Eagle Eye Ammo is also as good as hand loads, same with Berger. "Factory" ammo is basically a meaningless distinction. MIGHT make a difference with the top 5, but most likely not given how good those options are.
-
Having trouble using the site?
Contact support
New Year, New Rules, maybe ...
- Thread starter Lowlight
- Start date
Hornady was 12fps at one time, today it is 28fps as an SD
Berger is better, and the Federal GM 6.5 is good, Chris was just at my Range Chronographing cases of factory that MHSA gave him, lots of cases.
The Best was Federal GM, if I remember right, it was currently sitting around 15fps, Berger was a close second, I ran in during the Alaska Arctic Guardian Match and believe I had an 18fps as an SD with it
Berger is better, and the Federal GM 6.5 is good, Chris was just at my Range Chronographing cases of factory that MHSA gave him, lots of cases.
The Best was Federal GM, if I remember right, it was currently sitting around 15fps, Berger was a close second, I ran in during the Alaska Arctic Guardian Match and believe I had an 18fps as an SD with it
I work fishing tournaments and people will "Game" the rules and cheat, no nicer way to say it.
After some thought it might get some factory sponsorship providing ammo.
Sorry, wasn’t referring to you in particular. Also plenty of local matches run exactly what you’re describing. Arizona crew AZLRPRS is one of the best that I’ve seen, and run shooter clinics to get new competitors comfortable with match formats, props, etc.
Thanks and no hard feelings. Glad to know about AZ....but sadly I live in the socialist state of Maryland....well, for now! haha
Cheers and best of luck.
The hurdle I see is that a beginner on hist first day is thrust into playing the same game as the top level pros. same targets, same time, same positions. its one game designed to challenge the top shooters. it's overwhelming and discouraging for beginners.
The rifle, gear, and ammo doesnt matter on a competitive level for beginners.
Tell me if you've never played golf is the most expensive set of clubs going to help you play against Tiger Woods at Pebble Beach? and when you dont make par the hole is over for you.
The rifle, gear, and ammo doesnt matter on a competitive level for beginners.
Tell me if you've never played golf is the most expensive set of clubs going to help you play against Tiger Woods at Pebble Beach? and when you dont make par the hole is over for you.
Last edited:
This is where improvement can be made. The gap between 1 day and 2 day matches has closed. At the ranges I shoot at, the stages are identical. It's very difficult for new shooters. 5/80 scores are common.
Up here in Canada our monthly national Rimfire COF has become difficult enough that my wife and son are not interested anymore. My successful 40 something, physically capable, shooting experienced wife, is not interested in being called a snowflake by a pumped up wanna be hardass playing high speed low drag games and then heading back to the office to send emails on Monday. That means I go by myself if there is no family scheduling conflict, instead of it becoming a family affair that the kids do too because they are there anyway. Rodeo families are all in because that’s their weekend for all the members. Without similar buy in, the sport will not advance.
Part of the problem is,
The better shooters don't want you there, you are in their way
Even read here, the, "I shoot PRS" crowd doesn't want to change things to help new shooters; they want you to go to a 1-day match vs a 2-day match, but don't ask them who pays the bills, it's not the rockstars it's the mid-Pack guys
But you mid-pack people can just get out of their way, read it in this thread, they come right out and say it, but they definitely like to imply it a lot.
The better shooters don't want you there, you are in their way
Even read here, the, "I shoot PRS" crowd doesn't want to change things to help new shooters; they want you to go to a 1-day match vs a 2-day match, but don't ask them who pays the bills, it's not the rockstars it's the mid-Pack guys
But you mid-pack people can just get out of their way, read it in this thread, they come right out and say it, but they definitely like to imply it a lot.
I think more MDs running local matches the way they/we want to is the solution. It doesn’t make any $$ for national orgs though.
This is not true. From the top to the bottom the people in the PRS are awesome. We try to grow the sport. Not a single time have I seen a top shooter discourage any new shooter from coming back. I always see new shooters welcomed and helped in every way. The top shooters are all super passionate about the sport and sharing the hobby with others.
I have volunteered countless hours helping beginners in every way I can think of. I have answered hundreds of questions on facebook messenger from new shooters asking for advice. I have helped them mount their scopes, helped pick out good gear to purchase, taken them to my own land to shoot and never charged a dime. I have helped multiple people learn to reload so they could attend matches cheaper. I have let them borrow my reloading equipment, rifles, and scopes so they could attend matches. I started a beginners match that is all prone or from a bench to give people in my area an easy introduction to the sport. I spent almost $1,000 on steel for this match and I pay out 100% of entries without keeping a dime. Almost all "better shooters" in the sport could tell similar stories.
There are rules that could be changed for the better, but these rambling attacks you point at swaths of good people don't do anything to further that cause.
Last edited:
What are you, an international champion or something?
Whatever happens in 2023 they need more shooters. The matches I attend on the east coast have not been selling out, 2-3 years ago they filled up in a few days with a wait list.
Production class is a joke due to the $ limits and nobody is seen shooting a Tikka or similar rifle. Which is how it should have been in my mind. A place to start with a decent rifle and building skills.
Again, without new blood it will die a slow death
Production class is a joke due to the $ limits and nobody is seen shooting a Tikka or similar rifle. Which is how it should have been in my mind. A place to start with a decent rifle and building skills.
Again, without new blood it will die a slow death
I still say make two classes; amateur and pro.
Easiest way to do this is through entry fees and prize tables. Up the entry fee for PRO to $500, and then pay the entry fees out accordingly. You'd be talking $25,000 to pay out if you had 100 pro shooters enter a match keeping costs the same. This number could easily increase if there is increased numbers of shooters partaking in the match.
Make amateur a cheaper entry fee, say $150 or so. The prize table should be at random to the am shooters only.
The sport will never grow unless more money is pumped into it. The sport will also not grow relying on sponsors to pay the so called "pro" shooters there are now.
Easiest way to do this is through entry fees and prize tables. Up the entry fee for PRO to $500, and then pay the entry fees out accordingly. You'd be talking $25,000 to pay out if you had 100 pro shooters enter a match keeping costs the same. This number could easily increase if there is increased numbers of shooters partaking in the match.
Make amateur a cheaper entry fee, say $150 or so. The prize table should be at random to the am shooters only.
The sport will never grow unless more money is pumped into it. The sport will also not grow relying on sponsors to pay the so called "pro" shooters there are now.
One of the local ranges has three colors for its targets. Do the same for matches. You can try the top color and have a second chance at the next lower one. Then you are done. Repeat. Or start with the lowest, hit it, and you are done. Repeat. Targets are 1 mil, .5 mil, and .3 mil. Scores based on first shot and target type then drop from there.
A factory rifle is competitive on the 1 mil and if you do it right, .5 mil. but .3 mil at 600 plus is pushing all the rifles and you have to have it all together to make it work.
With that target setup you then can have a shooter class if you want. But I think there is enough for everyone with that target selection.
A factory rifle is competitive on the 1 mil and if you do it right, .5 mil. but .3 mil at 600 plus is pushing all the rifles and you have to have it all together to make it work.
With that target setup you then can have a shooter class if you want. But I think there is enough for everyone with that target selection.
Name one shooting sport besides PRS that has adopted that idea.
Just one.
That's what they call a clue.
When I did my first NRL22 match - this is what happened to me - it would have been nice if there was an orientation match to give an idea what to expect, but I got through it, now I just watch YouTube vids of guys that run through the COF to get an idea what to expect and how I should prepare for the stages. I did get some help and advice but not as much as I thought I would, I guess my expectations were too high.
Thats awesome. sounds like you are going above and beyond and creating your own thing. and I think thats the point LL is making. the powers that be in PRS have no intrest in creating what you are. which is a transitional beginner or intermideiate game thate gets people into the sport. In its entirity PRS is a game created by top shooters for top shooters and people striving to be. Production class thing was BS because its not the gear that makes people beginners. I will say that as a lower pack shooter all the pros Ive met were very friendly and helpful but why wouldnt they be it's their house. we're helping to support it like a pyramid scheme.
I got my feet wet shooting prone matches along side open ones in lowkey $20 monthly club matches that were more like live practice than anything. those were waaay more fun than "official" prs events. in fact when they turned into more official events I stopped going.
Now I'll go to a few matches a year when the weather is nice because im not really trying to compete and well its not that serious.
When friends ask about shooting matches I DO NOT reccomend it. is that how it should be?
In my opinion production class in almost all shooting sports isnt designed to get new shooters involved its is solely designed to get manufacturers support. Thats where the money is if you can show firearm manufacturers how they will sell more if they sponsor matches, we have a class to prove it, and show me a company that wants to be known as the cheapest entry point to a given discipline. That's why a dollar amount doesnt make sense.
Precision rifle has a few limitations for new shooters I have seen in my limited experience.
There are very few places in my area to shoot past 300 yards so my 1 local match a month is the only time I can stretch out. Pistol and shotgun competitions dont have this limitation. Many competitors start out by casually shooting with friends at there local range until they feel good enough to test themselfs against others and if there isnt a local long range club for people its a fairly large leap to comps.
Mabe how I started has some value in this. For me I missed an antelope at 500 yards one year so I looked up places to practice and the only thing I found was my local match. I started looking into matches and found a bunch of youtube videos uploaded by the nrl. It looked like something I could do so i built a budget rifle since I didn't want to fully commit remington 700 barreled action in a used chassis with an Athlon scope it wasnt a production legal setup but I didnt care, i knew I wouldn't be competive no matter what I used and it was cheaper than anything else I found. Seems to me most new people don't want to invest in something they have never tried.
Lastly is the goal getting new people to show up to matches or keeping the new people that do show? It takes diffrent approches for both. These threads seem to devolve to people that do shoot comps complaing about what they don't like about matches or people that no matter what you do for them will never shoot a comp and gave 1000 excuses as to why, you could do everything and supply everything and they still wont show.
Precision rifle has a few limitations for new shooters I have seen in my limited experience.
There are very few places in my area to shoot past 300 yards so my 1 local match a month is the only time I can stretch out. Pistol and shotgun competitions dont have this limitation. Many competitors start out by casually shooting with friends at there local range until they feel good enough to test themselfs against others and if there isnt a local long range club for people its a fairly large leap to comps.
Mabe how I started has some value in this. For me I missed an antelope at 500 yards one year so I looked up places to practice and the only thing I found was my local match. I started looking into matches and found a bunch of youtube videos uploaded by the nrl. It looked like something I could do so i built a budget rifle since I didn't want to fully commit remington 700 barreled action in a used chassis with an Athlon scope it wasnt a production legal setup but I didnt care, i knew I wouldn't be competive no matter what I used and it was cheaper than anything else I found. Seems to me most new people don't want to invest in something they have never tried.
Lastly is the goal getting new people to show up to matches or keeping the new people that do show? It takes diffrent approches for both. These threads seem to devolve to people that do shoot comps complaing about what they don't like about matches or people that no matter what you do for them will never shoot a comp and gave 1000 excuses as to why, you could do everything and supply everything and they still wont show.
The goal is no longer to grow the sport, grow the sport was a line, a fake line to hide the truth
They don’t want to grow anything as nothing is designed to help. The GAPGrind is the only effort and they turned that into a cash register not a vehicle to help people.
Shooters who do PRS don’t want growth they want accommodations, they want increased recognition and more resources for themselves, sharing mean less shooting
Grow the sport is a joke
They don’t want to grow anything as nothing is designed to help. The GAPGrind is the only effort and they turned that into a cash register not a vehicle to help people.
Shooters who do PRS don’t want growth they want accommodations, they want increased recognition and more resources for themselves, sharing mean less shooting
Grow the sport is a joke
So what beginner friendly matches are you hosting next year? Snipers Hide Cup is not very friendly skill-wise for a new shooter.
What a DOUCHE,
In case you missed it, I support and shoot Guardian Matches and feel they are the best format for new shooters and in fact the majority of Guardian Shooters are New ...
The SH Challenge in Colville is absolutely new shooter friendly... it's more like a local match with the RTC; in fact, I gave a 15-year-old girl a rifle as she moved through the match. He Dad was crowing about her cleaning stages with a borrowed 223 coyote rifle, so I "prized" a new-in-box Hancock.
The SH Cup will be over in 2023, 20 years of the Cup, and I am done; it's gonna be in NE and be an epic farewell.
I have said many times; I am done; I go to matches, use a FAKE NAME, and watch the drama; I like when guys come up to me and say, I saw you here but didn't see your name, so I thought I was mistaken.
This is to inspire others, more interested parties in changing something they may not realize they have the power to change. The rules are not written in stone and handed down from the mountains, you can adjust them
In case you missed it, I support and shoot Guardian Matches and feel they are the best format for new shooters and in fact the majority of Guardian Shooters are New ...
The SH Challenge in Colville is absolutely new shooter friendly... it's more like a local match with the RTC; in fact, I gave a 15-year-old girl a rifle as she moved through the match. He Dad was crowing about her cleaning stages with a borrowed 223 coyote rifle, so I "prized" a new-in-box Hancock.
The SH Cup will be over in 2023, 20 years of the Cup, and I am done; it's gonna be in NE and be an epic farewell.
I have said many times; I am done; I go to matches, use a FAKE NAME, and watch the drama; I like when guys come up to me and say, I saw you here but didn't see your name, so I thought I was mistaken.
This is to inspire others, more interested parties in changing something they may not realize they have the power to change. The rules are not written in stone and handed down from the mountains, you can adjust them
So if you’re done supporting/hosting matches, what do you care how future matches are run? Let others do what they want, I thought this was a free country.
Because I helped start this, and you all are fucking it up,
I don't like what I see, and believe I have the interest to see it progress in a positive way
As you said, free country, if you don't like my opinion, suggestions or writing why dont you just FUCK THE HELL OFF as this is MY HOUSE and you are a guest, if you don't like the party I am having you are welcome to leave vs telling me what I can and cannot talk about on MY SITE
I remember it was a conversation in the media, if you don't like something make your own, I did and now I get to talk about whatever I want. Pretty bold of you to tell me, the site owner, to stop talking about something of long-term interest to me.
New Engagers of Old Endeavours often speak to the Older Engagers for advice and recommendations on directions of the activity as they navigate the future.
I don't like what I see, and believe I have the interest to see it progress in a positive way
As you said, free country, if you don't like my opinion, suggestions or writing why dont you just FUCK THE HELL OFF as this is MY HOUSE and you are a guest, if you don't like the party I am having you are welcome to leave vs telling me what I can and cannot talk about on MY SITE
I remember it was a conversation in the media, if you don't like something make your own, I did and now I get to talk about whatever I want. Pretty bold of you to tell me, the site owner, to stop talking about something of long-term interest to me.
New Engagers of Old Endeavours often speak to the Older Engagers for advice and recommendations on directions of the activity as they navigate the future.
Just out of interest, do you feel as if you are getting honest feedback when you behave this way? Seems like many people may stay quite due to the 'my house" doctrine, rather than offering a opposing position......
Best of luck though to your views, if the ideas are beneficial to those that compete in this sport, hopefully they will be adopted.
Just dangerous to assume everyone one else is stupid in the room, though at times it can be the case......
Pete
It won’t they make a point of pushing back
I will say some do change in small ways but this stuff changes nothing and everyone knows it which is why they talk stupid
Kinda over it, look at a place like cameo, they started a local series there, no bags or tripods because they hate what they see
No bags and no tripods is dumb for a field course but due to shitty rules, worse enforcement the range believes it needs rules that go against common sense
This is all common sense based and it’s clear me many shooters have none
I will say some do change in small ways but this stuff changes nothing and everyone knows it which is why they talk stupid
Kinda over it, look at a place like cameo, they started a local series there, no bags or tripods because they hate what they see
No bags and no tripods is dumb for a field course but due to shitty rules, worse enforcement the range believes it needs rules that go against common sense
This is all common sense based and it’s clear me many shooters have none
Am I reading correctly that you have matches wherein the bottom shooters are only hitting five out of 80 shots? That’s an MD problem. If your bottom shooters don’t have the potential to hit 30-40% of available targets, the the COF is fucked and it’s the MD or whoever designs your stages that is the problem. This is one of the things that Frank has tried to impress upon the community, but that some obviously miss.
It’s the same game, just different name and general region.
Do yourself a favor and read the beginning of the thread and as you do you will realize that Frank started out with a few well meaning suggestions for one area that he saw could use improvement. A couple people took this as an attack instead of the possibility to have some real discussion and so attacked Frank.
He only eventually responded with rancor once he saw that these persons were intent on squashing any constructive conversation because, “Everything is awesome!”
The truth is, everything is not awesome (unless you’re at the top) and any hobby sport that wants to truly grow must continue to question itself and improve or it will decline with like think attitudes and inbreeding of ideas.
Getting back to the dollar amount. Let’s say, you put the limit at a list price of $1500.00 which was roughly the list price of an RPR in 2017. However, I paid $1379.00 in 2017. (Nice LGS) Just up the road, the price was $1540.00 at another LGS. Even under Former President Trump we had inflation. Now inflation is quoted at 8% and change and I can’t find anything that is only 8% higher than it was two years ago. So, you want to purchase a RPR in 6.5 Creedmoor. Almost identical to mine except that now Ruger charges more than $1879.00. Mine is legal for production and your’s is not. Same gun, same cartridge, but inflation, not extra goodies is what makes your rifle not the same as mine.
As Frank said, set a price and folks will build rifles to that price. Not a bad thing for folks on a budget, but totally unworkable as a competition rule. And that is when it is set quite high. Set it low and shortly a large part of the rifles currently in use, become ineligible.
As Frank said, set a price and folks will build rifles to that price. Not a bad thing for folks on a budget, but totally unworkable as a competition rule. And that is when it is set quite high. Set it low and shortly a large part of the rifles currently in use, become ineligible.
As I always have said, the fun of shooting steel is shooting steel. shooting dirt is pretty much pointless because dirt is pretty much already dead.
- Nov 3, 2010
- 9,691
- 20,355
Or now your gun doesn’t qualify for the production class. MSRP is based off current year, not what you paid for it. Just look at the recent changes in some 22 leagues. They now say the CZ457 in a manners is no longer in the production series cause MSRP went up this year. Now you have a shitload of folks that bought a production gun to shoot, and they can’t shoot in that class now
There isn't a single shooting sport that has a different (easier) course of fire for newer shooters. Everyone shoots the same thing.
New shooters will almost always finish towards the bottom. Some new shooters can't handle the blow to the ego. In all shooting sports. Seen it many times.
Right to one of the two core aspects of how dumb it is to define a division based on what the equipment costs. It boggles the mind how someone could be so stupid to think this makes any sense.
Cool, clearly there is alot going on behind the scenes regarding your feelings and attempts to have the series improve in the way you envisage......
PRS is still a reasonably new type of shooting sport here, everyone enjoys new stuff, but for how long is the test!
Pete
It's not, it's already tiring, and people are moving on; it was new in 2012, and it is more than 10 years now.
Nothing successful goes through so many hands without actually changing anything, it has been bought and sold four times now, and each time it gets worse.
Volume alone does not make something successful when it is the only game in town for a lot of people. Out where people had choices, and they voted against the PRS model
Look at the real-world numbers they post online; less than 400 people registered as PRS members shoot at least 3 matches as required to compete in the finale. The numbers are bullshit, and everyone outside of the public knows it
The numbers don't lie, the fact a small group can appear bigger is not sustainable
Nothing successful goes through so many hands without actually changing anything, it has been bought and sold four times now, and each time it gets worse.
Volume alone does not make something successful when it is the only game in town for a lot of people. Out where people had choices, and they voted against the PRS model
Look at the real-world numbers they post online; less than 400 people registered as PRS members shoot at least 3 matches as required to compete in the finale. The numbers are bullshit, and everyone outside of the public knows it
The numbers don't lie, the fact a small group can appear bigger is not sustainable
Look up hunting and archery numbers
As well look up F Class matches, these are drop in the bucket numbers compared to others shooting sports
They are not the PROS like Nascar or Football, you are talking Pro Football, how many are signed up for Pop Warner or whatever they may call High School football now
As well look up F Class matches, these are drop in the bucket numbers compared to others shooting sports
They are not the PROS like Nascar or Football, you are talking Pro Football, how many are signed up for Pop Warner or whatever they may call High School football now
IMO there is a lot of interest in the general public as many are familiar with the concept of precision long range competition. However, not nearly as many are interested in the actual competition as they perceive it. There are a multitude of reasons from too expensive to too much time required, etc. But in the end there is a perceived elitism and and feeling new shooters will be not be welcome - most of this is self doubt on their part but never the less nobody wants to feel ridiculed or made fun of. This perception probably comes more from social media than actual conversation or any first hand knowledge.
The Guardian matches are well known and received without the same perceived attitudes. When the leagues begin to ask WHY and analyze how to better emulate the Guardian matches those outside looking in will begin to participate.
The Guardian matches are well known and received without the same perceived attitudes. When the leagues begin to ask WHY and analyze how to better emulate the Guardian matches those outside looking in will begin to participate.
The why is right here in front of you.
They don't want you at a 2-day match; they just said it.
The perceptions are real in a lot of ways, there is no welcoming to a match for new shooters; it's fend for yourselves today; they do not educate, don't walk new shooters through, anything you show up, and you are expected to fall in exactly like the experienced people
Again, I will say this against my better judgment, think about K&M, the location, the range, and what it means to the PRS, and then ask yourself, what media do they put out ?
I'll wait; how do they educate, how do they recruit new shooters, what do they do when new shooters arrive ?
I still can't believe we have to point out the obvious, there is no support, pay your money, show up, wait for you name to be called, go home.
They have what could be considered one of the better location in the US to shoot a precision rifle yet you have NOTHING COMING OUT OF THAT RANGE in terms of education, NOTHING ....
NO RANGE OFFICER PROGRAM - (I would think this would solve a lot of problems with more people educated how to RO) How about sending an Official to every event as an arbitrator or at least someone not invested.
NO NEW SHOOTER PIPELINE
NOTHING, pay your money and enjoy the ride, oh wait, you expected more, too bad
I have repeated this so often they either don't care about you, or are so dead set against doing anything that might appear to come from me, they are holding their breath to hurt me,
Guardians have training programs for pennies on the dollar, and you can call time out to help someone as well as just tell the RO he is new and I will assist, no problem enjoy, you can hold a person's hand through the course of fire, but mainly on the set day you will be paired with a better shooter anyway to help you with the team aspect.
They don't want you at a 2-day match; they just said it.
The perceptions are real in a lot of ways, there is no welcoming to a match for new shooters; it's fend for yourselves today; they do not educate, don't walk new shooters through, anything you show up, and you are expected to fall in exactly like the experienced people
Again, I will say this against my better judgment, think about K&M, the location, the range, and what it means to the PRS, and then ask yourself, what media do they put out ?
I'll wait; how do they educate, how do they recruit new shooters, what do they do when new shooters arrive ?
I still can't believe we have to point out the obvious, there is no support, pay your money, show up, wait for you name to be called, go home.
They have what could be considered one of the better location in the US to shoot a precision rifle yet you have NOTHING COMING OUT OF THAT RANGE in terms of education, NOTHING ....
NO RANGE OFFICER PROGRAM - (I would think this would solve a lot of problems with more people educated how to RO) How about sending an Official to every event as an arbitrator or at least someone not invested.
NO NEW SHOOTER PIPELINE
NOTHING, pay your money and enjoy the ride, oh wait, you expected more, too bad
I have repeated this so often they either don't care about you, or are so dead set against doing anything that might appear to come from me, they are holding their breath to hurt me,
Guardians have training programs for pennies on the dollar, and you can call time out to help someone as well as just tell the RO he is new and I will assist, no problem enjoy, you can hold a person's hand through the course of fire, but mainly on the set day you will be paired with a better shooter anyway to help you with the team aspect.
That's not what I'm suggesting. I'm saying that 1 day and 2 day matches should not be the same level of difficulty.
I've only done less than a handful of PRS club matches but done dozens of USPSA matches per yer for the last 3 years including section (level 2) and area (level 3) matches.
Those two are more difficult than level 1 (club) matches but not by much.
I'm still on the position that newbs need to suck it up and bear down.
Is it a sport or is it entertainment? Gotta pick one or the other.
Sell it on the site. Or make the preferred ammo part of the entry fee that is provided on site. In either case, using supplied ammo is required.
Yes, I realize, there will be some brands not available and complaints will occur, but with today's rounds, probably not hard within two or three brands to find one that will shoot well in a decent rifle.
I actually proposed this in IHMSA when participation was falling off and members/clubs were struggling to appeal to new shooters. Using the same course set up but with different, larger targets, let the newer shooters shoot the closer ranges/targets, the more experienced shooters shoot the furthest targets and preferably half scale. (really simplified but you get the idea.). Have the newer shooters shoot in the morning with the experienced hands coaching them (Coaching during course of fire is legal in IHMSA) Then let the old hands have at it on a more difficult course of fire during the afternoon. Everyone I talked to said, NO, we don't want to change a thing. So they didn't. In the past few years, whole clubs have dropped the sport.
While this has fell on totally death ears. Just because it has never been done, why not do it?
Similar threads
