New to LR, need advice on a bolt gun

M

mokrunka

Private
Minuteman
Sep 17, 2011
23
0
39
United States
#1
Hello All,

I'd like to get into long range shooting, and need some advice on a bolt gun. I've done some reading on the forums, and (since I won't be loading my own ammo in the foreseeable future) it seems that the .308 is the most "beginner friendly" in terms of availability of parts and quality ammunition. I don't want to buy a great gun that won't shoot well as a result of lower quality ammo.

That said, where would be a good start if I had a budget of, say $3,000 (including scope, rings, etc.) for a rifle? Is there a "custom" rifle that would fit the bill? Or is there an off-the-shelf gun that would perform well? Is it possible to get .5 MOA accuracy with this budget?

I would be shooting nothing past 1000 yards--likely in the 600-1000 range.

Thanks folks.
 
#3
Re: New to LR, need advice on a bolt gun

The .308 is a very friendly cartridge, and a great one to learn from.

A good rifle can be had within that budget, as mentioned already the 700 family of rifles would serve you well, as would one of the Savages either a 10 or 12. If you get a good scope to go ontop of whatever rifle you choose, you'll be set. I have and have used Mk4's and Nightforce's, both are excellent scopes, and I think your budget will allow, there are other options as well that may leave some of your budget open for other tools (Vortex,Bushnell,SS).

Good luck
 
#4
Re: New to LR, need advice on a bolt gun

The 700P comes with an HS Precision stock that honestly I'm not a huge fan of, same with the 5R. The route I went is buying a 700 SPS AAC-SD for about 700 bucks out the door, immediately took the Hogue stock off and replaced it with a stock I felt best fit my intended application, and threw some quality rings and glass on it.

If you want the rifle to lean more toward "custom" I'd start off with a less costly (but still just as accurate as the 700P) rifle such as the SPS Tactical, SPS AAC-SD, or SPS Varmint in .308 (all available under 700 dollars), discard/sell the Hogue stock, and choose how you would like to accessorize it from there.
 
#5
Re: New to LR, need advice on a bolt gun

With three grand I'd pick up an .308 700sps tactical, throw it in a manners, and top it off with a nightforce. She'll do you well for thousands of rounds.
 
#6
Re: New to LR, need advice on a bolt gun

Thanks for all of the helpful responses, guys. More questions:

I'm looking at remington's website, but I don't see the 700P with a Hogue or HS Precision stock. I did find the M700 Target Tactical, which has a Bell & Carlson stock--are those any good? I like the look of that rifle. Would a rifle like this be capable of .5 MOA accuracy?

Finally, lets say I bough the M700 Target Tactical (or any of the other ones you mentioned). What would be the best way to spend $500 or so (rough figures here based upon the cost of the rifle and NF scope) at a gunsmith? Would it be trigger work? Glass bedding (or maybe 700 Tactical is already bedded)? A new stock?

Thanks again everyone!
 
#7
Re: New to LR, need advice on a bolt gun

I have taken many new shooters out with my .308 Rem700 "milspec" 5R and put them on 1k. I took the factory trigger out and put a rifle basix in it.

I am a firm believer in the Horus Vision scopes. They may not have the best glass but they make it very easy for new shooters to learn with the "hold over" reticles. I think it makes elevation and wind correction easier since all you have to do is move to the appropriate line. I recommend the Raptor with the H25 reticle.

I know a .308 doesn’t have much recoil, but I also recommend a muzzle brake. This will help you stay on target so you can see your impacts.

As far as factory ammo the Remington match 168gr. seems to do well with .5 to .75 moa groups. The barrel has a 11.25 twist so I reload with 175gr. Nosler custom competition bullets. The best group I can get is .398" spread at 100yds.
 
#8
Re: New to LR, need advice on a bolt gun

Thanks for the info. I'm not new to shooting, and have experience using mil-dots for ranging and holdover, but I am going to take a look at the scope you mentioned for comparison.

Also, maybe I'm missing something, but I'm not sure what the R700 "5R" is... I don't see something like that on Remy's website--is it still made? Can you provide a link to where I can find one?
 
#9
Re: New to LR, need advice on a bolt gun

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mokrunka</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for all of the helpful responses, guys. More questions:

I'm looking at remington's website, but I don't see the 700P with a Hogue or HS Precision stock. I did find the M700 Target Tactical, which has a Bell & Carlson stock--are those any good? I like the look of that rifle. Would a rifle like this be capable of .5 MOA accuracy?

Finally, lets say I bough the M700 Target Tactical (or any of the other ones you mentioned). What would be the best way to spend $500 or so (rough figures here based upon the cost of the rifle and NF scope) at a gunsmith? Would it be trigger work? Glass bedding (or maybe 700 Tactical is already bedded)? A new stock?

Thanks again everyone! </div></div>

If you bought the Target Tactical a big part of the up-charge for the rifle is the fact that it comes with a Bell & Carlson stock from the factory. Bell & Carlson stocks have an aluminum bedding block built into the stock itself, and thus do not require glass bedding. The question of whether or not you should buy this rifle and then turn around and buy a new stock leads me to believe that you have done very little research on this subject. Not trying to be an ass, but these are very, very basic questions you are asking. I strongly suggest you utilize the search function of this website and browse a few manufacturer websites.
 
#10
Re: New to LR, need advice on a bolt gun

I told you I was new to long range shooting! Thanks for clearing that up for me. I'll go do some more research. Now I'm going to focus on that rifle and caliber, which will make it easier to nail things down.
 
#11
Re: New to LR, need advice on a bolt gun

Go on gunbroker.com Look up Remington 5 R 308. You will see several come up both new and used. I too am new to LR. Have done a lot of research and believe the 5R to be one of the best out of the box rifles Remey makes. I plan on buying one for next rifle to shoot LR. In the mean time I'm using my SPS Varmint in 223. I just put it in a B&C Medalist and for now it shoots better then me and the ammo is cheaper to learn on.
 
#12
Re: New to LR, need advice on a bolt gun

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mokrunka</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I told you I was new to long range shooting! Thanks for clearing that up for me. I'll go do some more research. Now I'm going to focus on that rifle and caliber, which will make it easier to nail things down. </div></div>

I was in your shoes not to long ago, It is hard to read and come up with a conclusion on what to buy. I to wanted to hear from some of the experts on what they bought the first time out and run off and buy. I can tell you that I purchased a Remington SPS varmit .308 with Leupold 4.5x14x40 scope. The combo set me back about 1,500.00 with rings and all. You have the ability to purchase a better stock. Look at HS and McMillian stocks. See if you can find one in the Equipment Exchange here. These are just some of the options. Hope this helps, from a fellow FNG.
 
#13
Re: New to LR, need advice on a bolt gun

Well those are some good ideas, but i can tell you if you are willing to spend up to $3000 buy once cry once and find yourself a used sako trg 22 and mount up either bushnell ffp 3-12,6-24 or leupold mark 4 4.5x14 w/tmr and you will be one happy camper. the only thing you will ever possibly do is upgrade optics if needed.

This package with a harris bipod would weigh around 13lbs, have great trigger, stock, dbm, and action.
 
#14
Re: New to LR, need advice on a bolt gun

You have gotten plenty of good advice already and this suggestion is just an alternative. I like the Mod 70 action and this obviously reflects that.

Go to the Commercial Sales board and TAC-CORD has FN A2 SPRs for $1500.00. These are in fully adjustable McMillan A4 stocks. In the Group Buy forum, George at Gap has an offer on the new Bushnell FFP scope with a reticle he designed with input from other highly qualified shooters. Another scope option would be the new SS 5-20 from SWFA. Some guys ordered several of the SSs and are selling on the optics sale board.

I only have experience with one SPR but this one only shoots 1/2 moa when I screw up. The rest of the time it is under that with 168gr FGMM or SW Ammo 175SMKs with Lapua brass.

Anyway, with Seekins rings and base you're right at 3K mark and you won't be missing anything because of your rig.
 
#15
Re: New to LR, need advice on a bolt gun

I would consider buying a used rifle in the classifieds section if I were you. I routinely see awesome rifles for very fair prices.

For a factory rifle though, the FN SPRs are excellent and well equipped with a quality stock and rail.

Also, don't discount a 223. Factory ammo is considerably cheaper and you'll be able to afford to shoot much more.
 
#17
Re: New to LR, need advice on a bolt gun

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mokrunka</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for all of the helpful responses, guys. More questions:

I'm looking at remington's website, but I don't see the 700P with a Hogue or HS Precision stock. I did find the M700 Target Tactical, which has a Bell & Carlson stock--are those any good? I like the look of that rifle. Would a rifle like this be capable of .5 MOA accuracy?</div></div>

I don't see any real utility in that triangle gimmick tube. Allot of 700 pattern rifles will pull .5 moa the question is under what conditions and at what consistancy. At a minimum get something you can adapt or has resale with the factory tube. A shortened VS or 700P isnt going to shoot any different than a SPS in same stock.
Like posted: Recommend eithering buying for the preferred factory stock or go SPS if you have plans for future upgrade.

FYI
Remmie "P"olice rifles are separated in URL:

http://www.remingtonle.com/rifles/rifles.htm
http://www.remington.com/product-families/firearms/centerfire-families/bolt-action-model-700.aspx
 
#18
Re: New to LR, need advice on a bolt gun

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: coldboremiracle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The .308 is a very friendly cartridge, and a great one to learn from.

A good rifle can be had within that budget, as mentioned already the 700 family of rifles would serve you well, as would one of the Savages either a 10 or 12. If you get a good scope to go ontop of whatever rifle you choose, you'll be set. I have and have used Mk4's and Nightforce's, both are excellent scopes, and I think your budget will allow, there are other options as well that may leave some of your budget open for other tools (Vortex,Bushnell,SS).

Good luck </div></div>

You're mentioning the Bushnell scopes was a good idea. I have a 6-24 Bushnell 3200 on my 7mmWSM right now that I could use on a TRG for a while until I want to upgrade to better optics. I really like the TRG. Some of the posts on here mention that the 300WM would not be worth the difference in performance from a 308, but opinions seem to be divided. It seems like the extra velocity from a 300WM bullet would be a bit better, and with a 13# rifle and a muzzle brake, recoil would not be a huge issue. Any thoughts?
 
#19
Re: New to LR, need advice on a bolt gun

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mokrunka</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: coldboremiracle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The .308 is a very friendly cartridge, and a great one to learn from.

A good rifle can be had within that budget, as mentioned already the 700 family of rifles would serve you well, as would one of the Savages either a 10 or 12. If you get a good scope to go ontop of whatever rifle you choose, you'll be set. I have and have used Mk4's and Nightforce's, both are excellent scopes, and I think your budget will allow, there are other options as well that may leave some of your budget open for other tools (Vortex,Bushnell,SS).

Good luck </div></div>

You're mentioning the Bushnell scopes was a good idea. I have a 6-24 Bushnell 3200 on my 7mmWSM right now that I could use on a TRG for a while until I want to upgrade to better optics. I really like the TRG. Some of the posts on here mention that the 300WM would not be worth the difference in performance from a 308, but opinions seem to be divided. It seems like the extra velocity from a 300WM bullet would be a bit better, and with a 13# rifle and a muzzle brake, recoil would not be a huge issue. Any thoughts? </div></div>

300WM is ballistically far superior to 308. You dont need it to reach 1000 yards, but past that - give it serious consideration. Also, if you are interesed in putting a serious hurting on game at ranges past 700 or so, the 300WM is a great choice. Expensive to shoot though, and hard on barrels.
 
#20
Re: New to LR, need advice on a bolt gun

I think if I had three grand to drop I'd get a SPS V or Tac, and a good high end optic and mount, then change the things that didn't suit me. My .308 SPS shoots under 1/2" at 100, with only an upgraded trigger, and a low end optic.
 
#21
Re: New to LR, need advice on a bolt gun

If you are looking for strictly long range and not extreme long range, a .308 will fit the bill nicely for a beginner. Get one with a 10 twist barrel. This way, you can stabilize pretty much every .308 diameter bullet (minus a few custom bullets). I would use a .308 shooting a 208 gr Amax. This is a killer combo.

If you are looking to shoot extreme long range eventually, I would go with the .300 Winchester Magnum. It is another common caliber that you can find lots of data about; .308 diameter bullets are also very easy to come by. I would suggest the 208 gr Amax for this rifle as well. I would suggest a 9 to 10 twist for the long, high BC bullets. If you get a rifle chambered in this cartridge you can shoot long range with the capability to shoot extreme long range when you want as it shoots FAR flatter than a .308. If you can't take the recoil, get a recoil pad. It isn't that bad in my opinion and my rifle weighs ten pounds. It isn't very expensive like people are saying. It is marginally more expensive to shoot and the ballistics are way better (208 Amax at 2550 FPS vs 208 Amax at 3000 FPS, you tell me the difference).

If you want to take the middle road, look at the trusty old .30-06. Many people overlook it and I consider it an excellent long range/ extreme long range cartridge with excellent terminal performance and a low cost to run. A .30-06 will push that 208 Amax at about 2800 FPS based upon my experience.

As for the actual rifle, I would suggest just buying a factory rifle and upgrading it as you get better. That is how I have done things and it seems to be working well for me. I recommend a Savage 10/110 or Remington 700 for availability of parts. By the way, you can expect .5 MOA accuracy from any bedded Savage or Remington with the right load. You don't need a custom rifle for that. My completely stock unbedded Savage shoots .4 inch groups. My entire setup cost me about $900. This includes scope, bipod, rings, base, and rifle.

Use the extra money you save buying a factory rifle and get in to reloading. That is the only true way to be as accurate as possible.

By the way, shooting at 1000 yards is easy, easier than people make it sound; I got bored of it quickly. You might too, keep that in mind.

Hope this helps,
-Fernandez
 
#22
Re: New to LR, need advice on a bolt gun

Thanks, Fernandez. I won't go so far as to say that shooting at 1000 yds is easy... Most of my "longer range" shooting has been at the local range between 300-500 yards. I have a Savage 10 right now in 7mmWSMm, and it is a tack driver--I paid about 900 for the rifle and scope (it has the 6-24x bushnell on it), but I'm looking to upgrade to allow me to stretch out a bit better to the 600-1000 yds. I have virtually no experience at that kind of range, so it will be some time before I consider myself good enough to worry about going beyond that. The other issue is that there are no ranges around here longer than 1000 yds, so it's not even something to be concerned with right now.

You mention the 208g AMAX for both the 308 and 300WM--are there any "factory" loads with this bullet that would be acceptable?

Thanks again.
 
#24
Re: New to LR, need advice on a bolt gun

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What am I missing here...?? Why can't you drive your 7WSM out to 1000 and more? </div></div>

You're not missing anything
smile.gif
. Part of it is that I just want a new toy... My Savage has about 1500 rnds thru it, and I'm starting to look for a replacement. I know, I know, I could take pieces and parts, and change this and that and maybe continue to use the action, but I'd like to try something new and less conventional than my usual typical hunting rifle.

The other issue is that there isn't much factory ammo loaded in 7wsm, and since I'm not reloading at the moment, I'd like the versatility of the 308 or 300WM.
 
#25
Re: New to LR, need advice on a bolt gun

Turbo, thanks for pointing out that the SPR comes with a quality rail. $115. saved.

mokrunka, the scopes I suggested are FFP. The principal advantage to FFP is you can range at any power, hold off for movers and make quick adjustments of POI by using the reticle. These things are of greatest benefit to competitors and if SFP will work for you, you will have more options at less dollars.

The question of caliber is another matter. The best factory ammo for a .300 is about 50% more expensive than that for a .308. The .308 will get you to a 1000 but the .300 will do it faster, therefore less wind correction, with more energy or further range. My meat guns for forty years have been .300WMs but I wouldn't want to tote a precision riefles weight around the mountains. I also would not want to put the number of rounds downrange with a light .300 that I do with a 13# .308.

So, if your not going to be shooting ULR with regularity, I'd stay with a .308. Not to mention the fact that a .308 will give you five times the barrel life.
 
#26
Re: New to LR, need advice on a bolt gun

For your needs a Savage 10 or Remy 700 in a quality stock with Leupy MK 4 4-14 scope will get you what you are looking for. Spend any extra funds on a reloading set up. Learning to shoot well at 600-1000 meters is more about you than it is the rifle/scope.

You need quality trigger time with an accurate/consistent load to learn how to dope the environmental conditions. Get a data book, use it, and learn from it.

Good luck on your search and have fun.

Jet
 
#27
Re: New to LR, need advice on a bolt gun

You could afford my first rig on that budget....
Remmy .308 5R factory
dropped in an AICS chassis
with an I0R scope....

2lwx6ck.jpg
 
#28
Re: New to LR, need advice on a bolt gun

Savage 10fcp McMillan, have the gunsmith bed it and throw a brake on. Nightforce NXS 5.5-22 on top.

Or, if you're looking at the 300, might as well look at the 338 lapua, federal makes a gold medal match round for this as well. Savage makes a 338 in the hs precision tactical stock that is worth a look, they also have it in the long range hunter, scrap the accustock and order a McMillan, manners, hell, an xlr would make for a sexy fit as well. Top this with a sightron SIII 6-24 mil/mil.
 
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