that bullet at that velocity. I was able under those conditions to put together three bullets that only drifted 1" each @ 300. Some of that was normal dispersion of mine, but certainly not the 6" my chart said.
As far as shooting one hole groups every time with VLD's and A-max's, only to have them shoot wider at longer distances might say there are other factors downrange you are not seeing. Only when you can completely understand those factors (as in the use of downrange instruments) will you know exactly what the bullet is supposed to do. Here too, understand we didn't change our poa to get better scores, we just wanted to see what the bullets did under the given varying circumstances.
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D
Deleted member 10043
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Be careful. The 1911 is over a hundred years old.
So, what you are stating is that that a group at 100 yards can be more than 1 moa and another group at 300 yards can be less than 1 moa. Uh huh, we all know that.
GEICO Spelling Bee Commercial - Did You Know Old MacDonald Was a Really Bad Speller - YouTube
So, what you are stating is that that a group at 100 yards can be more than 1 moa and another group at 300 yards can be less than 1 moa. Uh huh, we all know that.
GEICO Spelling Bee Commercial - Did You Know Old MacDonald Was a Really Bad Speller - YouTube
According to Krieger, the rifling should not foul much if at all in a new (Krieger) barrel since it has been honed during manufacture, but reaming the throat leaves small tool marks perpendicular to the bullets travel. The throat will get polished after firing a few dozen rounds but until that happens, copper dust will get vaporized in the combustion plasma, then deposited on the rifling.
Krieger recommends cleaning with a copper solvent after each of the first few shots until the evidence of copper fouling starts to decrease, then every few shots, and so on. Krieger does not suggest that failing to follow this procedure will damage the barrel or make it a less accurate barrel. The point of this procedure is to prevent copper fouling from building quickly on a new barrel.
At a minimum I pull a bore snake half a dozen times through a new barrel and inspect the bore before shooting it the first time. If a firearm has not been fired for a while, I run a pass or two before I shoot it as well. I cringe at the idea that some small piece of abrasive material might have settled in the barrel and I could run a bullet over it at several thousand FPS.
Joe
Krieger recommends cleaning with a copper solvent after each of the first few shots until the evidence of copper fouling starts to decrease, then every few shots, and so on. Krieger does not suggest that failing to follow this procedure will damage the barrel or make it a less accurate barrel. The point of this procedure is to prevent copper fouling from building quickly on a new barrel.
At a minimum I pull a bore snake half a dozen times through a new barrel and inspect the bore before shooting it the first time. If a firearm has not been fired for a while, I run a pass or two before I shoot it as well. I cringe at the idea that some small piece of abrasive material might have settled in the barrel and I could run a bullet over it at several thousand FPS.
Joe
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Schneider has some interesting thoughts about liquid in the bore. Liquids generally don't compress. He argues that pressure (highly localized) is created between the bullet and the bore and that minor dimpling can occur to the barrel. I don't know..... Interesting.
