Rifle Scopes New to the sport and seeking help!

[cghorr01]

Good evening Gentlemen,
I'll preface this by saying, in short, that I am a total newb to the world of long range shooting. I've been shooting since I was 5 (33 now). Until this point I've never really done anything more than 100 yards (pretty good at that distance on irons or with a red dot and holographic sights!) My primary focus has always been handguns, lever actions and semi auto rifles. I have been reading, for hours now, and all I've managed to do is make my head swim from information I have no idea what to do with! I come to you guys humbly seeking some direction. What SHOULD I be reading? Where do I even start? I feel completely lost and overwhelmed from the ocean of information and my complete lack of knowledge. What I've managed to do thus far is acquire a Tikka T3X CTR Stainless 24" 6.5 Creedmoor rifle. When I began reading about scopes and such it feels as if I'm drowning in information that I don't even understand. I would welcome recommendations as far as optics go but what I'm truly searching for is where to start. Any direction would be greatly appreciated!

 

[HMRamateur]

A good place to start is reading through the threads in this rifle scopes forum. Lots to read, lots of bullshit to sift through, but you will see a common theme with the recommendations given. Take your time. If you don't have time, search for threads started by people who have a budget in mind, and try to find one that matches yours. One thing almost everyone will tell you, too, is stay away from Chinese made optics. Almost every manufacturer has a line up of scopes made in china. Steer clear of those, especially for a center fire. Your cheap vortex might come packed with features, and a great warranty, but you will need that warranty.

 

[cghorr01]

Thanks for the advice. I've been reading quite a bit over the last few days but I suppose what I'm looking for is foundational understanding. Long range shooting principles 101. Scopes 101. It bothers me greatly I do not understand and I feel like I'm trying to take in too much without having a solid foundation. I'm more motivated by having the right tool for any given job as opposed to a budget. If the right tool is expensive I can always save for it!

A good place to start is reading through the threads in this rifle scopes forum. Lots to read, lots of bullshit to sift through, but you will see a common theme with the recommendations given. Take your time. If you don't have time, search for threads started by people who have a budget in mind, and try to find one that matches yours. One thing almost everyone will tell you, too, is stay away from Chinese made optics. Almost every manufacturer has a line up of scopes made in china. Steer clear of those, especially for a center fire. Your cheap vortex might come packed with features, and a great warranty, but you will need that warranty.

 

[CWB4]

I am pretty new myself and as mentioned just reading lots of threads especially those related to fundamentals etc. It will take some time but as with anything new toss your hat in the ring and see where it takes you. I just bought my first bolt action and heading north next week to fire it and zero in the scope ..

 

[HMRamateur]

Thanks for the advice. I've been reading quite a bit over the last few days but I suppose what I'm looking for is foundational understanding. Long range shooting principles 101. Scopes 101. It bothers me greatly I do not understand and I feel like I'm trying to take in too much without having a solid foundation. I'm more motivated by having the right tool for any given job as opposed to a budget. If the right tool is expensive I can always save for it!

There are so many choices, with so many uses, and so many user preferences. Cheap scopes use cheaper internal parts. So many people question why buy expensive when the cheaper option does the same and looks the same. All they think about is glass and magnification. Glass is so good now with so many scopes its far from first on my list of priorities, and you can find decent priced scopes in the 6x magnification range now. Personally, I am not the biggest fan of Nightforxe NXS glass, but there is a reason for the price and reputation.

Get something that can handle the constant dialing, and the bumps and recoil that the rifle will take. Leupold, Bushnell, Vortex, Burris, Nightforce, Steiner, Sig, all make good mid, mid-high price range optics, and those are only the ones that come to mind without thinking too hard. There are probably 20 I could list that I would consider for another scope. I personally own 3 Bushnells, and I've still wouldn't count them out for my next scope. They are a good scope and can find good deals on them quite frequently. I also own steiner, leupold, and nightforce. Doesn't hurt to go with scope manufacturers that also have military contracts. Chances are they got those contracts for a reason.

 

[cghorr01]

No love for Nikon around here?
I do photography also and Nikon glass is legendary. I had assumed their scopes were also top notch. Glass and it's quality(ies) is something I'm very familiar with so cheap scopes weren't on my list. In my mind, with the extremely limited understanding I have currently, I've been looking at $1-3K offerings from Leupold, Nikon and Nightforce. Hadn't really considered Bushnell, I'll have to take a look. What I don't know is what I should be considering (the spec per say). I honestly do not know where this magical new endeavor will take me, but I doubt I'll be looking to reach beyond 500 yards. Even that may be a stretch. 300 is what I'd have regular access to.

There are so many choices, with so many uses, and so many user preferences. Cheap scopes use cheaper internal parts. So many people question why buy expensive when the cheaper option does the same and looks the same. All they think about is glass and magnification. Glass is so good now with so many scopes its far from first on my list of priorities, and you can find decent priced scopes in the 6x magnification range now. Personally, I am not the biggest fan of Nightforxe NXS glass, but there is a reason for the price and reputation.

Get something that can handle the constant dialing, and the bumps and recoil that the rifle will take. Leupold, Bushnell, Vortex, Burris, Nightforce, Steiner, Sig, all make good mid, mid-high price range optics, and those are only the ones that come to mind without thinking too hard. There are probably 20 I could list that I would consider for another scope. I personally own 3 Bushnells, and I've still wouldn't count them out for my next scope. They are a good scope and can find good deals on them quite frequently. I also own steiner, leupold, and nightforce. Doesn't hurt to go with scope manufacturers that also have military contracts. Chances are they got those contracts for a reason.

 

[CodeMonkey]

Check out Ilya's videos over on YouTube for a ton of good info on optics. He goes by "The Dark Lord of Optics" over there. A few hours watching his content and you will understand a lot more of the terminology and probably have a pretty good idea of what might work for you. He also has lots of good info on his OpticsThoughts.com site.

 

[Steel+Killer]

No love for Nikon around here?

Nikon from what I heard is getting out of the rifle scope business they had some pretty decent "hunting" scopes for the money, but they never really had a "long range" or "extended long range" type of scope that gained any traction.

Welcome this is a fun sport you can learn a lot here you do at times have to weed through a little BS but most guys have good intentions.

Here is your homework assignment ..........

MIL vs MOA.......https://www.snipershide.com/precision-rifle/stop-the-debate-mils-vs-moa-vs-iphy/

Second Focal Plane vs First Focal Plane.......https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threadloom/search

 

[ACW39]

I suggest that you segment your searching into categories like shooting technique, gun, glass, etc... make subcategories within those. Once you have created the topics of research you can go forth and read up.

If you’re main concern is optics right now then I ask how much experience with rifle scopes do you have and what all have you researched regarding optics. If you have little to no experience with rifle scopes then I suggest you look up scope basics and then use those areas to begin researching more in-depth topics.

A different approach could be to look at other posts and mirror the setup you see and place your focus more on techniques of shooting and how to use that new set up.

 

[hellishot]

If and when you are ready to purchase a scope. Try to get a mil/mil or moa/moa scope. What I mean by that is to use the same units of measurements for the turret and reticle.

Some scopes have mildot reticle but have moa turret and this creates an extra step where you have to do a conversion.

 

[Steel+Killer]

If and when you are ready to purchase a scope. Try to get a mil/mil or moa/moa scope. What I mean by that is to use the same units of measurements for the turret and reticle.

Some scopes have mildot reticle but have moa turret and this creates an extra step where you have to do a conversion.

You would have to search very hard to find a bastard of a scope like that new today, maybe on the used market. I don't know what manufacturer would be dumb enough to put a scope like that on the market today.

 

[cghorr01]

Thank you! Precisely what I was looking for. I'll check that out now.

Check out Ilya's videos over on YouTube for a ton of good info on optics. He goes by "The Dark Lord of Optics" over there. A few hours watching his content and you will understand a lot more of the terminology and probably have a pretty good idea of what might work for you. He also has lots of good info on his OpticsThoughts.com site.

 

[cghorr01]

Any insight on FFP vs SFP? My regular access is 100-300 yards. The MOA is what I'm leaning towards.

Nikon from what I heard is getting out of the rifle scope business they had some pretty decent "hunting" scopes for the money, but they never really had a "long range" or "extended long range" type of scope that gained any traction.

Welcome this is a fun sport you can learn a lot here you do at times have to weed through a little BS but most guys have good intentions.

Here is your homework assignment ..........

MIL vs MOA.......https://www.snipershide.com/precision-rifle/stop-the-debate-mils-vs-moa-vs-iphy/

Second Focal Plane vs First Focal Plane.......https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threadloom/search

 

[cghorr01]

Thank you. I'm not entirely sure why I didn't sit down and break it down into categories, normally I'm the analytical type, but it's exactly what I need to do. There is so much information that I can't possibly process all of it at once.

I suggest that you segment your searching into categories like shooting technique, gun, glass, etc... make subcategories within those. Once you have created the topics of research you can go forth and read up.

If you’re main concern is optics right now then I ask how much experience with rifle scopes do you have and what all have you researched regarding optics. If you have little to no experience with rifle scopes then I suggest you look up scope basics and then use those areas to begin researching more in-depth topics.

A different approach could be to look at other posts and mirror the setup you see and place your focus more on techniques of shooting and how to use that new set up.

 

[want2learn]

welcome
awesome questions
If you're committed to purchasing an optic in advance of more research...i'd advocate sticking to matched units of reference for the reticle and turrets....MIL/MIL or MOA/MOA so you can more easily do any requisite calculations and to facilitate communication. For some long range sports like bench rest, F Class etc. they tend to prefer MOA/MOA......for PRS most tend to prefer MIL/MIL format. I tried both and took to MIL/MIL quicker but they're really pretty similar once you get a hang of it....kind of like Microsoft PC vs Apple. The forum has a couple of awesome people that sell optics....they're very good people, offer great service and experience and will help you decide as well. They're also very often offering discounts and sales.

i seem to absorb information best in a one on one or classroom setting....i also love reading books as i can re-review sections.

As such, i'd strongly recommend taking an intro to long range rifle class....they'll go through not only the fundamentals of long range shooting but also introduce you to much of the equiptment. Prior to the class reading an intro book really helps....at least for how i learn.

Try not to go too cheap on optics....unless you have some old .22 you wouldn't mind switching the scope onto in the near future. A good midrange scope is usually fine to start with (or maybe forever...depending upon finances and usage). You want an optic that's reliable, good glass, precisely registered and backed by a good company. They do sometimes break or require warranty work i've found.

With respect to books, the individual that owns this forum just wrote a nice book: https://www.amazon.com/Precision-Ri...rds=long+range+shooting&qid=1595078743&sr=8-7

other books that i also enjoyed include:

Long Range Shooting Handbook: The Complete Beginner's Guide to Precision Rifle Shooting: Cleckner, Ryan M: 9781518654725: Amazon.com: Books

Long Range Shooting Handbook: The Complete Beginner's Guide to Precision Rifle Shooting [Cleckner, Ryan M] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Long Range Shooting Handbook: The Complete Beginner's Guide to Precision Rifle Shooting

www.amazon.com

https://www.amazon.com/Long-Range-P...ds=long+range+shooting&qid=1595078743&sr=8-11 (i read the previous edition and the only caveat unless that was changed is that the text focus a bit more on MOA instead of MIL, that might be different with this new edition)

Accuracy and Precision for Long Range Shooting: A Practical Guide for Riflemen: Bryan Litz, 1 TOMO: 9780615672557: Amazon.com: Books

Accuracy and Precision for Long Range Shooting: A Practical Guide for Riflemen [Bryan Litz, 1 TOMO] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Accuracy and Precision for Long Range Shooting: A Practical Guide for Riflemen

www.amazon.com

 

[Eoddave27]

It sounds like you already have an excellent rifle. I have the blued version of the same rifle I dropped in a chassis and it is my favorite centerfire rifle. Something to keep in mind when buying your first optic is you really don’t know what you want and will need to figure out what works for you. When I got into long range shooting I bought what I thought I wanted based on recommendations here and reviews. What I found out after I really started shooting and competing was I had bought a great scope but the reticle and some of the features just were not for me. Now you may get lucky and find something perfect the first time but I would guess that most guys here didn’t stick with their first scope. Luckily I was able to sell the scope with the rifle which incidentally wasn’t really for me either and I bought something that had all the features I wanted in the price range I could afford. We are truly living in the golden age for long range shooters right now. You can literally find a nice optic and rifle in almost any price range. For me the sweet spot for optics is the $1200-1800 price range. At that price point I can find optics that have everything I want and are great quality optics. If I just up to 2k+ scopes are better but the difference isn’t big enough for me to justify the price. If I had the expendable income to put S&B or TT’s on all my rifles I absolutely would but at this point in my life spending that kind of money on an optic just isn’t in the cards. Some of the optics in that price range I would recommend are the Athlon Cronus, Bushnell XRS, Vortex Razor, Tract Toric and the Burris XTR iii. I’m sure there are a bunch or other great optics at that price point these are simply the ones I have experience with. Also, don’t be afraid to buy used. With today’s warranty from a lot of the manufacturers listed it’s basically the same as buying new.

 

[cghorr01]

Thanks for the insight with the optics, that is helpful and exactly along the lines of what I think I need. I also do not plan to go cheap on the scope, I prefer buying the right tool for the right job, even if that means it's expensive. I have basically been looking in the 1-2k range and can't decide what magnification I should be considering at the distances I'll be shooting. Lots of information I'm trying to digest.

 

[cghorr01]

Thank you for the recommendations on the literature! I can learn in almost any manner but I enjoy reading so I will definitely check them out.

 

[Macman25]

Here are a couple of really good threads to help you with questions and organize your learning quest.

Getting started in Precision Rifle Shooting. (Guide) https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...ed-in-precision-rifle-shooting-guide.6284387/

And

A Syllabus: Learning Precision Rifle Shooting https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/a-syllabus-learning-precision-rifle-shooting.6997604/

 

[cghorr01]

Bingo! Thank you!

Here are a couple of really good threads to help you with questions and organize your learning quest.

Getting started in Precision Rifle Shooting. (Guide) https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...ed-in-precision-rifle-shooting-guide.6284387/

And

A Syllabus: Learning Precision Rifle Shooting https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/a-syllabus-learning-precision-rifle-shooting.6997604/

 

[Macman25]

The first one gives good info, especially for the newer shooters who are not sure about terminology.
I really like the second one for it's well thought out step by step learning approach. You could always save it as a file or print it out and use it as a check off sheet if you like to keep track of your progression.

 

[jbonnie]

I am almost entirely in your shoes and luckily followed much of the advice here. I have both Mr Galli’s and Mr Cleckner’s books and went with the approach of buying a set up that folks liked and in my budget (in my case an MPA 6.5 Creedmoor with an open box SB PM 5-25). The one thing I didn’t appreciate until I was several thousand into it was how difficult it was where I live to find places to shoot more than 200 yards. This led me down the path of a 22LR trainer set up like my centerfire. I am only one or at most two steps ahead of you on this 10,000 mile journey. Not that my opinion is worth anything at all but after lots of research I did end up with the Athlon Cronus for my 22LR scope (from CameralandNY).

 

[ACW39]

I am almost entirely in your shoes and luckily followed much of the advice here. I have both Mr Galli’s and Mr Cleckner’s books and went with the approach of buying a set up that folks liked and in my budget (in my case an MPA 6.5 Creedmoor with an open box SB PM 5-25). The one thing I didn’t appreciate until I was several thousand into it was how difficult it was where I live to find places to shoot more than 200 yards. This led me down the path of a 22LR trainer set up like my centerfire. I am only one or at most two steps ahead of you on this 10,000 mile journey. Not that my opinion is worth anything at all but after lots of research I did end up with the Athlon Cronus for my 22LR scope (from CameralandNY).

I think you made a great choice with the MPA. I’m biased as I love mine! Finding a range that meets your needs can be a challenge. I second the suggestion of using something like a .22 trainer as it will definitely help refine skills as trigger time is huge.

I know I’ve seen it echoed on the site, but dry fire practice is also helpful. There are tools like the DFAT systems that you can use to practice things that you need to work on or even do stage work for matches without have to make a day trip to go to the range. Nothing is as good as firing a gun but it’s better than nothing.

 

[cghorr01]

Rifle decision has been made, at least my first one. Tikka T3X CTR 24" stainless 6.5 Creedmoor, will be at my local shop Monday for me to pickup. My distance will be 100-300 yards, I have regular access to it and it is very close by for me. Again, at least in the beginning.

I am almost entirely in your shoes and luckily followed much of the advice here. I have both Mr Galli’s and Mr Cleckner’s books and went with the approach of buying a set up that folks liked and in my budget (in my case an MPA 6.5 Creedmoor with an open box SB PM 5-25). The one thing I didn’t appreciate until I was several thousand into it was how difficult it was where I live to find places to shoot more than 200 yards. This led me down the path of a 22LR trainer set up like my centerfire. I am only one or at most two steps ahead of you on this 10,000 mile journey. Not that my opinion is worth anything at all but after lots of research I did end up with the Athlon Cronus for my 22LR scope (from CameralandNY).

 

[Macman25]

And just like that the journey down the rabbit hole begins.

 

[cghorr01]

Yes indeed!

And just like that the journey down the rabbit hole begins.

 

[Jolliec]

Whatever optic you buy, make sure you do some research on scope mounts, rings, and the proper way to mount it, torque etc.

I have seen many folks (including me) over torque their rings and destroy their nice new scope.

 

[TRyanOC]

Time is on your side. Take some time learning everything you can before making expensive buying decisions. I made the mistake of jumping in too fast and ended up buying a rifle and scope that worked fine for a hunting rig, but not really a long range rig like I should've invested in in the first place. I recommend listening to everyday sniper podcasts and online training that lowlight offers. It will likely save you time and money in the long run.

 

[cghorr01]

Thanks for the insight. I'm definitely taking my time when it comes to learning and reading about optics and such. I believe the rifle I settled on will do well in my intended range and I'm sure it will only be the first of many!

Time is on your side. Take some time learning everything you can before making expensive buying decisions. I made the mistake of jumping in too fast and ended up buying a rifle and scope that worked fine for a hunting rig, but not really a long range rig like I should've invested in in the first place. I recommend listening to everyday sniper podcasts and online training that lowlight offers. It will likely save you time and money in the long run.

 

[simonp]

As another Newb to longer range shooting, appreciate all the info here!

 

[cghorr01]

Definitely!

As another Newb to longer range shooting, appreciate all the info here!

 

[Steel+Killer]

Any insight on FFP vs SFP? My regular access is 100-300 yards. The MOA is what I'm leaning towards.

For me personally SFP only makes sense if using a reticle with no built in ruler another words a + cross hair or duplex mostly a hunting type reticle. If going with any type of MIL or MOA reticle FFP is the only way to go that way your built in ruler your looking at is always correct no matter what magnification you have the scope zoomed to.

My thoughts on MOA vs MIL is three questions.......
1. Do you have plans or think you will ever compete in PRS type competitions? If yes go with MIL
2. Do you have plans or think you will ever compete in F-Class type competitions? If yes go with MOA
3. If you have no plans to ever compete then do have any shooting buddy's that will be spotting for you or you for them ask what they have and go with that.

Personally for me I went the MIL route because that is what most of the guys I shoot with use and I thought I might shoot in some PRS type matches.

 

[cghorr01]

No plans for competition, just recreational shooting. I keep a crazy schedule. No buddies that do long range so nobody using either system. My brother is going to be joining me in the endeavor though so we will both use the same system. I'm leaning towards MOA from what I've read so far.

For me personally SFP only makes sense if using a reticle with no built in ruler another words a + cross hair or duplex mostly a hunting type reticle. If going with any type of MIL or MOA reticle FFP is the only way to go that way your built in ruler your looking at is always correct no matter what magnification you have the scope zoomed to.

My thoughts on MOA vs MIL is three questions.......
1. Do you have plans or think you will ever compete in PRS type competitions? If yes go with MIL
2. Do you have plans or think you will ever compete in F-Class type competitions? If yes go with MOA
3. If you have no plans to ever compete then do have any shooting buddy's that will be spotting for you or you for them ask what they have and go with that.

Personally for me I went the MIL route because that is what most of the guys I shoot with use and I thought I might shoot in some PRS type matches.

 

[IrishWind]

Welcome to the club. I feel like an old fart with my pre-Freedom Group Remington 700VS in .308. Hell, my barrel isn't even threaded for a can. It shoots way better than me at 100. And places in NoVa to go past that are either behind DoD gates or a trip. But the few times I have gotten to 300 and further it was a lot of fun. But this is a great place to learn. My first 2 years was more lurking and reading. I know I am an amateur in long range shooting, but this is a great place to learn and ask dumb questions.

 

[cghorr01]

I have a LOT of dumb questions! My aunt has acreage close to me that I can get a shade over 300 out of safely, so thats my distance.

Welcome to the club. I feel like an old fart with my pre-Freedom Group Remington 700VS in .308. Hell, my barrel isn't even threaded for a can. It shoots way better than me at 100. And places in NoVa to go past that are either behind DoD gates or a trip. But the few times I have gotten to 300 and further it was a lot of fun. But this is a great place to learn. My first 2 years was more lurking and reading. I know I am an amateur in long range shooting, but this is a great place to learn and ask dumb questions.