New Year, New Rules, maybe ...

[Lowlight]

As 2022 comes to a close, people should have started to look to 2023.

This is a golden opportunity to improve and correct some issues locally if you notice any or have had some negative feedback.

One area I see being discussed is Production Class or Factory Class and how to address these rifles. People want to open the door to enter and bring in new shooters, the problem is the PRS crowd that dictated a minimum entry price. Saying a Production rifle is one with a maximum price immediately closes the door to anything sold for less money. If they say, Production class is a $2500 rifle and $2500 scope, that means anyone with a practical streak will not show up unless their rifle meets these minimums.

If you want an entry class, consider a limited division with fewer rules. You want to look at what features a basic rifle provides vs what features a custom rifle does. You want the guys with the $800 Tikkas and $500 Arkens to show up right, so you want to speak to them.

I still believe wholeheartedly that factory ammo is the real deciding factor. My personal model of a limited division is any rifle under 19LBS with a max barrel length of 26" and factory ammo. That is really the most basic entry point. (I went 19LBS because some AIs are 18+ out of the box) and really, rifle weight should not include the scope if you are doing rifle weight unless you just say, as carried, which makes it easy to pop a complete rifle on a scale.

Overcomplicating rules is where things fall down. If you simplify them, you have less drama.

An open division with nothing but a weight limit (we should have a weight limit every other discipline does) and then Factory vs. Handload is your biggest offset of score next to the skill. Barrels have to be replaced, so if you say 26" is a factory max, you let people use the same rifle and continue down the same path.

Things to think about, the subcategories are easier too; you can have an open and limited and then, say, Lady and Junior inside those two, very straightforward.

A new year is a great time to make changes that can be looked at to help improve participation a bit.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

Production class is a paradox.

1. $2500 rule puts a lot of really quality rifles in the hands of shooters who are right on the budget line. Myself included. A $5000 rifle plus scope is just not in my reach, but saving, scrimping and selling some items made it possible to own a “really nice production” rifle.

2. The $2500 rule has ruined production class. Even real production rifles are moving up to the $2500.00 line (Example, the RPR).

3. If they really wanted “production“ rifles (read typical hunting rifles) they would limit weight to say ten or eleven pounds including scope (but not bipod). Forgetting a cost margin. Cost margins are Not Manageable due to inflation.

3a. If the organization implemented such a rule would anyone really show up? I saw every effort made in IHMSA to encourage real production firearms into the sport, (all the while old timers bemoaned the use of scopes and handguns that cost more than $500.00). All’s it did was create another class for International class shooters to participate in. Virtually NO new shooters

I see production rifles being rifles such as the RPR and the Savage 110 Precision and Axis. Rifles that were priced in the less than $1500.00 range that were really produced by factories and one could easily find in gun shops. But outside of Doug Koenig, who is sponsored and shoots a custom shop model that sells just below the $2500 line, who in the sport shoots them?

Questions - Problems - No Answers.

What I explained to IHMSA people, forget rules, establish a weight max and a box rule and let it go. They never listened and the rule book is getting bigger and bigger. (And participation is getting smaller and smaller)

So that is my answer, set a weight limit and a box rule. It has to be below a certain weight and it has to fit in a predetermined box.

 

[Lowlight]

The box rule is really a barrel rule to eliminate the 30" aftermarket barrels.

The chassis, scopes, etc. are not different; what is different is the barrel, which is the factor with a precision rifle.

Weight is stability, so a weight restriction is necessary, then after that, it's ammo.

A scope is not a deciding factor; if a guy buys an RPR and puts a TT on it, who cares.

Nobody wants to admit the next and most important factor is the ammo.
They would have gained a lot more favor with Ammo Companies if they had a factory ammo class, it would help lower cost and create higher quality ammo.

Today we have factory ammo with an SD of 30fps, before the same ammo had an SD of 12fps, if you had a factory division that required factory ammo, you have better ammo. It would be a selling point for Competition

But instead, some idiots came up with arbitrary numbers like $2500 factory gun, which didn't even really exist. You never put a value on the equipment as you just set the minimum price for entry,.

 

[W54/XM-388]

The box rule is really a barrel rule to eliminate the 30" aftermarket barrels.

The chassis, scopes, etc. are not different; what is different is the barrel, which is the factor with a precision rifle.

Weight is stability, so a weight restriction is necessary, then after that, it's ammo.

A scope is not a deciding factor; if a guy buys an RPR and puts a TT on it, who cares.

Nobody wants to admit the next and most important factor is the ammo.
They would have gained a lot more favor with Ammo Companies if they had a factory ammo class, it would help lower cost and create higher quality ammo.

Today we have factory ammo with an SD of 30fps, before the same ammo had an SD of 12fps, if you had a factory division that required factory ammo, you have better ammo. It would be a selling point for Competition

But instead, some idiots came up with arbitrary numbers like $2500 factory gun, which didn't even really exist. You never put a value on the equipment as you just set the minimum price for entry,.

So pretty much the simple rules would be:

Bring whatever you want, but if you want to be in the more easily competitive class, use factory ammo, have the rifle be less than 18 pounds and have the barrel be 26" or less.

Then if you want anything else such as heavier rifle, longer barrel, hand loaded ammo, you jump to open class and enjoy playing with any gear you wish.

Then possibly a separate scoring bracket for women or juniors, if such a thing looks to be needed.


Is that pretty much about the long and short of it?

 

[W54/XM-388]

Companies seem to react pretty quickly to what the market demands.
As soon as that $2k or $2500 rules for "production class" came out, lots of rifle makers all suddenly had $2k and then $2500 "PRS match rifles".

I'm guessing Ammo companies might respond quickly as well, with more dedicated match lines that have small ES in velocity and pay a lot of attention to weight sorting projectiles and uniform loading.

We might even see some innovative offerings from retailers or factory direct, offering packs of ammo to test what works best in your rifle, then let you buy a case of it.

 

[babyguppy]

While I'm out of my league here.

This is pretty clear and concise

"factory ammo, have the rifle be less than 18 pounds and have the barrel be 26" or less."​

One question - how can you guarantee that the shooter is using factory ammo; besides a pinky promise?

 

[Long Range 338]

The box rule is really a barrel rule to eliminate the 30" aftermarket barrels.

The chassis, scopes, etc. are not different; what is different is the barrel, which is the factor with a precision rifle.

Weight is stability, so a weight restriction is necessary, then after that, it's ammo.

A scope is not a deciding factor; if a guy buys an RPR and puts a TT on it, who cares.

Nobody wants to admit the next and most important factor is the ammo.
They would have gained a lot more favor with Ammo Companies if they had a factory ammo class, it would help lower cost and create higher quality ammo.

Today we have factory ammo with an SD of 30fps, before the same ammo had an SD of 12fps, if you had a factory division that required factory ammo, you have better ammo. It would be a selling point for Competition

But instead, some idiots came up with arbitrary numbers like $2500 factory gun, which didn't even really exist. You never put a value on the equipment as you just set the minimum price for entry,.

It feels like the $2500 limit for the rifle was only used as a basis for a payday to become “the official rifle of the PRS”. I assume the same would happen for the ammunition but it would seem to be more difficult to be capitalized on.

 

[spamassassin]

When I entered I just came to a match with my metallic silhouette rifle which was a pretty basic Savage 10FPSR with a fixed 16x. That got me started down gear queer avenue but not very far because cost was a factor and I had kids to raise. I was perfectly able to get a better scope for the game and be just fine. Later on the rifle configuration evolved alongside my skill level but lagging behind it a bit. As my skill exposed the limitations of my weapon system I fixed those specific issues one at a time. I don't think that bifurcating by classes of equipment is really going to help because a $15K setup isn't going to make a new shooter show up in the winner's circle and the issue at hand is one of keeping new entrants engaged and encouraging additional new entrants.

What might do better service is to class based on shooter achievement which is how it's done in a lot of other shooting sports. Master/AAA/AA/A/B classes in metallic silhouette separates the shooter based on historical score. Master could be 80% hits or higher, AAA 70%, AA 60%, A 50%, B <50%. Then gear queer or no, you'll be competing against people at your level. Then you split the prize tables up and make sure to have at least one of the high dollar prizes on each of the lower tables so you encourage people to raise themselves up in terms of skill.

You get all of the stated goal with none of the stupidity that results from making everything judged by dollars spent.

 

[Long Range 338]

is factory ammo that much better than handloads to make another class or restriction?
Could it possibly not matter whether factory or handloads?
I wouldn’t be surprised if my handloads are less accurate than good match ammo. I don’t think I’m good enough to really tell.

Seems that it would be more of an implementation of several items to really accomplish the objective. Weight limit, factory ammo, and target sizes could help keep newer shooters involved and not discouraged. The end goal is always about getting more people involved

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

When I entered I just came to a match with my metallic silhouette rifle which was a pretty basic Savage 10FPSR with a fixed 16x. That got me started down gear queer avenue but not very far because cost was a factor and I had kids to raise. I was perfectly able to get a better scope for the game and be just fine. Later on the rifle configuration evolved alongside my skill level but lagging behind it a bit. As my skill exposed the limitations of my weapon system I fixed those specific issues one at a time. I don't think that bifurcating by classes of equipment is really going to help because a $15K setup isn't going to make a new shooter show up in the winner's circle and the issue at hand is one of keeping new entrants engaged and encouraging additional new entrants.

What might do better service is to class based on shooter achievement which is how it's done in a lot of other shooting sports. Master/AAA/AA/A/B classes in metallic silhouette separates the shooter based on historical score. Master could be 80% hits or higher, AAA 70%, AA 60%, A 50%, B <50%. Then gear queer or no, you'll be competing against people at your level. Then you split the prize tables up and make sure to have at least one of the high dollar prizes on each of the lower tables so you encourage people to raise themselves up in terms of skill.

You get all of the stated goal with none of the stupidity that results from making everything judged by dollars spent.

Did that in IHMSA. Works good if you are honest or goal achiever (My proudest accomplishment is earning an International class rank). Problem is, as always, you have game players. Intentionally sandbagging so they can win medals / trophies in a lower class. Same thing in cycling. People intentionally never put in their request to move into a higher class because they like winning at all costs even though winning at their skill level and talent makes winning meaningless.

Me, I now do only Senior Olympic cycling and we go by age. I also only do Time Trials. Working to achieve personal good times. If I win the class, great, if I lose, and If I did my best, that’s great too. Not to be bragging. Sports are sports, We go for the win, but a meaningless win is really loosing.

 

[TxWelder35]

To me production class is something you can buy at a big box store with factory loaded ammo. These seems like a pretty good way to draw the line without a bunch of random specifications that are easy enough to game. Can it be bought at cabelas, scheels, etc?

I would be excluding AI from production class.

AI and a factory savage, tikka, ruger, etc are not on the same playing field.

 

[spamassassin]

Did that in IHMSA. Works good if you are honest or goal achiever (My proudest accomplishment is earning an International class rank). Problem is, as always, you have game players. Intentionally sandbagging so they can win medals / trophies in a lower class. Same thing in cycling. People intentionally never put in their request to move into a higher class because they like winning at all costs even though winning at their skill level and talent makes winning meaningless.

Me, I now do only Senior Olympic cycling and we go by age. I also only do Time Trials. Working to achieve personal good times. If I win the class, great, if I lose, and If I did my best, that’s great too. Not to be bragging. Sports are sports, We go for the win, but a meaningless win is really loosing.

Sandbagging is easy enough to discourage, you label it cheating and let the RO's and MD's take care of it. If they feel you belong in a higher level class then they can put you in the 1 level higher of a class than you've so far qualified for. You could also use the prize table to discourage it or you could set rules about in-stage percentages... there's lots of ways to discourage dickheads from ruining it for the rest of us. Returning discretion to the MD's and RO's should clean up people's acts.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

Sandbagging is easy enough to discourage, you label it cheating and let the RO's and MD's take care of it. If they feel you belong in a higher level class then they can put you in the 1 level higher of a class than you've so far qualified for. You could also use the prize table to discourage it or you could set rules about in-stage percentages... there's lots of ways to discourage dickheads from ruining it for the rest of us. Returning discretion to the MD's and RO's should clean up people's acts.

How do you prove that a misses were intentional or simply a misses? You can’t. (Or at least you shouldn’t try). Trying to say a competitor missed on purpose, is jsut using a red flag type law where, you are making an assumption. (That the shooter missed on purpose.

The only way to define it is the number of wins In a given period of time. What’s wrong with that? If the shooter has truly reached his/her maximum skill level, moving them up, just puts them at the bottom of the next class. Competitors consistent loosing is a really good way to cut participation.

Lord knows we all have bad days. But consistent bad days is what shooters who have reached their best level really have. They don’t get better. A sandbagger, if he is as good as he should be would have no issues missing randomly.

 

[Lowlight]

The shooters are rewarded after the fact, and honestly the series outside of regional are stupid. (beyond giving a metric to qualify for a finale)

You have two divisions, Open and Limited, you can have sub-categories like LE, Lady, and Junior, and then on finish, you can have divisions for prizes, A, B, C tables, and break it down that way.

The less you say, the more open things are, so you don't want to layer on rules, you want to use high-level things like barrel length, not type, or contour, just length, and stuff like weight, to me the scope is a meaningless thing to regulate.

Factory vs Handload is absolutely a contributing factor, it's probably one of the biggest if you break it down. Only a Meatball match would be immune from tighter shooting ammo. One or two 1 MOA targets on COF and things will separate fast.

 

[_Windrider_]

I like it. The only rules should be safety. Other than that any stage or course of fire should present problems for shooters to solve on their own. I’d only add you can only use what you carry. No going back to the car between stages and grabbing a Different bag for the next stage.

Maybe the exception would be some stages you can’t use certain equipment so you get out of your comfort zone and not use a tripod every time for example.

And yes including scopes is dumb, I agree. It really is barrel ammo and weight.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

Open, and Limited. Works great. Simple is always better.

 

[Lowlight]

In my mind, it gives the clearest path to growth.

You are not micromanaging the field; you are giving people the opportunity to grow while opening the door for more competitors. If you can pull a Tikka T3X off a shelf with a box of Hornady or Berger Ammo, go to a match shoot, and know you are not competing directly against a custom GAP with handloads, minds will calm, eyes will open, and growth will accelerate,

The path to creating old-school tips and trips with factory guns will return to form, if you want to fine-tune limited a tick you can add a trigger weight to the limited mix say 12oz or 16oz. The factory ammo limits the caliber race, but at the same time, a man with means can shoot limited with a 6GT. Trigger weight at check in is fast and easy if necessary or just check podium finishers at the end like a NASCAR Post race inspection

It's easier for MDs too, you have two things to manage and one not at all really. It will just depend on how deep you want to go, if you just say, Open Div is the only one with a Top Lady, etc, so be it, if you have a bigger field you can say, Limited can have sub-categories, it's up to you. Then break the tables down into A, B, C, Top 85% in A, 50% to 84% is B and below 50% is C for any prizes

It's simple, a no-brainer to enforce, if you wanted to test it, it's just weight and barrel length, then a factory ammo check if needed, but that would be a Walleye scandal for a guy to slip in Handloads. It would start moving things towards a real sport where you actually looked at the podium finishers as part of the process

There is no sandbagging if a guy wants to shoot Limited, he is welcome, just means factory ammo, really. Anything someone can sandbag to gain entry is a bad idea from the beginning. It should not matter if the winner of the 2021 Open Div wants to shoot Limited, he is still held to the same rules. His equipment would have to change accordingly

 

[LV Precision]

Nothing stopping outlaw matches from using these rules. We'll see if a single match in the country adopts it...

 

[Mechdesigner]

At a 1.50 to 2.00 a round for factory match ammo, the limited class would be dominated by sponsored shooters with means of shooting a lot of factory ammo. But maybe the increased demand might bring down cost which would be a great thing for the sport…curious to see how that would play out. I competed in France with factory 308 FGMM and I don’t think it really held me back much at all.

 

[W54/XM-388]

At a 1.50 to 2.00 a round for factory match ammo, the limited class would be dominated by sponsored shooters with means of shooting a lot of factory ammo. But maybe the increased demand might bring down cost which would be a great thing for the sport…curious to see how that would play out. I competed in France with factory 308 FGMM and I don’t think it really held me back much at all.

Most folks going to the gamer type events love large round counts, so that's what they get.

If ammo costs started being a big concern, it would be very easy to change the format to have low round counts that put a high premium on accuracy and making each shot count.

 

[Mechdesigner]

Most folks going to the gamer type events love large round counts, so that's what they get.

If ammo costs started being a big concern, it would be very easy to change the format to have low round counts that put a high premium on accuracy and making each shot count.

There is always a high premium on accuracy in Precision rifle comps as every shot counts. “Gamer event” and “thats what they get” sounds like you don’t have a dog in this fight anyhow… Let the people who participate have an opinion on the matter.

 

[W54/XM-388]

There is always a high premium on accuracy in Precision rifle comps as every shot counts. “Gamer event” and “thats what they get” sounds like you don’t have a dog in this fight anyhow… Let the people who participate have an opinion on the matter.

Is your all day match 20 rounds total?
Because that puts a pretty high premium on making every shot count.

 

[LV Precision]

Is your all day match 20 rounds total?
Because that puts a pretty high premium on making every shot count.

Spending all day to only shoot 20 rounds at a match? Sounds super boring. Some of us actually like to shoot guns.

 

[Lowlight]

There is no incentive to change anything.

People have no clue what they are missing and feel they see enough people at their chosen match so it's fine.
They don't realize the growth is much slower and smaller than other shooting sports, beyond the ones dying like Palma.

It's about improving the experience, and most are lazy and feel it's good enough so why change anything

We changed things every year, they may have been minor changes, but we changed things all the time. Nothing changes anymore, and if they do, it's for the worst. Less movement, fewer targets, more memorization, and less movement.

Nobody but the Series really look at growth because anything close to 100 is good enough.

 

[Mordamer]

I would love to see Production class with a $1000 limit on rifle MSRP and a $1000 limit on scope MSRP. You could change only those 2 rules and make production class interesting.

 

[Lowlight]

Stop,

You cannot put a NUMBER on a class; that becomes the rule for entry.

You dont' need a value and there is absolutely no need to include a SCOPE cost or value

YOU ARE THE PROBLEM

 

[Mechdesigner]

The IPRF world championship did not put a value on Factory class, they made it to where the action, trigger, chassis, and barrel is either made by or proprietary to one mainstream company and no added weights or rails that did not come with the rifle were allowed (their reasoning is they want manufacturers to make turn key race rifles). Their limited class was 308 or 223 with factory ammo provided by the organization ( this is sort of what frank was getting at but without caliber restrictions and adding barrel length and weight restrictions) my rifle i competed in limited with was a 26” barrel, 19 lbs and 1 lbs 2 ounce trigger with factory gold medal match 175gr 308. They were supposed to provide ammo but it fell through so they opened it up to run what you brung and I did not want to load last minute. I think a true limited class would be awesome, I enjoyed running that rifle even if i was a bit disadvantaged overall.

 

[LV Precision]

I would love to see Production class with a $1000 limit on rifle MSRP and a $1000 limit on scope MSRP. You could change only those 2 rules and make production class interesting.

THIS IS ABSOLUTELY NOT A PROBLEM. GOOD IDEA MAN!

 

[Lowlight]

Why would you put a dollar limit on something?

You guys must not realize how many people with an $800 rifle, $500 scope and some factory ammo read this stuff and stay away because the limit shows $2500, so they say, that is more gun than I can afford and won't attend

Putting a dollar figure on a piece of gear is epic stupidity

 

[Lowlight]

This is the answer, and yes, this is what I am getting at with my suggestions.

Where you say, A, B, C, but do not use a $ figure.

You can say 26" barrel, that is factory, no trigger under X weight, and factory supplied action and not give people a value.


You are gonna change barrels at some point, triggers are adjustable for a reason, and weight is stability so you can "LIMIT" a class without designating a dollar amount

 

[Mordamer]

Why would you put a dollar limit on something?

You guys must not realize how many people with an $800 rifle, $500 scope and some factory ammo read this stuff and stay away because the limit shows $2500, so they say, that is more gun than I can afford and won't attend

Putting a dollar figure on a piece of gear is epic stupidity

No it isn't.

 

[Lowlight]

Expand then, what dollar figure on what piece of gear works ?

 

[Lightning8]

I just finished a 2 day PRS match. 100+ competitors. Pros to newbies. Heard no complaints. Match sold out. Everyone seemed happy. Saw reloaded ammo and factory ammo. Honestly, saw zero interest in any form of "Production" rifle - had two factory shooters there with their respective factory "Production" rifles. Saw a firing line dominated with expensive barreled actions in expensive chassis/stocks with expensive scopes - if there is a market for less expensive rifle/scope systems - suggest starting a different league. Seems like NRL is charting a new course with their new format but suspect they are expensive in their own way. Maybe there should be a third "league" for the format suggested in this thread.

 

[Mordamer]

If you don't have a price limit then guys will show up with their cheap rig and find out that there are people competing with them that have a $5000+ setups that fit all your special rules. They'll get the same bad taste in their mouth and not come back.

I like limiting cost with an exact dollar figure. It gives companies incentive to make the best product possible for that price.

 

[Lowlight]

See, just like I noted,

Exactly what I said, had 100 people everything was fine

 

[drglock]

It’s been a long time since I’ve been around USPSA but when they came out with production class there was no dollar amount. Just a factory produced pistol and for a company to get an approved pistol there had to be so many produced. Could do the same here, factory produced rifle and just add a weight limit and barrel length and add in factory ammo only.

 

[Lowlight]

A man showed up to an NRL Hunter with Iron Sights and hit targets went home happy

have you talked to people who won't shoot one of these because they feel out gunned ?

how may shooters are left behind because they feel the cost is beyond their reach when in fact they show up, unprepared, find out the field is not so uneven and people will assist so they start to invest

You don't want them to even show up; super smart

 

[Lowlight]

PRS numbers are flat and dying, the stats are public, and someone is even nice enough to collate the data into easy-to-read spreadsheets, look it up.

The matches out west are far more fun and growing because it's difficult and more practical, wind actually matters.
I received a Text this morning from an East Coast PRS-style shooter who shot his first Competition Dynamics Steel Safari, and he said, the skills from PRS did not translate like he thought they would,

Sure PRS people back east don't complain; they learned the answer is fuck off; nothing changes in PRS, they have been conditioned to accept mediocrity as the only choice in town.

see the difference here, I was here in the beginning, early, the early 2000s, and managed this thing until the PRS showed up, watched them fumble, and fumble, and fumble for how many years now? Their success is by accident.

People want a change, it's clear, only the uneducated, first-time users think it's working.

 

[drglock]

A man showed up to an NRL Hunter with Iron Sights and hit targets went home happy

have you talked to people who won't shoot one of these because they feel out gunned ?

how may shooters are left behind because they feel the cost is beyond their reach when in fact they show up, unprepared, find out the field is not so uneven and people will assist so they start to invest

You don't want them to even show up; super smart

This right here, this is more important than classes. New shooter shows up go out of your way to help them out. They may shoot like shit but make it not only an enjoyable day but a learning day. I’ll loan bags, mags and anything I have at a match to help someone out and give them any advice I can.

 

[Mordamer]

A man showed up to an NRL Hunter with Iron Sights and hit targets went home happy

have you talked to people who won't shoot one of these because they feel out gunned ?

how may shooters are left behind because they feel the cost is beyond their reach when in fact they show up, unprepared, find out the field is not so uneven and people will assist so they start to invest

You don't want them to even show up; super smart

Yes. There are people who want to compete with an entry level rifle and scope and there is no division that fits that right now. If a person has a competitive personality, but a limited pocket book then they just won't participate.

Entry level equipment is something like a Ruger American, Tikka T3x, Bergara HMR topped with a Vortex Venom, Bushnell Forge, Burris XTR II, etc... I think there needs to be a class for this entry level equipment. It seems like the only way to do that is limit price.

I'd love to see how good someone could do with a Ruger American and a Vortex Strike Eagle scope vs open class.

 

[Lowlight]

Lastly and i am sure I will get the same old replies,

One thing some of you fail to realize, I teach classes to 100s of students a year, across the country, we go from California to Alaska to Pennsylvania to Ohio this year with stops in Iowa, Nebraka, and we see students from everywhere.

Many of these shooters are also competitors while an equal number are not. We get to talk to people in a different context and ask them about this stuff.

We do meet and greets with our students and eat with them every night, (How many K&M students had dinner with Shannon every night ? ) So we talk about this stuff with people. We have just as many liked minded people as well as those who don't necessarily agree because they love their local matches. But the difference is their differences, we travel and not all places are equal and not all experiences are the same.

I absolutely know people love their experience, as well as people who get quickly bored with the fact very little changes.

 

[Lowlight]

No, it's not about the money it's about wording, nothing else.

Open is open, you can limit things without putting a dollar value on them and even the field without stupid values and rules

There are tons of $500 Savage rifles out there. The difference is education, every SHC Match in the past, pre PRS had a cheap training component to educate and guide new people towards competition.

Where is that today, where is the assist? The Gap Grind has just become a money-making machine and nothing about it is designed to actually help anyone when you have to speed people through to get 350 people done in a weekend. It grew beyond its intent because the money is too good to pass up.

Every one of those low-budget rifles we see in Class, not a single person leaves our class feeling short-changed. You could do the same thing with a new shooter.

Have a budget, new shooter squad and give them a mentor... simple enough, but no that would require pre-thought and effort and the last thing any of these people want it extra effort.

It's why PRS Match Directors call me when and where nobody is looking so I can help and offer real advice they dont' get from their own series.

 

[LV Precision]

PRS numbers are flat and dying, the stats are public, and someone is even nice enough to collate the data into easy-to-read spreadsheets, look it up.

The matches out west are far more fun and growing because it's difficult and more practical, wind actually matters.
I received a Text this morning from an East Coast PRS-style shooter who shot his first Competition Dynamics Steel Safari, and he said, the skills from PRS did not translate like he thought they would,

View attachment 7978505

Sure PRS people back east don't complain; they learned the answer is fuck off; nothing changes in PRS, they have been conditioned to accept mediocrity as the only choice in town.

see the difference here, I was here in the beginning, early, the early 2000s, and managed this thing until the PRS showed up, watched them fumble, and fumble, and fumble for how many years now? Their success is by accident.

People want a change, it's clear, only the uneducated, first-time users think it's working.

Winner of Team Safari is a PRS shooter.

 

[Lowlight]

Oh you got me

Most winners shoot everything

That is like calling Way a PRS shooter because he shot them

 

[Lowlight]

Actually I have no idea why I waste my time

 

[Baron23]

with factory ammo provided by the organization

Diff sport...trap...at the Grand American EVERYBODY shoots the same factory ammo. No exceptions. You buy it there from the ATA ammo shed. Oh, I'm sure that there is a $$ consideration to the ATA cause there is always the $$ factor in all sports sanctioning orgs. But also, nobody can shoot their hand-loaded mortar round of a shot shell versus they guy who just buys shells at Walmart.

I should think that factory ammo vice hand loads is an even more critical aspect to rifle comps for performance as well as money for high end reloading equipment and the time involved. Factory ammo levels the field a bit, yeah?

The difference is education, every SHC Match in the past, pre PRS had a cheap training component to educate and guide new people towards competition.

This is outstanding. A good friend of mine who is a multi-time world skeet champ, and just retired from active competition, still just spent 10 days at the World shoot in San Antonio giving free clinics every morning to new and lower classification shooters.

I have other reasons limiting me from PRS type competition (age and some physical stuff), but also I wouldn't know where to begin. People need a low stress way to be introduced to a sport...any sport really...and I think you are spot on with this, Frank, and its very admirable that you did this. New people are the life blood of any sport and they need a way in.

Ok, I'll go away with my stupid shotgun analogies and uninformed comments. haha

 

[Lowlight]

exactly a few get it

 

[LV Precision]

Diff sport...trap...at the Grand American EVERYBODY shoots the same factory ammo. No exceptions. You buy it there from the ATA ammo shed. Oh, I'm sure that there is a $$ consideration to the ATA cause there is always the $$ factor in all sports sanctioning orgs. But also, nobody can shoot their hand-loaded mortar round of a shot shell versus they guy who just buys shells at Walmart.

I should think that factory ammo vice hand loads is an even more critical aspect to rifle comps for performance as well as money for high end reloading equipment and the time involved. Factory ammo levels the field a bit, yeah?


This is outstanding. A good friend of mine who is a multi-time world skeet champ, and just retired from active competition, still just spent 10 days at the World shoot in San Antonio giving free clinics every morning to new and lower classification shooters.

I have other reasons limiting me from PRS type competition (age and some physical stuff), but also I wouldn't know where to begin. People need a low stress way to be introduced to a sport...any sport really...and I think you are spot on with this, Frank, and its very admirable that you did this. New people are the life blood of any sport and they need a way in.

Ok, I'll go away with my stupid shotgun analogies and uninformed comments. haha

Low stress match is what local matches are for. There are no prize tables, no trophies. If you want to go shoot a 2-day, great. You don't even need a membership, which is what plenty of people do. Go support the MDs who are busting their butts to host a 2-day match, regardless of whether 80 or 380 people show up.

 

[JBoomhauer]

is factory ammo that much better than handloads to make another class or restriction?
Could it possibly not matter whether factory or handloads?
I wouldn’t be surprised if my handloads are less accurate than good match ammo. I don’t think I’m good enough to really tell.

I guess if Frank thinks it’s a factor then it is. Haha! Kinda dumb I would question an expert.

I know the berger match shit is way better than anything I make. The factor is me, and cost.

Now I can see factory ammo for the guy that is running “Tac” with 75gr solids at 3029 fps.

 

[Baron23]

Low stress match is what local matches are for. There are no prize tables, no trophies. If you want to go shoot a 2-day, great. You don't even need a membership, which is what plenty of people do. Go support the MDs who are busting their butts to host a 2-day match, regardless of whether 80 or 380 people show up.

But wouldn't it be great to have a program where you could be walked thru a fairly standard PRS type match set up and be introduced to equipment you may not have thought of, some insight into how to go about building a position for the various presentations, and even more important, perhaps...what you need consider, strategize, and determine before you step up to shoot. Not to even mention the etiquette expected as a member of a squad or whatever you call the group that goes thru the shoot together. Just thoughts....cause just jumping into a match...local or not...does indeed seem like baptism of fire that does not seem completely necessary to me.

And I have zero idea why you addressed any comments to me about butt busting MDs and shoots that are 80 or 380. I ran a national top 20 skeet shoot for a time and I know how much grueling hard work it is to run a shooting competition and how thankless it often is. So, I'm puzzled why you are snapping at my ankles.

As I said, at 70 y.o. I'm not shooting rifle comps anytime soon....and I acknowledged my lack of experience and knowledge about PRS type events. So I'm bailing out of any further comments in this thread.

Cheers