Rifle Scopes Newbie needs help learning scope use

[Leam]

Hey all, I've been shooting for a few years, but never learned to use a scope. Now that I'm trying to, it's a struggle. With a decent rifle and scope, my groups are in the 4"-6" range at 100 yards, and it's all trigger-monkey error.

I have an adjustastable cheek rest, and wear corrective lenses in my glasses. A lot of my shooting is with a sling, so body angle can be a thing, but I'm also trying to learn bipod/bag. The struggle is that when I look through the scope and eliminate shadow, I'm looking through the upper inner portion of my eye, not the center. My glasses get in the way, if I try to push them down to shoot over them, the cheekrest pushes them back up. If they are up, the upper inner bridge of the glasses blocks part of the scope.

I don't mind not wearing glasses, but some ranges object. However, I'd really like some wisdom on resolving this so I can wear my glasses, if at all possible.

How can I fix this issue?

 

[wpeach1912]

Lower your cheek rest or get higher rings so as to keep your head in a more upright position. Also, make sure you're putting the buttpad roughly on your collarbone/top of pectoral rather than the pocket of your shoulder.

 

[Nik H]

I shoot without glasses and both eyes open. My prescription can be corrected by properly setting the diopter of the scope.

What height scope rings are you using? This can affect the head position behind the scope and consequently how you see out of it.

As far as position behind the rifle goes, I would become a supporter here which gives you access to the online training videos. These will be invaluable to you as far as the proper setup of the rifle, your position, and the rest of the fundamentals are concerned. It will be worth the money you spend and will prevent having to unlearn bad habits.

 

[Leam]

Lower your cheek rest or get higher rings so as to keep your head in a more upright position. Also, make sure you're putting the buttpad roughly on your collarbone/top of pectoral rather than the pocket of your shoulder.

I've tried this, but I thought the upper cheekbone was supposed to rest on the cheekpiece? Lowering the cheekpiece will put the contact to the jawbone, won't it?

Let me try it again, I'm up for whatever works. At this point, if I can't figure things out soon I'll just go back to irons.

 

[wpeach1912]

Doesn’t really matter where it contacts as long as it is consistent

 

[Leam]

Doesn’t really matter where it contacts as long as it is consistent

Gave this a go, and it's a good bit better. I still need work, though. I have a 100-400 yard class this weekend, and I'll see if I can figure this out.

 

[Leam]

I shoot without glasses and both eyes open. My prescription can be corrected by properly setting the diopter of the scope.

What height scope rings are you using? This can affect the head position behind the scope and consequently how you see out of it.

As far as position behind the rifle goes, I would become a supporter here which gives you access to the online training videos. These will be invaluable to you as far as the proper setup of the rifle, your position, and the rest of the fundamentals are concerned. It will be worth the money you spend and will prevent having to unlearn bad habits.

I'm cross-eye dominant, and my dominant eye just developed a PVD floater, so keeping that eye closed helps. I prefer to shoot without glasses, if the range lets me. However, if I get into shoot and scoot, wearing glasses will help.

Scope is a 30mm tube, low rings on a low bridge (to get the scope front off the handguard). The bottom of the scope sits about 3/4" (0.725") above the top ridge of the Picatinny rail.

Frank's book is good, and I enjoyed reading it. Not that I understand it all yet. I have an Appleseed Known Distance (KD, 100-400 yards) this weekend; as long as I don't swear off optics for good, being a Supporter here might make a great Christmas present to myself.

 

[Nik H]

I'm cross-eye dominant, and my dominant eye just developed a PVD floater, so keeping that eye closed helps. I prefer to shoot without glasses, if the range lets me. However, if I get into shoot and scoot, wearing glasses will help.

Scope is a 30mm tube, low rings on a low bridge (to get the scope front off the handguard). The bottom of the scope sits about 3/4" (0.725") above the top ridge of the Picatinny rail.

Frank's book is good, and I enjoyed reading it. Not that I understand it all yet. I have an Appleseed Known Distance (KD, 100-400 yards) this weekend; as long as I don't swear off optics for good, being a Supporter here might make a great Christmas present to myself.

Being that you have an adjustable cheekpiece, you should consider a taller set of rings to get your head more upright when in the prone position. Low rings are an artifact from the days when stocks did not offer a cheekpiece adjustment. It will help with your position being correct. Most people use 1.35" or 1.5" tall rings.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Hey all, I've been shooting for a few years, but never learned to use a scope. Now that I'm trying to, it's a struggle. With a decent rifle and scope, my groups are in the 4"-6" range at 100 yards, and it's all trigger-monkey error.

I have an adjustastable cheek rest, and wear corrective lenses in my glasses. A lot of my shooting is with a sling, so body angle can be a thing, but I'm also trying to learn bipod/bag. The struggle is that when I look through the scope and eliminate shadow, I'm looking through the upper inner portion of my eye, not the center. My glasses get in the way, if I try to push them down to shoot over them, the cheekrest pushes them back up. If they are up, the upper inner bridge of the glasses blocks part of the scope.

I don't mind not wearing glasses, but some ranges object. However, I'd really like some wisdom on resolving this so I can wear my glasses, if at all possible.

How can I fix this issue?

Take a class, learn how to shoot a gun. You are just wasting time and money at this point.

 

[Leam]

Take a class, learn how to shoot a gun. You are just wasting time and money at this point.

My apologies if my message wasn't clear. I've learned to shoot a little; I've hit steel at 600 yards with a low end .223 Savage and a hand me down Millett. In my first competition I used a borrowed rifle with no dope, and hit steel at 426 yards while perched on a pallett set at 45 degrees.

Nothing spectacular. That's about my limit with what I currently know, given the classes I've been in. As Chris Way pointed out (https://www.snipershide.com/precision-rifle/mastering-the-basics/), mastering the basics is a life-long project. I know that I know very little, and comments like "Doesn’t really matter where it contacts as long as it is consistent" from @wpeach1912 and @Nik H's "Most people use 1.35" or 1.5" tall rings." help me take my understanding a little bit further.

That's my goal with this question; moving my understanding a step or two forward. Right now, using the optic is my weakest point in the process.

 

[Ronws]

Hey all, I've been shooting for a few years, but never learned to use a scope. Now that I'm trying to, it's a struggle. With a decent rifle and scope, my groups are in the 4"-6" range at 100 yards, and it's all trigger-monkey error.

I have an adjustastable cheek rest, and wear corrective lenses in my glasses. A lot of my shooting is with a sling, so body angle can be a thing, but I'm also trying to learn bipod/bag. The struggle is that when I look through the scope and eliminate shadow, I'm looking through the upper inner portion of my eye, not the center. My glasses get in the way, if I try to push them down to shoot over them, the cheekrest pushes them back up. If they are up, the upper inner bridge of the glasses blocks part of the scope.

I don't mind not wearing glasses, but some ranges object. However, I'd really like some wisdom on resolving this so I can wear my glasses, if at all possible.

How can I fix this issue?

Been there, done that. Other than changing your angle to the gun, get those elastic eyeglass keepers and put that on. Then cinch it up to where your glasses stay put.

 

[Baron23]

Doesn’t really matter where it contacts as long as it is consistent

Eh, I don't agree. While you can indeed do a jaw weld, it can't be as reproducible shot after shot as a good mount under the cheek bone.

Just my opinion and not worth more than that.

 

[Baron23]

I prefer to shoot without glasses, if the range lets me. However, if I get into shoot and scoot, wearing glasses will help.

Please wear glasses...if not your regular prescription glasses (with the frames that seem to interfer a bit), then just plano shooting glasses and an adjusted diopter to correct as mentioned by @Nik H.

Stuff does happen sometimes and glasses can save your eyesight. Always wear eye and ear protection, IMO.

 

[spife7980]

I say wear your glasses when you shoot too. I do. Sure the scope may not look great for the next person but who cares. It’s your scope. They can buy their own.

With eyes closed and the rifle on the bench, shoulder the rifle and open your eyes. Are you looking above or below where you need to be? Adjust cheek piece as necessary so that when you naturally rest your cheek it’s in the right place.

 

[Leam]

Please wear glasses...if not your regular prescription glasses (with the frames that seem to interfer a bit), then just plano shooting glasses and an adjusted diopter to correct as mentioned by @Nik H.

Stuff does happen sometimes and glasses can save your eyesight. Always wear eye and ear protection, IMO.

For the record, I did wear my glasses this weekend. I need to do my personal AAR, there were a lot of "learning opportunities".

 

[RayDBonz]

Maybe try some glasses like the Roka GP-1X or SL-1X. The lack of a top frame has helped me in prone.
Others really like the Decot Hy-Wyd glasses. They sit higher on the nose and don't block the scope image either. These can also be made with Rx lenses if needed. With plano lenses, just adjust the scope occular focus.

 

[howl]

Your glasses are made for best vision through the part of the lens you normally look through. That's not where you usually look when shooting a long gun. Getting the scope and cheekrest set so that you look through the sweet spot can lead to higher scope rings and an awkward head position. Awkward is not consistent.

You can have prescription shooting glasses made to move the sweet spot to where you look when shooting. You probably won't like them for general use. Contacts, if you dont need hard ones, are your best bet.

Also, shooting with your dominant eye makes everything work best. You can work around it as you have been, but you will never do as well.

Contacts. Switch shoulders.

 

[Ronws]

Or adjust the diopter so that subtensions are crystal clear. That is how I do it.

 

[308pirate]

My apologies if my message wasn't clear. I've learned to shoot a little; I've hit steel at 600 yards with a low end .223 Savage and a hand me down Millett. In my first competition I used a borrowed rifle with no dope, and hit steel at 426 yards while perched on a pallett set at 45 degrees.

Nothing spectacular. That's about my limit with what I currently know, given the classes I've been in. As Chris Way pointed out (https://www.snipershide.com/precision-rifle/mastering-the-basics/), mastering the basics is a life-long project. I know that I know very little, and comments like "Doesn’t really matter where it contacts as long as it is consistent" from @wpeach1912 and @Nik H's "Most people use 1.35" or 1.5" tall rings." help me take my understanding a little bit further.

That's my goal with this question; moving my understanding a step or two forward. Right now, using the optic is my weakest point in the process.

The guy who told you to take a training class was right on. And you're response (trying to justify why you dont) is pretty predictable.

Some people are untrainable and you're one of them. Keep on wasting your time without any grasp of the fundamentals "experimenting" on your own.

 

[Tictacticaltimmy]

The OP literally just did an Appleseed. Not sure why you are rushing to such a judgment.

 

[Leam]

The OP literally just did an Appleseed. Not sure why you are rushing to such a judgment.

Thank you, you are correct.

I felt @308pirate 's opinion was his (or hers) to express, but not really based on anything written so far. For that opinion to be correct, none of the instructors I've had were any good and I was consistantly hitting steel at 600 yards purely on raw talent. Anyone who has seen me shoot knows I have no talent, and the instructors I've had have all been top shelf. In the end, this is the internet; people express themselves.

The problem still exists, though several posts have given me good things to work on. I need to figure out how to set scope height and cheek height to allow for a consistant cheek weld, and I need to accomplish that in a way that angles my head such that I am looking through the center of my eyeglasses. Those things have to be done in a way that does not continue to cause pain in my lower back, which is a major blocker to focus.

The reason none of my instructors have been able to resolve this is that I haven't realized the issues until recently. I thought everyone hurt like heck when they went prone, and the concept of the scope being off is new to me. In non-Appleseed classes I could shoot prone and directly behind the rifle, and the eyebox was so small (old scope) that I had to get consistant to see anything at all. At the Appleseed, with time and position limitations, my prone scores were about 30% poorer than my standing or sitting scores. That strongly suggests it's not the hardware, but the trigger-monkey.

I have some tools to reduce the back pain over time, and hopefully I can get my neck flexible enough to get the right angle for centering the eye on the scope

 

[308pirate]

The OP literally just did an Appleseed. Not sure why you are rushing to such a judgment.

I know exactly what an Appleseed is. It is the absolute LAST thing you want to use as a learning experience to shoot a precision, scoped rifle.

Long before I became interested in shooting scoped precision rifles I competed for several years in NRA/CMP service rifle. That sport uses the techniques taught in Appleseed but at a much higher level. After reaching a Master classification in service rifle, and then finding out that half of the stuff I knew with regards to using sights and my body position was irrelevant when dealing with scoped rifles shot from a bipod, I feel qualified to judge the limits of what Appleseed teaches.

The Appleseed handgun training is an absolute joke, BTW.

Back to the OP, he can keep wasting time and money or he can seek focused training.

 

[Leam]

I know exactly what an Appleseed is. It is the absolute LAST thing you want to use as a learning experience to shoot a precision, scoped rifle.

Long before I became interested in shooting scoped precision rifles I competed for several years in NRA/CMP service rifle. That sport uses the techniques taught in Appleseed but at a much higher level. After reaching a Master classification in service rifle, and then finding out that half of the stuff I knew with regards to using sights and my body position was irrelevant when dealing with scoped rifles shot from a bipod, I feel qualified to judge the limits of what Appleseed teaches.

The Appleseed handgun training is an absolute joke, BTW.

Back to the OP, he can keep wasting time and money or he can seek focused training.

Congratulations on shooting your Master classification! I've been around long enough to know they don't give those things away, it takes dedicated effort over a long period of time.

My bet is that you came into scoped rifles with a lot of skills most folks need. Things like shooting from your natural point of aim, trigger control, and follow through. Things you cannot shoot a Master classification without, and the very things Appleseed teaches. Appleseed is about helping ordinary Americans become riflemen. And riflewomen! The "higher level" isn't about speciliazation for specific rules, but building people and community.

It is purely my opinion, but I see a difference between a Master classification and being an actual master. The classification is a measure of skill (94.00-96.99%), not transformation. I've trained with a lot of skilled people over time, and occasionally with an actual master. A skilled person can be proud of how good they are, but masters humbly understand how much thay have to learn.

I don't disagree with your statement about focused training. Understanding the problem well enough to express the focus area need to an instructor is the whole point of my question!

 

[Baron23]

when I look through the scope and eliminate shadow, I'm looking through the upper inner portion of my eye

Wait...you say that with your cheek on the comb (cheek piece..sigh), you are having to look UP and IN to see thru it with your dominant right eye. Correct.

If you have to look up to see the center of your ocular lens (the one at the back), Then you are too low. You can either raise your comb or get lower rings. Personally, I would go with raising the comb. How high are your rings.

As for glasses, as I said above...I ALWAYS wear eye pro as these are the only eyes I have an shit does indeed happen.

There are alternatives to bare eyes:

- If your vision can be corrected with the diopter adjustment of the ocular lens, then just get some good plano shooting glasses. They typically do not have frames that will interfere with your vision as would glasses for wearing normally.

- Another alternative is prescription shooting glasses...really shooting glasses like Randolf Engineering Rangers. But, they are quite expensive.

And any club I shoot at, eye pro is mandatory.

cheers and best of luck

 

[308pirate]

Understanding the problem well enough to express the focus area need to an instructor is the whole point of my question!

You just don't get it. Any instructor worth his salt will have the diagnostic tools to figure out what you need better than you can.

I'm out

 

[Tictacticaltimmy]

Others have already said this, but I would definitely experiment with a higher scope mount. Everyones head is shaped differently. If I am understanding your problem correctly, higher rings/mount should help.