Newb needs help 308 Win and Varget +168 Hor. HPBT

[HectorInTexas]

Hello all ,new to the sight and long range accuracy. I have been loading awhile now but am now just getting into hand loading for long range. Got my first rem 700 in 308 and I am pretty excited about working up loads for it. Well got my case all prepped and sat down to pull the handle this evening. My components are as follows:

Remington 700 Varmint, 26 heavy barrel 1 in 12 twist
Varget Powder
CCI large rife primers
Winchester Brass
Hornady Match BTHP

Here is my issue. The Hornady load manual's starting load is 32.6 grains of powder. I think max is 42 grains. But on the powder jug it calls for 46 grains for the same round only made by sierra. Is it possible to be at such different ends of the spectrum? I am trying to be very careful here. Just doesn't seem to be hot enough for the round. Searching through the posts it seems like everyone is in the 40's no matter what weight bullet.Any input would help and be appreciated. 2 different Horandy manuals are telling me the same thing.(thought it was a misprint)

 

[Shady_Jay]

Re: Newb needs help 308 Win and Varget +168 Hor. HPBT

you will find your load around 46.0..... I will personally buy you a new rifle if 46.0 blows your rifle up with 168's.

 

[HectorInTexas]

Re: Newb needs help 308 Win and Varget +168 Hor. HPBT

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NTRP-CKA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">you will find your load around 46.0..... I will personally buy you a new rifle if 46.0 blows your rifle up with 168's. </div></div>
Really?any idea why the 2 are so far apart?

 

[Shady_Jay]

Re: Newb needs help 308 Win and Varget +168 Hor. HPBT

lawyers proof read manuals

 

[Shady_Jay]

Re: Newb needs help 308 Win and Varget +168 Hor. HPBT

start around 44.5 and go up. Most factory .308's hit max pressure between 45.0 and 45.8 with 175's.... you have more room with the 168's. I would be more conservative with a custom chamber, but not a lot.

 

[HectorInTexas]

Re: Newb needs help 308 Win and Varget +168 Hor. HPBT

Thanks for the info, like I said it would seem that both sierra and Hornady are pretty much the same round as far as weight,diameter and bullet style.HPBT is a HPBT. I know there are prolly stricter tolerances to make them "match" but damn 10 grains? That's got my head hurting.

 

[Shady_Jay]

Re: Newb needs help 308 Win and Varget +168 Hor. HPBT

Of current production books, the Lyman is probably the best. Even then, some listed max pressures are dead on and some are way to low. Always start at a low point you are comfortable with and then work up.... but starting at 32 gr is like turning your .308 into a 30-30

 

[littlerascal56]

Re: Newb needs help 308 Win and Varget +168 Hor. HPBT

I use the website below for most of my load data, and it has provided very accurate data. I sold all my old reloading manuals at a garage sale!

http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp


I have built several guns on the M700 Varmint 26" HB 1:12, and they all love 168's over 45.0 gr Varget. You can work up from that, but 45.5+ really didn't shoot tighter groups IMO.

 

[notquiteright]

Re: Newb needs help 308 Win and Varget +168 Hor. HPBT

I've found 44 to 45 grains of varget give very good results and dont cause as much brass flow as 46 grains.

I use factory and custom chambers so a milder load functions well in all. Well that and being lazy so doing alot of brass prep seems so boring

 

[HectorInTexas]

Re: Newb needs help 308 Win and Varget +168 Hor. HPBT

So, no issues with over pressures? No primer flattening? My reloading mentor is convinced the books are correct. He suggests that Hornady tests their own rounds with the powders listed.And bullet design may be the difference. So I should stick with the book, at the same time whats the point if the round won't carry 500 yards accuratley? May have to go to a Sierra. Anyone out there have first hand experience with the 168 Match Hornady BTHP?

 

[John L]

Re: Newb needs help 308 Win and Varget +168 Hor. HPBT

If you want to shoot long range with a .308 there are much better bullets for the job. The 168 may not be the best choice.

 

[Nessal]

Re: Newb needs help 308 Win and Varget +168 Hor. HPBT

32.6 grn of varget is extremely low. I say start at 42 and work your way up to 46. Some people have pressure issues as low as 44grns but I don't have any issues at all at 46 except that it shot like crap.

 

[81sfo]

Re: Newb needs help 308 Win and Varget +168 Hor. HPBT

45 gn of varget with the 168 will make you happy,the 168 bthp shoots great with 45 varget or 42 gn Reloader 15.

 

[HectorInTexas]

Re: Newb needs help 308 Win and Varget +168 Hor. HPBT

Anyone have any chrono data? So what is the opinion as for as the difference in sierra vs Hornady to cause such a big gap in grains?

 

[gcoulsey]

Re: Newb needs help 308 Win and Varget +168 Hor. HPBT

Sierra and hornady make bullets,
Hodgens make the powder.

Go with the powder manufacturers info as a rule of thumb.. They make the stuff..

 

[HectorInTexas]

Re: Newb needs help 308 Win and Varget +168 Hor. HPBT

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gfunkUK</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sierra and hornady make bullets,
Hodgens make the powder.

Go with the powder manufacturers info as a rule of thumb.. They make the stuff..

</div></div>

Like I said the bottle has 46 grains for a sierra BTHP. I just cant get my brain wrapped around what the bullet differences are to be such a wide gap.

 

[kickinneon]

Re: Newb needs help 308 Win and Varget +168 Hor. HPBT

I'm shooting a sierra 175gr hpbt with 46gr's of varget with no problems so far. i have been getting 5 shot groups of .500 and better. The best group to date is .338" 5 shots.

 

[samnev]

Re: Newb needs help 308 Win and Varget +168 Hor. HPBT

The shooter's using Varget and 168 SMK's I've talked too all use around 45 grains of Varget.

 

[former naval person]

Re: Newb needs help 308 Win and Varget +168 Hor. HPBT

Hector, you've asked the experts on this site for their experience. If you don't believe them, start at your 32 grains and waste powder and bullets. My rifle is using 44.5 grains of Varget with the 168 grain bullets in Federal Gold Medal Match cases...and getting 6 to 8 reloads and counting. If that load produced excessive pressure, those cases would be toast in 2 or 3 reloadings. Every rifle is different so start lower...say 42 grains, and work up to an accuracy node. Read the stickies at the start of this site section on handloading. JMHO

 

[njlohmann]

Re: Newb needs help 308 Win and Varget +168 Hor. HPBT

Go ahead and do a traditional load build up.

 

[beretta989]

Re: Newb needs help 308 Win and Varget +168 Hor. HPBT

168s seated at 2.830 with 45gr varget in Lapua brass is what my factory Rem 700 308 shot best before I had it rebarreled. Fps was right around 2640 but I think I had a slow barrel. That same load in my new 25' is 2685. But starting around 44-44.5 and running up to 46 you are sure to find somthing that will shoot good.

 

[Jhnmdahl]

Re: Newb needs help 308 Win and Varget +168 Hor. HPBT

32 grains is just odd. 42 grains seems a very reasonable starting place, and you'll probably end up around 43.5-44 grains like most others. At 46 grains, I would be surprised if you didn't see pressure signs.

 

[Kevlars]

Re: Newb needs help 308 Win and Varget +168 Hor. HPBT

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: former naval person</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hector, you've asked the experts on this site for their experience. If you don't believe them, start at your 32 grains and waste powder and bullets. My rifle is using 44.5 grains of Varget with the 168 grain bullets in Federal Gold Medal Match cases...and getting 6 to 8 reloads and counting. If that load produced excessive pressure, those cases would be toast in 2 or 3 reloadings. Every rifle is different so start lower...say 42 grains, and work up to an accuracy node. Read the stickies at the start of this site section on handloading. JMHO</div></div>
+1
44.5 seems resonable as I am using 44.0 with 175 SMK are you using a Chronographer of any kind that is critical. I would also suggest that you get a program such as Loadbase 3 that will give you some very accurate load data. However you need to build your own loads up as every rifle is differnt inspecting every shot for pressure signs.

good Luck.

 

[HectorInTexas]

Re: Newb needs help 308 Win and Varget +168 Hor. HPBT

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: former naval person</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hector, you've asked the experts on this site for their experience. If you don't believe them, start at your 32 grains and waste powder and bullets. My rifle is using 44.5 grains of Varget with the 168 grain bullets in Federal Gold Medal Match cases...and getting 6 to 8 reloads and counting. If that load produced excessive pressure, those cases would be toast in 2 or 3 reloadings. Every rifle is different so start lower...say 42 grains, and work up to an accuracy node. Read the stickies at the start of this site section on handloading. JMHO </div></div>

Not that I don't believe them,just that I enjoy the math. I know there are questions that cant be answered. From what I have been reading the Hornady manual is conservative in all respects. Mostly wondering if anyone else used the same combination of components, read the load data from Hornady ans said "wtf?"

 

[Roscoe_M4]

Re: Newb needs help 308 Win and Varget +168 Hor. HPBT

Hector,

I use the 168 Hornady BTHP Match and worked up a couple of loads to duplicate the Black Hills 168s, which use the same bullet. I wanted a practice load that would shoot like off the shelf ammo for matches. The 168s shoot exceptionally well from 100 to 300 yds and are good out to 800 yds or so. I have a load that works great for me with your components - Winchester (or BHA) brass, 44.5 gr. Varget and CCI primers (try some CCI BR-2s with Varget and your groups should tighten up). I use this load in both my 26" 700P and my 24" GAP custom.

The Winchester brass generally has a little more case volume than other brands. I have gone to 46.0 gr. with 168 SMKs (as well as Nosler and Hornady 168s) and routinely use 45.0 gr. with 175 SMKs without pressure issues. However, I have seen pressure signs as low as 44 gr. with other brands of brass - so you do need to work up your loads any time you change components or powder lots to avoid trouble and find the accuracy node for that unique load.

For 1000 yds I suggest using 175s or 178s and also try some RL-15, working up to something 2.0 - 3.0 gr. below the Varget load. Good shooting!

 

[HectorInTexas]

Re: Newb needs help 308 Win and Varget +168 Hor. HPBT

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Buck</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hector,

I use the 168 Hornady BTHP Match and worked up a couple of loads to duplicate the Black Hills 168s, which use the same bullet. I wanted a practice load that would shoot like off the shelf ammo for matches. The 168s shoot exceptionally well from 100 to 300 yds and are good out to 800 yds or so. I have a load that works great for me with your components - Winchester (or BHA) brass, 44.5 gr. Varget and CCI primers (try some CCI BR-2s with Varget and your groups should tighten up). I use this load in both my 26" 700P and my 24" GAP custom.

The Winchester brass generally has a little more case volume than other brands. I have gone to 46.0 gr. with 168 SMKs (as well as Nosler and Hornady 168s) and routinely use 45.0 gr. with 175 SMKs without pressure issues. However, I have seen pressure signs as low as 44 gr. with other brands of brass - so you do need to work up your loads any time you change components or powder lots to avoid trouble and find the accuracy node for that unique load.

For 1000 yds I suggest using 175s or 178s and also try some RL-15, working up to something 2.0 - 3.0 gr. below the Varget load. Good shooting! </div></div>

Buck, big thanks for the data. Thats the kind of info I was looking for.

Took the rifle out to the range today. As everyone stated 32.6 grains was to low. Had a 6 inch drop at 100 yards.
I had that group made before I started asking questions.

Jumped up to 42,43 and 45.5. Well the gun didn't blow up so that's good. Didn't see any flattened primers either. what other signs of over pressure should I look for? Discovered what everyone else probably already knows. My 5 shot Remington became a single shot with a COL of 2.80. I'll try 44.5 and see what happens. Off this week so I'm going back out in a couple days.

Thanks again to everyone's advice. I am reading the stickies on long range shooting.

 

[jeeptrash]

Re: Newb needs help 308 Win and Varget +168 Hor. HPBT

I know this isn't exactly what your looking for but this is what is working great for me, taken from another thread.

I am shootin a 26" barreled Remington 308 1 in 12. I Just got back from the range this afternoon after testing a new load that is pretty basic but worked well. Five shots .6 Moa at a hundred yards and i couldn't miss the 12" gong at 450 yards with it. Just wish the range went farther here. Range was busy so i didn't set up my chrony today.

178 Amax
Virgin Lapua brass
44 Varget
cci BR2's
coal 2.805

For what its worth that load shot to the exact same point of impact as the other load i have been using at 100 yards.

168 Amax Federal brass, once fired.
44.2 Reloader 15
Cci BR2's
Coal 2.805
average FPS was 2750

 

[tomcatfan]

Re: Newb needs help 308 Win and Varget +168 Hor. HPBT

Hector,
I am new into reloading as well and I have the hornady manual. I have found that just about every load in the book that I have shot (308,223, 9mm, 40, and 45) are low. I guess Hornady is just conservative on thier numbers. But I just exceeded Hornday's max load in 308 by almost a whole grain of Varget with no pressure signs. I don't know if you've stumbled on it yet but there is a great thread on here for 308 loads.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=323517

Good luck and have fun.

 

[dannyvoigt17]

Re: Newb needs help 308 Win and Varget +168 Hor. HPBT

So, no issues with over pressures? No primer flattening? My reloading mentor is convinced the books are correct. He suggests that Hornady tests their own rounds with the powders listed.And bullet design may be the difference. So I should stick with the book, at the same time whats the point if the round won't carry 500 yards accuratley? May have to go to a Sierra. Anyone out there have first hand experience with the 168 Match Hornady BTHP?

I'm using 168gr hornady match bthp out of my howa 1500 HCR apc and it really liked 45gr of varget shot awesome groups out to 800 yards, didnt have any over pressuring signs at all and cases looked beautiful. I started from 42gr and the velocity and accuracy at 300 yards was terrible.

 

[stello1001]

I'm using 168gr hornady match bthp out of my howa 1500 HCR apc and it really liked 45gr of varget shot awesome groups out to 800 yards, didnt have any over pressuring signs at all and cases looked beautiful. I started from 42gr and the velocity and accuracy at 300 yards was terrible.

Im pretty sure he's figured it out by now. It's been 13+ years...