New USMC Rifle Qual

[loveha]

About time they did this. Barricade shooting, no more sitting position and new more realistic sized targets with bad guy pictures. Oh, and each "Stage?" you need to pass or it's an Unq it sounds like. Score is still combined, but there is a pass or fail for each different yardage line or style it sounds like. Lots of good changes.

The new Marine Corps rifle qualification is here

Where you hit the target matters a lot more now.

www.marinecorpstimes.com

 

[Davo308]

Sounds good, hope they are getting plenty of range time.

 

[steve podleski]

3 days to qualify on a more demanding course versus the traditional 2 weeks?

Are the new breed of Marines faster learners

 

[Skunk]

Are the new breed of Marines faster learners

Yes; today's Crayons are more nutritious.

 

[Rlb40x]

3 days to qualify on a more demanding course versus the traditional 2 weeks?

Are the new breed of Marines faster learners

This.
im sure it’s very good training, but I can’t believe it will turn out better shooters than a full week of snapping in and a week shooting.
I know it’s easier to hit a pop up than it is to score well on paper targets.

 

[Mister Ridge]

3 days to qualify on a more demanding course versus the traditional 2 weeks?

Are the new breed of Marines faster learners

Makes me think of one of those "inside basic training" shows I caught part of awhile back. Female Marine "recruit" failed qual and told the camera it's no big deal. So much WTF.

 

[MCHOG]

Do not fear. The article says "Unless you’re a new officer candidate or recruit, in that case the traditional initial marksmanship training and two weeks of snapping in drills, shooting slick and in the century-old standing, kneeling, sitting and prone positions will still apply."

Y'all had me worried there for a minute.

 

[Aaros143]

I'm glad they are keeping the basic qual in boot. So much of that transferred over, and is a serious skill I see lacking when I teach army people.

 

[diablodawg]

Except no one really ever does grass week and firing week isn't full, it's just a really inefficient way to shoot ~300 rds. ARQ is not for training (in theory) but for evaluation. It is much harder than Tables 1/2. There will be significant pushback when 80% are no longer 'experts.'

This.
im sure it’s very good training, but I can’t believe it will turn out better shooters than a full week of snapping in and a week shooting.
I know it’s easier to hit a pop up than it is to score well on paper targets.

 

[clcustom1911]

Except no one really ever does grass week and firing week isn't full, it's just a really inefficient way to shoot ~300 rds. ARQ is not for training (in theory) but for evaluation. It is much harder than Tables 1/2. There will be significant pushback when 80% are no longer 'experts.'

Correct. A lot of "experts" I shot against were just breaking the line or barely in the black most of the time. With these new shooting drills, "just inside" or "breaking the line" isn't gonna count.

We'll see how the scoring is worked, etc.

 

[DukeGSP]

still think they should do it without the RCO FIRST..... god forbid that "amazing" optic fail in the field...

 

[pmclaine]

As long as boots still learn the basics of iron sights all is well......

Its a good program but its not one they will easily pass if they are doing rifle training like we did it in 1988 - one qual a year and than rifles were only for carrying or cleaning.

To be good practical shooters they are going to need to practice those drills.

They will have the new Trijicon 1-8X optics soon. Guys going to find out magnification is only a crutch for most shooting....it will hamper them to be too magnified for some of this stuff.

If they provide the budget for peeps to train at this they will be extremely good.

Sadly I think that budget funding is going to reparations though.

 

[clcustom1911]

As long as boots still learn the basics of iron sights all is well......

Its a good program but its not one they will easily pass if they are doing rifle training like we did it in 1988 - one qual a year and than rifles were only for carrying or cleaning.

To be good practical shooters they are going to need to practice those drills.

They will have the new Trijicon 1-8X optics soon. Guys going to find out magnification is only a crutch for most shooting....it will hamper them to be too magnified for some of this stuff.

If they provide the budget for peeps to train at this they will be extremely good.

Sadly I think that budget funding is going to reparations though.

I think this admin is gonna have us in another war soon enough with someone we need to regime change or make free or something. So, I don't think they gonna cut *that much* funding.


Gonna be dumb.

 

[pmclaine]

I think this admin is gonna have us in another war soon enough with someone we need to regime change or make free or something. So, I don't think they gonna cut *that much* funding.


Gonna be dumb.

I think the last war was fought to bleed off the best of the country and leave us with the docile soy boys......it certainly wasnt fought to win.

 

[Ranchhand]

I never thought qual was all that hard back in the late 90s. Aim for the center of the big white square. It didn't matter what the black was shaped like, it was always in the middle.
As long as you applied the basic marksmanship principles you were good to go.
Now if the black was just a silhouette it would have been tougher.

 

[clcustom1911]

I think the last war was fought to bleed off the best of the country and leave us with the docile soy boys......it certainly wasnt fought to win.

We haven't fought to win since WWII, my opinion.

 

[Steve_In_29]

From reading the article that course of fire is going to require MAJOR remodeling of pretty much every rifle range. While I was in I shot on the base range at 29 Palms and Camp Lejuene along with Wilcox range at Camp Pend. None of those allow for the 25 and 15 yard courses of fire in this new qualification.

 

[TACC]

I agree with the "snapping in" time.

Saved alot of officers that couldn't hit a bull in the ass at 200 yards.

 

[RGStory]

From reading the article that course of fire is going to require MAJOR remodeling of pretty much every rifle range. While I was in I shot on the base range at 29 Palms and Camp Lejuene along with Wilcox range at Camp Pend. None of those allow for the 25 and 15 yard courses of fire in this new qualification.

This looks like a natural progression of combining Table 1 and Table 2 together. As far as doing everything in 3 days, I don't see that as a big change either. The reserves have been doing that for decades. More than one qual has started at the 500 for prequal and worked towards the 200 then working 200 back to 500 for qual with all of Table 2 done after Table 1.

The rest regarding supported positions and using the gear issued to you is just stuff that people have been asking to change for years.

My only concern is that the Marine Corps table 1 course of fire focused heavily on the fundamentals of marksmanship. The concept was to build a base that all subsequent shooting styles could build upon. That idea that a basically trained Marine could pick up any weapon off the field and competently engage a target. This goes to the heart of the concept that every Marine is a rifleman.

The rest of this "realistic" training should build upon those fundamentals through subsequent training.

I might be a purist though and I recognize that limitation in my thinking. I had concerns when they moved away from using iron sights on Table 1. I know that the Corps needs to change with the times, but something about this continual move away from the focus on pure fundamentals bothers me. I just hope its not a bunch of the officers trying to simplify the complexities of training schedules by combining rifle qual and practical field training at the sacrifice of the fundamentals.

 

[MarinePMI]

As long as boots still learn the basics of iron sights all is well......

Its a good program but its not one they will easily pass if they are doing rifle training like we did it in 1988 - one qual a year and than rifles were only for carrying or cleaning.

To be good practical shooters they are going to need to practice those drills.

They will have the new Trijicon 1-8X optics soon. Guys going to find out magnification is only a crutch for most shooting....it will hamper them to be too magnified for some of this stuff.

If they provide the budget for peeps to train at this they will be extremely good.

Sadly I think that budget funding is going to reparations though.

The Corps is supporting additional training, in a round about way. There are now "tactical matches" held, that Marines can earn points towards Marksmanship medals. The Corps provide the ammo, and Bn Cmdrs support the Marines (via armory support on the weekend for drawing weapons, ammo dump run, etc.). It's slowly starting to catch on here at Camp Pendleton, and it's good to see Marines take the initiative and go shoot their TO weapons on the weekends.

 

[MarinePMI]

And here's some pictures from a few matches last year...

My friggin broken ass helping out...

 

[Steel head]

Eat 30 crayons in 45 seconds and run a mile?

 

[MarinePMI]

Eat 30 crayons in 45 seconds and run a mile?

LOL! exZackwee!

 

[oneshot86]

View attachment 7566629

And here's some pictures from a few matches last year...

View attachment 7566630

View attachment 7566631

My friggin broken ass helping out...

View attachment 7566632

thats super awesome.

on anouther note, damn, i never saw pendleton w that much grass. it says range 214, wheres that onafre area?

 

[MarinePMI]

Yeah, near SOI. And that photo was last year in the springtime (you can see the puddles on the firing point), so it was the rainy season and everything was green.

 

[oneshot86]

ha, i just saw the water in the puddles at your feet in the last photo

 

[pmclaine]

The Corps is supporting additional training, in a round about way. There are now "tactical matches" held, that Marines can earn points towards Marksmanship medals. The Corps provide the ammo, and Bn Cmdrs support the Marines (via armory support on the weekend for drawing weapons, ammo dump run, etc.). It's slowly starting to catch on here at Camp Pendleton, and it's good to see Marines take the initiative and go shoot their TO weapons on the weekends.

Reading about "the Old Corps" Marines used to get a monthly allotment of ammo and were expected to train with their rifles.

Be nice to see that come back.

everyone goes in wanting to shoot and play with rifles and than faced with the reality, at least at my time, it was discouraging.

 

[pmclaine]

This looks like a natural progression of combining Table 1 and Table 2 together. As far as doing everything in 3 days, I don't see that as a big change either. The reserves have been doing that for decades. More than one qual has started at the 500 for prequal and worked towards the 200 then working 200 back to 500 for qual with all of Table 2 done after Table 1.

The rest regarding supported positions and using the gear issued to you is just stuff that people have been asking to change for years.

My only concern is that the Marine Corps table 1 course of fire focused heavily on the fundamentals of marksmanship. The concept was to build a base that all subsequent shooting styles could build upon. That idea that a basically trained Marine could pick up any weapon off the field and competently engage a target. This goes to the heart of the concept that every Marine is a rifleman.

The rest of this "realistic" training should build upon those fundamentals through subsequent training.

I might be a purist though and I recognize that limitation in my thinking. I had concerns when they moved away from using iron sights on Table 1. I know that the Corps needs to change with the times, but something about this continual move away from the focus on pure fundamentals bothers me. I just hope its not a bunch of the officers trying to simplify the complexities of training schedules by combining rifle qual and practical field training at the sacrifice of the fundamentals.

They should read about Fox 2/7 at Tok Tong Pass....when they were running out of 30-06 for their Garands or losing weapons due to damage they scoured the field for dropped Chinese weapons.......that ability to shoot any weapon on the field is a valid one.

 

[MarinePMI]

Reading about "the Old Corps" Marines used to get a monthly allotment of ammo and were expected to train with their rifles.

Be nice to see that come back.

everyone goes in wanting to shoot and play with rifles and than faced with the reality, at least at my time, it was discouraging.

I think it really depended on your unit. I was active duty from 88-98, and in the early days we shot...a lot. I was with 24th MEU(SOC) most of my time in the FMF, so we trained a lot. FAMFIRE, 50 cal shoots, MG shoots..we were always out shooting or blowing up something. Then again, I was a radio operator, so we were needed for every live fire event due to range control comms requirements ("Black Burn" in LeJeune, and "Long Rifle" in Pendleton), so we got tagged to train on just about everything. It was the only good part of being a field radio operator; always something cool to go do if you didn't mind being in the field, or getting up early/coming back to the barracks late.

 

[Davo308]

Yeah, near SOI. And that photo was last year in the springtime (you can see the puddles on the firing point), so it was the rainy season and everything was green.

Are personal weapons allowed at these shoots?

 

[pmclaine]

I think it really depended on your unit. I was active duty from 88-98, and in the early days we shot...a lot. I was with 24th MEU(SOC) most of my time in the FMF, so we trained a lot. FAMFIRE, 50 cal shoots, MG shoots..we were always out shooting or blowing up something. Then again, I was a radio operator, so we were needed for every live fire event due to range control comms requirements ("Black Burn" in LeJeune, and "Long Rifle" in Pendleton), so we got tagged to train on just about everything. It was the only good part of being a field radio operator; always something cool to go do if you didn't mind being in the field, or getting up early/coming back to the barracks late.

I was 3/8 86 to 88.

I was also a Dragon so perhaps my shit differed from line guys but I dont think it made much difference.

We drew rifles at the armory often and all we did was scrub them.

We did some Dragon Launch Effects Training now and than but time would have been better spent learning to use map and compass.

 

[diablodawg]

From reading the article that course of fire is going to require MAJOR remodeling of pretty much every rifle range. While I was in I shot on the base range at 29 Palms and Camp Lejuene along with Wilcox range at Camp Pend. None of those allow for the 25 and 15 yard courses of fire in this new qualification.

They all can shoot at those ranges now. Or, have suitable short range bays nearby.

As long as boots still learn the basics of iron sights all is well......

Its a good program but its not one they will easily pass if they are doing rifle training like we did it in 1988 - one qual a year and than rifles were only for carrying or cleaning.

They do not learn irons at boot camp, only SOI.

Are personal weapons allowed at these shoots?

Yep! Personal or issue. Glad MarinePMI included this, it shows there is a huge hunger for improvement not supported at large by the Corps. Considering most Marines are terrible shots, we need to franchise this to every base. Just takes sweat and planning.

 

[winniedonkey]

Anyone have a picture of the new target or know the dimensions?

 

[RGStory]

Anyone have a picture of the new target or know the dimensions?

As reported by: https://www.military.com/daily-news...cation-feature-moving-targets-night-fire.html

 

[Mike Casselton]

I never thought qual was all that hard back in the late 90s. Aim for the center of the big white square. It didn't matter what the black was shaped like, it was always in the middle.
As long as you applied the basic marksmanship principles you were good to go.
Now if the black was just a silhouette it would have been tougher.

I used to set my sights for a 6 o'clock hold on the paper targets. Made qualifying expert a piece of cake.

 

[Steve_In_29]

They all can shoot at those ranges now. Or, have suitable short range bays nearby.

They can't shoot the 25 and 15 on the rifle ranges as the impact areas are way above their heads at those ranges. Moving several hundred shooters to another range for the shorter strings of fire and then back again to continue the course would be a real pain in the ass. Plus the shorter ranges (pistol?) don't have berms rated for rifle fire.

So they will have to redo the ranges.

 

[GrumpyOleFart]

Do they push the urban warfare, FISH, FIBUA, drills as well?
How often would Marines go to the range, or does that depend on your specific task requirements?
I used to laugh when recruits were informed that everyone regardless of preferred Corps, was considered "Infantry First"........
The joys of their first Battle Fitness Test.

 

[diablodawg]

They do it now for table 2, so no.

There is plans to redo many Qual ranges to use electronic targets and go away from obsolete hand pulled carriages.

And most pistol ranges are good to shoot most rifle DODICs as well, though certainly not all of them.

 

[Doc68]

I'm kinda jealous. My last 3 qualifications have been done on a 25yd paper range with a 4x acog

Expert everytime

Somehow people still cant qualify.

Doc