New Surgeon Scalpel 6.5 CM Hornady factory 140 Amax blowing primers

[Rob01]

Rob, you're right. I'll call them early next week. That is awfully generous (and kind!) of you to offer some of your once-fired, but this isn't your problem to fix. I was just taken aback by their response. I would have thought they'd be more eager to make a loyal customer happy. There is no way I would have bought factory ammo if I would have known that I wouldn't be able to safely reload the fired brass. I would have bought virgin brass from Midway and loaded them up myself right from the start.

Seriously, I'm shooting FACTORY ammo out of a FACTORY gun! Unless I'm mistaken, Savage is one of the only companies to even OFFER a FACTORY rifle in Hornady's pride-and-joy caliber! And yet the rep doesn't even CONSIDER that it could have been the ammo - but instead basically throws Savage under the bus. Maybe I should call up Savage and let them know what Hornady is saying?

I mean, ammo consists of four different components: the bullet and case (both of which are made by Hornady in this case) and the primer and powder (both of which are manufactured by entities that AREN'T Hornady). What's more likely to be the offending party? The ammo, which might have been made with a funky lot of powder - sure Hornady tested that batch, but did they test them only in an air-conditioned building? Or was it Savage's barrel? I just happen to have the one Savage barrel whose bore is so undersized it causes crazy pressure spikes. And that barrel is Savage's top of the line - the 12LRP uses their finest target barrels screwed into their finest actions.

Sorry about the rant. The more I think about it, the more disappointed I get. I have been treated SO well by Redding, RCBS, Dillon, Rock River Arms, Giraud, Savage, and Ruger (just to name some of the gun companies I've had really positive customer service experiences with). I just expected a different response from Hornady. It would have been so easy to make a long-time customer happy...

Offer is there Dave if needed.

Savage, Ruger, DPMS, Browning and Thompson Center Icon all make Creedmoor rifles. Having a bad factory rifle does happen. Stuff slips through. I have seen custom guns come short throated. But definitely follow up with Hornady customer service. Give them another chance to make it right with you.

If you wanted you can send me a box of the lot you had problems with if you have them and I can send you a box to replace it and I could shoot your lot through my rifle and see what happens?

 

[KYS]

Copper Creek loads excellent ammo. Don't think anyone is debating that but the insinuation that the Hornady offering is sub par in either velocity variations or accuracy just isn't right. Getting custom ammo loaded is a nice option but Hornady Creedmoor ammo is very good. I spend $1000-1200 to fly to matches and I wouldn't use an ammunition that wouldn't make me competitive as I mentioned.

Small lot to lot variations are normal with any mass produced ammunition as it is with powders or bullets. Getting a same lot of ammunition and knowing what it is doing is the most important. I switch lots I chrono and then run new data if needed if the velocity is over 10fps different. It's not a big deal. Like I said I haven't had anymore than 30fps between all those lots and they were all very accurate.

Lawn if you wanted I could send you 10 cases.

Not going to debate it any further then this, as my overall opinion on Hornady is: They make good off the shelf ammo, but you aren't going to get anywhere near hand loads or custom rolled ammo. That's a fact. Every detail is covered when done by hand one round at a time. I never said Hornady was of poor quality. I use their ammo quite a bit, but when I have my choice I go with custom made.

You cannot dispute the variations in speed, 30 fps is a lot. It can be the difference in a hit or miss at certain ranges. Clearly they are not above it, every manufacturer can have the issue. Once again, I will say it very clearly.... Hornady is not bad ammo. It just is NOT custom loaded. It is sub par when compared to hand loads or custom rolled ammunition. How much you spend on airline travel has nothing to do with this debate... we are merely discussing the differences in ammo. Out of a huge order from Hornady.... we saw 15-30 fps deviations confirmed by a chrono and that was different boxes in the same case of ammo.

 

[Rob01]

30fps from lot to lot is not bad at all. Have you looked at other brands of factory ammo? I have seen upwards of 70-80fps spreads in the all hailed Federal GMM, which is supposed to be the best of the best. In a single lot for factory loaded ammo it's also not bad. When I handload I try and keep it at around 20 fps ES. A 30fps spread for a 140 AMAX at 1000 yards is about .2 mils or 7.2". That could be a miss depending on target size but that is also the extreme. I can't remember ever missing at distance because of the ammo. It's the wind that bites me.

How much I spend on going to matches might not be important to you but it is to me as I am not going to waste money to use sub par gear including my ammo. I work hard for my money and as I type I am on my 3rd 24 hour shift in a row at work. I am not going to waste money, as I am sure others here don't want to either, to use ammo that won't make you cmpetitive. Before being sponsored I handloaded to make it work and save money and just because I am sponsored doesn't mean I will use something that doesn't work. We have turned down would be sponsors because their gear didn't work. Having custom ammo loaded for you is nice but not always an option for everyone. Cost and money all factors into what I use and that is what I was trying to explain with telling how much I spend to go to matches. Hornady Creedmoor ammo is good. I have used it in many matches and my record stands on it's own. Is custom ammo going to have smaller spreads? Sure but it's also more expensive which could be prohibitive for some.

 

[JB02]

I'll reluctantly concede that 30 fps could be a hit or miss at certain ranges (little things do matter at a distance), but I think that shooter error and the environment are larger obstacles to overcome. Let's assume an average 6.5CM velocity of ~ 2750 fps. Our 30 fps ES is barely a mere 1% variation in speed. The 80 fps that [MENTION=70]Rob01[/MENTION] witnessed one time doesn't even bust 3% variation.

It is always good to eliminate as much variation from a process as possible, but this cannot be done without increasing cost. If you have the money, and your performance criteria is such that you are willing to pay for 0.36% variation (a 10 fps ES) then go for it. A box of Copper Creek is $35/box; Hornady is $25/box; over the life of a 4000 round barrel that cost difference adds up to $2000 for a 0.7% variation reduction.

In my opinion, you get to a point of diminishing return inside 1%. In fact, I think it would be interesting to run some good placebo effect type experiments with custom made vs. Hornady's match ammo because I suspect that other factors probably have a more significant effect on a shooters performance than ammo with a 30 fps ES. [MENTION=70]Rob01[/MENTION]'s groups look good enough for me to call it good and have money left over for more ammo and beer.

 

[Aimsmall55]

Shame on hornady. I'll dare them let this group at 800 yards be "acceptable". Must have been the damn ES. I SWEAR.....