New Safe $4-5k budget. Where to buy?

jonthomps

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
  • Feb 9, 2009
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    Kansas City
    I'm in the market for a new safe. I'm looking at Amsec, maybe Graffunder (if I can swing it), etc. I don't want to have my pants pulled down over the shipping. Any other brands with a solid track record I should look at? Any advice on a reputable place to buy?
     
    Superior is a great bargain with a lot of solid features. Word is, members of Liberty Safes wanted to do things different and were shown the door. They took their knowledge and ideas to build Superior Safes. High temp rating and for longer than many others. Triple seal on the door, heavy plate thickness, 180 deg door, etc.

    Best safe is Graffunder but you need to check the floor strength to handle it and they are the most expensive. From there a four way tie with Liberty, Superior, Browning, and Amsec. My company owns high end Superior and mid-grade Liberty and we are happy with both. Get a good led light package for the inside along with a Golden Rod. Finally, no matter where it is, bolt it down using every bolt hole provided.
     
    If you are in the Midwest check out Johnson Safes. He is out of Indianapolis.

    If you are down south (I know he will ship too) C E Safes Home Page Welcome | Gun Safes and Vaults | Gun Safe Videos

    When I was looking for safes I was debating on buying online or local, I came to the conclusion that there isn't really any savings from buying online because of the cost of shipping, even by the time you pay sales tax when buying local.
    When I shopped I found that I might have been able to save $100-200 max by buying online, but when you are dropping $3000+ on something, what's a extra $100? For that I'd rather keep my money local and support the local guy.
     
    Check out Brown safes. Made in Cal. They have a great tutorial on safes. Ie steel sizes, fireproofing and locks. I love mine. The price tag is a little hire than you are looking for, but well worth the money. Again, their tutorial is first class.
     
    Sturdy safes are probably the best value for theft and fire protection. Set aside some of those funds for an insurance rider.

    Chip
     
    I'm in the market for a new safe. I'm looking at Amsec, maybe Graffunder (if I can swing it), etc. I don't want to have my pants pulled down over the shipping. Any other brands with a solid track record I should look at? Any advice on a reputable place to buy?

    I ordered mine direct from Liberty and had it shipped to the local Liberty dealer who brought it over to the house and placed it. I would assume other mfgrs would do the same if you have a local dealer for the brand you select. While peoples needs and budgets differ, I found safe research to be one of the hardest and most convoluted things to do to get an apples to apples comparrison when looking from one mfgr to another. In the end, I concluded Liberty offered the safe that met my needs and budget the best, so it's what I went with. YMMV, but I am happy with my Fatboy and just the other day I came accross this article on a Liberty safe in the news.

    Another Tornado Survivor, This Time a Liberty Safe
     
    The trouble with any safe is that every one knows you have one. As soon as you purchase one and have it installed, the criminal world knows where it is, what's in it and what is the risk reward for removing the content. Pay no attention to the salesmen, he knows nothing. Your best source of information are the safecrackers. One of the best ways to find a good Dial man is through a small spececialty safe shop. They usually have an employee that has gone straight. Don't expect too much information the first few visits, when they get to know you are not a cop you will get an earful on safes. Just be humble and honest, these cons have all got PHD's in smelling bull shit,
     
    Some good and strange advice here. The best thing I found was to look around and find someone local who I knowledgable. Be patient and spend some time really looking. Someone local will know where to find deals on both new and used safes. Looked for a group locally that is paid by companies and landlords to remove commercial safes no longer in use from properties. These safes can be a heck of a deal.

    Look around and be patient and really learn about the features of your safe. Make sure it is tl 15 min for the coin your talking about.
     
    Went to look at a local company that stocks the US-made Liberty line. Some good deals to be had. Their top two or three models look pretty nice. They said the warranty they came with was outstanding.
     
    Graffunder is top of the line. Their quality and protection is excellent.

    The Amsec BF series is absolutely the best value in any gun safe.

    I posted a very long reply on this subject here:

    http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...equipment/26665-best-gun-safe.html#post384528

    I am [edit:was] in the safe business so let me add a few things here.

    The best gun safe when price is no object are from Graffunder. I've seen a lot of gun safes and I don't think anything compares to them. They start at a insurance "B" rating (1/2" plate steel door and 1/4" walls) and go up to E Rate which is 1 1/2" plate steel door with 1" walls as well as custom options. They use a poured concrete-like fire liner giving even their 1/4" wall safes about 2" of thickness and a good burglary and fire resistance. Thicker safes offer even better protection:

    http://www.graffundersafes.com

    The best gun safe for people on a budget are the Amsec BF Series Safes. They have an honest 1/2" plate steel door and also have a poured light concrete fire liner and inner steel wall giving the safes also almost 2" of protection from fire and burglars. Their HS series safes are even heavier and feature a true UL listed burglary rating from a TL-15 to TL-30 (Tool resistant ratings):

    BF Series safes start at around the mid-1000s and go up from there:

    http://www.amsecusa.com/gun-safes-BF-main.htm

    The HS series are higher priced, but much heavier safes:

    http://www.amsecusa.com/gun-safes-HS-main.htm

    Amsec is a true safe company. What I mean by that is they make commercial safes for their primary business. The BF series Amsec safe is FAR more secure than even the best major brand gun safe you commonly see.

    The Graffunder can be had for the price of the high-end mainstream safes you see and completely blows them out of the water in terms of fit, finish and security. There is no comparison.

    Electronic locks vs. Mechanical. Honestly there isn't much difference in overall security for most applications. Burglars don't manipulate locks open. They tend to attack them with hand or power tools. I've never seen a safe professionally drilled open by a burglar to bypass the lock. It takes many thousands of dollars in specialized equipment, drill bits, bore scopes and knowledge to do this and the average meth tweaker just doesn't have these things.

    What they do have though are those power tools you left in your garage next to your safe and that big crow bar you left leaning up against the wall next to the sledgehammer. So worry more about how much steel your safe has on the door and walls and not whether they are going to bypass the lock. Make sure the safe you have in your home can withstand the power tools you also have there because they can, and often are, used to attack safes.

    With that said, my personal opinion are mechanical Group I type locks (manipulation resistant) are the most secure and also the least likely to break (no motors and solenoids to go bad). HOWEVER, they are not as fast to get into either. If you want a reliable electronic lock I'd lean towards the LaGard brand and would avoid the Sargent and Greenleaf electronic locks (although their mechanical locks are great). Other electronic lock brands fall between these two extremes for reliability. IMO. In short: Electronic locks = convenience. Mechanical locks = reliability. You have to pick one or the other. Mechanical locks can fail and cause a lockout, but this is far more common with electronic locks.

    Bolt down your safe. I don't really care how heavy it is unless it's something more than a couple thousand pounds. I've seen very large safes stolen. It happens all the time. If someone got the safe into your house, then it can be gotten out. One man with an appliance dolly can remove a typical gun safe if you think about it. So go to the hardware store and spend 10 bucks on some anchor bolts and tie that thing down to your foundation. Any safe, no matter how strong, is going to be opened if the crooks get it back to their own shop and have time to work on it.

    Safes are lightning rods for burglars and you can be sure that if they come across your safe when in your home it's going to draw more than casual attention. So that means you need it to be able to withstand protracted and perhaps brutal attacks for many minutes, or perhaps longer. The only way to make sure this can happen is for the safe to have lots of steel in it and perhaps some concrete of some type. The Graffunder and Amsec safes do this. Other safe brands you commonly see do not. Be sure to bolt these other safes down as that will increase their protection.

    You should also place your safe out of obvious view (for instance I wouldn't put it in a garage where someone could see it from the street). I also would tend to put it in a corner with perhaps the opening edge closer to the wall (so door opens away from the wall and not towards it). Why? Because by doing so you make it harder for someone to get pry tools to work on the opening edge with the wall in the way. It's much harder for them to get leverage as they will hit the wall when putting the biting edge of a crow bar on the opening side.

    Bolt Work: Honestly this is just a marketing gimmick. More bolts does not mean a safe is more secure necessarily. It may just mean it's more prone to failure as there are more linkages to go bad. I've worked on very large high security Jeweler's safes with just eight bolts (insured to hold $1,000,000+ in jewels). There is no way that these gun safes with 32+ bolts on them are more secure than those jeweler's safes. So don't worry about number of bolts. Worry about how much steel that thing has in the walls and door.

    Other things in a safe to avoid are people claiming that internal hinges are "more secure." This is a myth. Hinges on a properly designed safe just keep the door from falling on your foot when it opens. They shouldn't affect security if cut off. I'm also leery of putting in those electric dehumidifiers just in case they have a problem and ignite everything inside your safe. I also wouldn't store my ammo in the safe as it could cause problems during a fire.

    In closing, gun safe companies put out a lot of hyperbole. The thing that matters most is whether the safe has lots of steel in the door and walls and whether they are using a poured insulating layer for fire protection and not drywall. Most gun safes do not have these features. The Graffunder and Amsec BF and higher series safes do.
     
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    What size safe are you looking for? With a budget like that there are several possibilities. You can get a large high security RSC like the AMSEC BF series or you can get a smaller TL rated safe like the RF series that has much higher security.

    Personally I would look at used safes. Look on Craigslist in your area as well as eBay. I've seen newer Diebold double door safes go for anywhere from $1000-3000. They are very large and will hold a massive collection. You also can't really get any better than a Diebold. Even if you gave $3000 for one you would still have plenty left over to have a professional safe moving company bring it into your house.
     
    OP,
    If you look up Graffunder and find the dealer from lake region of NE OK, he is the guy to deal with and works in your area a lot.
    I also suggest you ignore the poster who suggested you consort with criminals, etc. That post is way off base. There are thousands of safes that are known by few if any.
     
    Graffunder is top of the line. Their quality and protection is excellent.

    The Amsec BF series is absolutely the best value in any gun safe.

    I posted a very long reply on this subject here:

    http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...equipment/26665-best-gun-safe.html#post384528

    I am [edit:was] in the safe business so let me add a few things here.

    The best gun safe when price is no object are from Graffunder. I've seen a lot of gun safes and I don't think anything compares to them. They start at a insurance "B" rating (1/2" plate steel door and 1/4" walls) and go up to E Rate which is 1 1/2" plate steel door with 1" walls as well as custom options. They use a poured concrete-like fire liner giving even their 1/4" wall safes about 2" of thickness and a good burglary and fire resistance. Thicker safes offer even better protection:

    Graffunder Safe and Vault Doors from Sage Safe Co. | Residential and Commercial safes and storage vaults

    The best gun safe for people on a budget are the Amsec BF Series Safes. They have an honest 1/2" plate steel door and also have a poured light concrete fire liner and inner steel wall giving the safes also almost 2" of protection from fire and burglars. Their HS series safes are even heavier and feature a true UL listed burglary rating from a TL-15 to TL-30 (Tool resistant ratings):

    BF Series safes start at around the mid-1000s and go up from there:

    http://www.amsecusa.com/gun-safes-BF-main.htm

    The HS series are higher priced, but much heavier safes:

    http://www.amsecusa.com/gun-safes-HS-main.htm

    Amsec is a true safe company. What I mean by that is they make commercial safes for their primary business. The BF series Amsec safe is FAR more secure than even the best major brand gun safe you commonly see.

    The Graffunder can be had for the price of the high-end mainstream safes you see and completely blows them out of the water in terms of fit, finish and security. There is no comparison.

    Electronic locks vs. Mechanical. Honestly there isn't much difference in overall security for most applications. Burglars don't manipulate locks open. They tend to attack them with hand or power tools. I've never seen a safe professionally drilled open by a burglar to bypass the lock. It takes many thousands of dollars in specialized equipment, drill bits, bore scopes and knowledge to do this and the average meth tweaker just doesn't have these things.

    What they do have though are those power tools you left in your garage next to your safe and that big crow bar you left leaning up against the wall next to the sledgehammer. So worry more about how much steel your safe has on the door and walls and not whether they are going to bypass the lock. Make sure the safe you have in your home can withstand the power tools you also have there because they can, and often are, used to attack safes.

    With that said, my personal opinion are mechanical Group I type locks (manipulation resistant) are the most secure and also the least likely to break (no motors and solenoids to go bad). HOWEVER, they are not as fast to get into either. If you want a reliable electronic lock I'd lean towards the LaGard brand and would avoid the Sargent and Greenleaf electronic locks (although their mechanical locks are great). Other electronic lock brands fall between these two extremes for reliability. IMO. In short: Electronic locks = convenience. Mechanical locks = reliability. You have to pick one or the other. Mechanical locks can fail and cause a lockout, but this is far more common with electronic locks.

    Bolt down your safe. I don't really care how heavy it is unless it's something more than a couple thousand pounds. I've seen very large safes stolen. It happens all the time. If someone got the safe into your house, then it can be gotten out. One man with an appliance dolly can remove a typical gun safe if you think about it. So go to the hardware store and spend 10 bucks on some anchor bolts and tie that thing down to your foundation. Any safe, no matter how strong, is going to be opened if the crooks get it back to their own shop and have time to work on it.

    Safes are lightning rods for burglars and you can be sure that if they come across your safe when in your home it's going to draw more than casual attention. So that means you need it to be able to withstand protracted and perhaps brutal attacks for many minutes, or perhaps longer. The only way to make sure this can happen is for the safe to have lots of steel in it and perhaps some concrete of some type. The Graffunder and Amsec safes do this. Other safe brands you commonly see do not. Be sure to bolt these other safes down as that will increase their protection.

    You should also place your safe out of obvious view (for instance I wouldn't put it in a garage where someone could see it from the street). I also would tend to put it in a corner with perhaps the opening edge closer to the wall (so door opens away from the wall and not towards it). Why? Because by doing so you make it harder for someone to get pry tools to work on the opening edge with the wall in the way. It's much harder for them to get leverage as they will hit the wall when putting the biting edge of a crow bar on the opening side.

    Bolt Work: Honestly this is just a marketing gimmick. More bolts does not mean a safe is more secure necessarily. It may just mean it's more prone to failure as there are more linkages to go bad. I've worked on very large high security Jeweler's safes with just eight bolts (insured to hold $1,000,000+ in jewels). There is no way that these gun safes with 32+ bolts on them are more secure than those jeweler's safes. So don't worry about number of bolts. Worry about how much steel that thing has in the walls and door.

    Other things in a safe to avoid are people claiming that internal hinges are "more secure." This is a myth. Hinges on a properly designed safe just keep the door from falling on your foot when it opens. They shouldn't affect security if cut off. I'm also leery of putting in those electric dehumidifiers just in case they have a problem and ignite everything inside your safe. I also wouldn't store my ammo in the safe as it could cause problems during a fire.

    In closing, gun safe companies put out a lot of hyperbole. The thing that matters most is whether the safe has lots of steel in the door and walls and whether they are using a poured insulating layer for fire protection and not drywall. Most gun safes do not have these features. The Graffunder and Amsec BF and higher series safes do.
    http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...equipment/26665-best-gun-safe.html#post384528


    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!

    A BOLTED TO THE FLOOR, CONCEALED WITHIN THE HOME SAFE!!! You can leave on vacation for months at a time with peace of mind. Don't display your "pretty safe" for all to see. Don't brag, post on internet forums what is contained in your safe.

    Budget some money to hide the safe in your home. i.e. a false wall, etc.

    I'm a Diebold fan myself. But a commercial type(i.e. banks, atm machines), build better products than the fancy paint job, electonic lock models that seem popular.

    Because buying safes is such a popular topic the above post should be a "sticky" thread.
     
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    Whatever you buy and Wherever you buy it...
    pay cash, do not offer any kind of ID with purchase, only use your first name during transaction, pick it up yourself in an anonymous unmarked rented box truck with a lift gate and tie down rails inside. (Use steel pipe to move over flat level distances it's amazingly easy using this technique) after dark, back up rental truck to your garage so no neighbors don't know what your doing. Call 4 of your most trusted family and or friends to help on both ends. Done!
    Paranoid? no, cautious? yes.
     
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    Whatever you buy and Wherever you buy it...
    pay cash, do not offer any kind of ID with purchase, only use your first name during transaction, pick it up yourself in an anonymous unmarked rented box truck with a lift gate and tie down rails inside. (Use steel pipe to move over flat level distances it's amazingly easy using this technique) after dark, back up rental truck to your garage so no neighbors know what your doing. Call 4 of your most trusted family and or friends to help on both ends. Done!
    Paranoid? no, cautious? yes.

    You left out the part about killing and burying the people who helped you move it after you're done getting it into the house. :rolleyes:
     
    Whatever you buy and Wherever you buy it...
    pay cash, do not offer any kind of ID with purchase, only use your first name during transaction, pick it up yourself in an anonymous unmarked rented box truck with a lift gate and tie down rails inside. (Use steel pipe to move over flat level distances it's amazingly easy using this technique) after dark, back up rental truck to your garage so no neighbors know what your doing. Call 4 of your most trusted family and or friends to help on both ends. Done!
    Paranoid? no, cautious? yes.

    Most intelligent comment so far. I would only add, for reliable information on safes, find a good safecracker.
     
    Tag to find later. Also, any thought on the Amsec TF series?

    My thinking is the 3/16" plate door is too thin. So this safe I'd use for a smaller less valuable gun collection and perhaps upgrade later.

    The minimum I'd want is a solid 1/2" plate steel door. And by 1/2" solid plate steel I mean solid steel. Not the way a lot of safe companies do it by wrapping cheap sheet metal around drywall to make it look thicker.

    If you can swing it financially, the BF series offers much better fire and burglar protection. It is almost on par with the Graffunder B series safes but perhaps 1/3rd the cost. But in full disclosure I've not seen the TF series up close yet to offer a deeper opinion. I would suspect it is their entry level price point safe to compare to the Liberty, Browning, etc. market. The BF series is a significant step up in protection and construction.
     
    Bad info.

    In no way shape or form are Liberty or Browning in the same ball Park as AMSEC.

    AMSEC makes some non TL rated stuff, but liberty and browning are absolute junk for what they cost.

    EDIT: Post by XOR is 100% spot on. Listen to people who know what they are talking about, not some idiot salesman or tard on the internet claiming his Stack-on is all you need.
     
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    Bad info.

    In no way shape or form are Liberty or Browning in the same ball Park as AMSEC.

    AMSEC makes some non TL rated stuff, but liberty and browning are absolute junk for what they cost.

    I have a browning pinnacle that is very close to AMSEC's top of the line safe not to mention the interior of an AMSEC looks like it was made in a trailer park. Yes they are expensive but to say a pinnacle is not in the same ballpark is also spreading bad info.
     
    Bad info.

    In no way shape or form are Liberty or Browning in the same ball Park as AMSEC.

    AMSEC makes some non TL rated stuff, but liberty and browning are absolute junk for what they cost.

    I have a browning pinnacle that is very close to AMSEC's top of the line safe not to mention the interior of an AMSEC looks like it was made in a trailer park. Yes they are expensive but to say a pinnacle is not in the same ballpark is also spreading bad info.

    Your intel is bad. You wasted money on a pretty paint job and fancy interior. If showing your guns safe off to your buddies is your thing, then you have succeded.

    A $8,000 Browning safe with 1/4" Steel and no poured concrete/fire/tamper resistant mix should be a crime. The door is composite and not even solid. Browning Pro Series Pinnacle 65 Gun Safe :: Browning :: Gun Safes :: The Safe Place

    A $4700 AMSEC BF series has 1/2" Steel (3/8" on biggest model for Door) along with another Inch of poured concrete......ya know the stuff that protects from actual fires and attacks. American Security BF7250 Gun Safe :: American Security :: Gun Safes :: The Safe Place

    Or you could spend $5600 on a REAL safe that's rated TL30.... not some bullshit RSC American Security RF6528 Gun Safe :: American Security :: Gun Safes :: The Safe Place


    Browning doesn't even sniff the ass of a Top End AMSEC safe such as the American Security HS6743 Gun Safe :: American Security :: Gun Safes :: The Safe Place or American Security HS7943 Gun Safe :: American Security :: Gun Safes :: The Safe Place
     
    Interesting that your AMSEC BF with the poured concrete " ya know the stuff that protects from actual fires and attacks" has roughly half of the fire resistance as the browning. I am sure you own one of these AMSEC safes or you wouldn't be so colorful in your argument. Besides, AMSEC's are just too small. While they do have good ratings, these ratings are found in 20-30 CF safes and I don't feel the need to purchase 5 or 6 of them to hold one collection
     
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    Interesting that your AMSEC BF with the poured concrete " ya know the stuff that protects from actual fires and attacks" has roughly half of the fire resistance as the browning. I am sure you own one of these AMSEC safes or you wouldn't be so colorful in your argument. Besides, AMSEC's are just too small. While they do have good ratings, these ratings are found in 20-30 CF safes and I don't feel the need to purchase 5 or 6 of them to hold one collection


    Fire board does little besides releasing water vapor to help cool down the safe(realitive). Poured, the thicker the better, is the only way to create a real thermal barrier. Does it seal? The weakest part of the safe is the sides, which most RSC's including yours, could be cut through with a $50 angle grinder, and a couple blades in about 15 minutes. Most of those fire ratings are bullshit anyway. They make up the test parameters and its a farce. Most fires will destroy your weapons long before it gets to X* in X minutes. How do you think those $2-4K optics are going to hold up in in that heat? People also underestimate just how hot a house fire can get.

    And you would be assuming wrong. I dont own any AMSEC products, in fact, i have cheap $800 or so redhead safe that was a gift about 10 years ago. Probally made by the same shitty company that makes your browning.

    The difference is , I know its a piece of shit, and wouldn't stop any half ass attempt or survive a fire. That's why I have insurance. For what I pay in insurance, it would take 20 years to recoup the cost of a real $10K safe, and even then, nothing is immune.

    I just don't bullshit myself and If I was going to buy something over $3K, then you best damn believe its going to be a real safe and not some shitty RSC with pretty paint.
     
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    I'd have to agree on the poured walls. From what I've read the fire board insulation found in most safes disintegrates and falls to the bottom after the moisture has left during a fire rendering it useless.
     
    These posts always get everyone riled up.

    I'm currently in the research stage as well and it is amazing to see the amount of misinformation that is spread around about security and fire protection. Security is the biggest concern for most of us and in this respect small variations in steel wall thickness mean very little when up against a high speed cut off wheel or grinder. Only seconds of added time in reality. In the large high security safes the poured concrete layer is a definite advantage but do not confuse the DriLight fill in the AMSEC BF Series with the actual concrete fill used in their higher end safes. There is a big difference, the BF series provide great fire protection but the DriLight is of limited benefit to security.

    As far as fire protection, the concepts of fireboard/gypsum and the pored concrete are basically the same. As these materials heat up they convert heat to steam and this prevents a rapid rise in internal temperature. The concrete really isn't any better as a thermal barrier except for the way it is poured. By pouring the protection layer you eliminate joints and edges that become hot spots in a sheetrock style barrier. Not having these hot spot areas results in the heat being spread throughout the barrier and the barrier maintaining its integrity. The Sturdy Safes use of ceramic fill insulation is intriguing because I know these types of barriers work as UL Rated protection in other industries, particularly Oil and Gas, but they are completely unproven in use for safes. I have personally witnessed this type of barrier used to protect electrical wiring for a 2 hour UL fire rating on drill rigs where the testing requires temperatures to reach 2000*F in the first 5 mins. How these barriers would work in a safe is a little different though.

    From my stand point now, I'm leaning towards an AMSEC RF/HS or possibly CE/CF series with custom insert or a Graffunder. My wife really likes the Browns but I'm not sure about the extra expense.

    Also check out this post of ARFcom, VP of Engineering for AMSEC is heavily involved and provides a lot of good information.
    Questions for AMSEC TheSafeGuy - Page 1 - AR15.COM