Next level fudd

The last I heard the Failed Bureau of Investigation, in 1986 after the disasterous shootout, went to 10mm, because the bank robber was shot in the chest with their "then current" best 9mm ammo. The perpetrator was an ex-army ranger and he lasted 90 seconds, enabling him to kill several agents and wounded just about all of them... he had a rifle in 223 mini 14, I believe.
Then agents couldn't handle the 10 mm well, so next, the FBI went to the 40 S&W.
Agents were still missing the target, alot.

More hits in target were better than missing it completely. So back to the 9mm. I believe they use 147 gr Speer Gold Dot for the desired penetration, and more hits on targets for their agents.

For you girls, ...the 380 ACP gets a bunch more hits on target than 9mm,... hits are better than misses.

There are a lot of clowns in law enforcement, as the video shows.
That's why they send out the swat team if any gun play is expected, the suits don't want to get dirty, let alone shot at or killed, as it's a government career, for most, who never have to draw their duty weapon to deter a threat, in a lifetime of government service.

The 10mm had a couple problems…. Recoil was one of them, but cost and the S&W pistol were two of the others.

The move to the Glock and the 40 S&W (short/weak) made the G22 and G23 the standard pistols for a while. In about 2015, the SWAT program moved back to 9mm for the capacity and the terminal performance of the Speer G2.

The current duty round is the Hornady Critical Duty 135grn.
 
I like the 9mm in an AR 15 carbine much better than my 9mm handgun. Handloads produce over 700 ft / bs of energy, 33 rds, and 200 yds a 3/4 silhouette can be hit most every time. Mushrooms are violent, one inch 3 shot groups at 100yds are possible.
Highest velocity was 2640 fps with 50 gr copper. 115 gr 1720 fps 124 gr 1650, 155 fmi 1200 fps...
A rifle is "the tool" ...even in 9mm.
I would never take a pistol, as the primary weapon into a potential gunfight... pistols are emergency tools,... to fight your way to your rifle.
 

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I like the 9mm in an AR 15 carbine much better than my 9mm handgun. Handloads produce over 700 ft / bs of energy, 33 rds, and 200 yds a 3/4 silhouette can be hit most every time. Mushrooms are violent, one inch 3 shot groups at 100yds are possible.
Highest velocity was 2640 fps with 50 gr copper. 115 gr 1720 fps 124 gr 1650, 155 fmi 1200 fps...
A rifle is "the tool" ...even in 9mm.
I would never take a pistol, as the primary weapon into a potential gunfight... pistols are emergency tools,... to fight your way to your rifle.
Pistol caliber carbines are a joke in today’s world of body armor. Shoot 223. Penetrate armor. Create massive wounds.
 
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I’m not

But “he wouldn’t volunteer to get shot with x y a “ is a terrible argumental devixe

Be better

I always thought that was a stupid argument, about as dumb as it gets really. Gotta love the irony of this thread title, then dragging out one of the most common Fudd arguments to prove it... LOL

I won't volunteer to take a .22 to the chest either, doesn't mean it's a good carry round.

I wonder if anyone will volunteer to take a wire snipper to the nipple so we can find out if that's a good self defense tool? :ROFLMAO:
 
Pistol caliber carbines are a joke in today’s world of body armor. Shoot 223. Penetrate armor. Create massive wounds.
No one was discussing body armor!
The average street thug does not have a body armor vest. And you could easily tell, so ya shoot him in the head, more easily done with a pistol caliber rifle than a pistol.
But, if the street thug was prepared and had level IV body armor on... it would stop a (223)5.56 armor piercing round ...multiple times...so there's that. So much for your massive wound.
I would prefer the 5.56 AR for a fighting weapon over any handgun round. But it also has it's limitations.
The 6.8X 51mm, is a 80,000 psi hybrid cased military cartridge was designed to penetrate Russian body armor...where the existing small arms, 223 and 308 are failing. New body armor is being developed all the time...and the 223 has been failing to penetrate the better body armor, for quite some time...
 
All handgun cartridges suck at stopping people. ALL of them.

Learn how to hit the vitals rapidly.

Mo ammo is mo bettah.
100% why I went from 45 to 9mm. When I carried a 1911, I could do 3 extra magazines on my person. 25-33 rounds.

P09 with 3 extra mags was 79 rounds. (21+1 in gun, 3 spare 19 rounders)
 
No one was discussing body armor!
The average street thug does not have a body armor vest. And you could easily tell, so ya shoot him in the head, more easily done with a pistol caliber rifle than a pistol.
But, if the street thug was prepared and had level IV body armor on... it would stop a (223)5.56 armor piercing round ...multiple times...so there's that. So much for your massive wound.
I would prefer the 5.56 AR for a fighting weapon over any handgun round. But it also has it's limitations.
The 6.8X 51mm, is a 80,000 psi hybrid cased military cartridge was designed to penetrate Russian body armor...where the existing small arms, 223 and 308 are failing. New body armor is being developed all the time...and the 223 has been failing to penetrate the better body armor, for quite some time...
Pelvic girdle.
We want them to have time to think about what they started....
 
No one was discussing body armor!
The average street thug does not have a body armor vest. And you could easily tell, so ya shoot him in the head, more easily done with a pistol caliber rifle than a pistol.
But, if the street thug was prepared and had level IV body armor on... it would stop a (223)5.56 armor piercing round ...multiple times...so there's that. So much for your massive wound.
I would prefer the 5.56 AR for a fighting weapon over any handgun round. But it also has it's limitations.
The 6.8X 51mm, is a 80,000 psi hybrid cased military cartridge was designed to penetrate Russian body armor...where the existing small arms, 223 and 308 are failing. New body armor is being developed all the time...and the 223 has been failing to penetrate the better body armor, for quite some time...

LOL
 
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I always thought that was a stupid argument, about as dumb as it gets really. Gotta love the irony of this thread title, then dragging out one of the most common Fudd arguments to prove it... LOL

I won't volunteer to take a .22 to the chest either, doesn't mean it's a good carry round.

It's a stupid argument when reduced to the absurd like you just did. Otherwise, it's very compelling.
 
All handgun cartridges suck at stopping people. ALL of them.

Learn how to hit the vitals rapidly.

Mo ammo is mo bettah.
I read this in hunting discussions often.

Pissing matches about “knock down” of a certain caliber.

All the experienced guys I know seem to agree that shot placement trumps caliber 9/10 times.
 
I read this in hunting discussions often.

Pissing matches about “knock down” of a certain caliber.

All the experienced guys I know seem to agree that shot placement trumps caliber 9/10 times.
That and bullet design. I've gotten into more than a couple arguments with people when I try to explain to them that 55gr Vmax out of an AR is a fantastic deer cartridge. DRT pretty much every time.

But nooooo 5.56 is a varmint round! Nevermind the fact that the retards spouting that it's not powerful enough for deer typically outweigh a deer by 2 to 3 times and 5.56 will kill them just fine lmao.
 
I hate the 9 versus 40 versus 45 debate

These days they all work as well as the other for defense purposes which is fair because pistols suck. In 1980’s 9mm bullets sucked so 40 was born. Now 9mm bullets are good and the darn things kick ass

The whole debate on which pistol is just as dumb. When I was doing SWAT the 1911 was king because it had the best trigger and was easiest to shoot head shots quickly at ten yards or so. The 2011 in 9mm is just the natural transition from single stack 1911. Cost of these is way high compared to the typical Glock and the Glock works great so folks Glocks are the norm now

Pistols are good because you can’t conceal a rifle in shorts. Pistols are also better than hands in very close quarters and easier to maneuver than a rifle in very close quarters.

Once you get to normal open areas or much past arms reach a carbine is the way to go

As to 9mm carbines. I carried MP5 for awhile on SWAT. Loved it but once I got ahold of 5.56 SBR I switched and never looked back. 9mm gives up too much to the 5.56 for all around use
 
That and bullet design. I've gotten into more than a couple arguments with people when I try to explain to them that 55gr Vmax out of an AR is a fantastic deer cartridge. DRT pretty much every time.

But nooooo 5.56 is a varmint round! Nevermind the fact that the retards spouting that it's not powerful enough for deer typically outweigh a deer by 2 to 3 times and 5.56 will kill them just fine lmao.
Im sure lack of experience adds to that. Many states have caliber restrictions that encourage this.

A buddy of mine is a "life-long hunter" and cant explain a single thing about ammo selection when he coyote hunts, he literally just grabs whatever his other friend tells him to use. I was telling him about 6 arc, and his first response was "thats not a coyote round"....so I asked him to define a "coyote round". Shocking. No answer.

If I ever want to see fuddery front and center, I go to my club's "open sight in days". For some reason, the hunting hobby seems to be full of people who refuse to do any of their own research, in favor of just repeating stupid shit others have said to them.

You want to get flagged by a barrel 10x before you sit down? Thats the place to do it.

You want to encounter guys who have no clue how to sight a rifle in after YEARS of owning one? also likely.

I figure in many ways it will self-eliminate. Most of these guys will go deaf since they're too manly to hunt with ear pro, and eventually the hobby will hopefully level out with more intelligent participants.

Half the people in my state cant shut the fuck up about wolves "Destroying" the deer population every other year here, yet cant even tell you the difference between a coyote and wolf, or identify one or the other, if their life depended on it.

They dont know shit about environmental carrying capacity, land management, what a deer eats, how freeze cycle affect fawn mortality, but they sure do love to bitch about wolves, 7 days a week and twice on sundays.
 
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That and bullet design. I've gotten into more than a couple arguments with people when I try to explain to them that 55gr Vmax out of an AR is a fantastic deer cartridge. DRT pretty much every time.

But nooooo 5.56 is a varmint round! Nevermind the fact that the retards spouting that it's not powerful enough for deer typically outweigh a deer by 2 to 3 times and 5.56 will kill them just fine lmao.
Thats interesting to me, compared to my 170 grain 350 legend hornady white tail round..that 55 grain VMAX has an additional 1,000 FPS of velocity at 200 yards, and only 118 Ft lbs less of energy at that same distance. Im willing to bet it takes a deer just fine. If we could hunt with that round here, I would.
 
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Yeah, well, I didn't ask your fucking opinion, and I'm not open to suggestions. Lots of people appreciate the no-BS videos without a bunch of talking and shilling, that aren't 20 minutes of product deep-throating, or retarded behavior and clickbait titles just to get more clicks and views.
Have you gotten positive reviews of your truck sitting in the parking lot at the end of each one?
 
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Have you gotten positive reviews of your truck sitting in the parking lot at the end of each one?
Yes, and that's not a parking lot... That's actually an airport runway that my former firm did the engineering and design for, and it was a FAA project I oversaw the daily on-site engineering ops from beginning to end. Occasionally I drove my personal vehicle there.
 
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So, "Dick" says that 9mm is a "good round," but that it does not match the performance of .45acp. He does say that 9mm will penetrate deeper, but if you compare 9mm to .45acp of "similar technology," then .45acp will make bigger holes, likely require less rounds shot to stop a threat and will go through barriers such as Windshields better than 9mm.
I once had the privilege of taking a class with a retired CAG guy. During a break I asked him about handgun caliber preferences. His response was something along the lines of, "I've found it doesn't really matter, if you shoot them in the face."
 
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That's next level pussy right there
I was a cop for 25 years but things were different from 1980-2005. They no longer want to pay cops well and they treat them like shit It’s hard to get great people to be cops these days so some cops are bound to be shit. Lots of great guys as cops these days but unfortunately the turd level is high also
 
I've never understood the "would you want to get shot with ____ caliber?" argument. I understand that it can get brought down to absurdity quickly with arguments on either side. However, I for one know that the moment I see a firearm being presented towards me - I could give a shit less what caliber it is...I don't want to be shot by it. I'm not going to get a flash of a Beretta 21A and steel my nerves because I know it is probably a .22.

We aren't going to present arms towards each other in conflict and enter a debate about who is going to win because someone has a 'more powerful' cartridge. That is Chinese Kung-Fu movie-level garbage where they argue over whose Wushu or animal style is better before they fight.

Carry a firearm you can manipulate blindfolded under stress and can hit what you want to hit with. If that means you are having to carry a G34, 1911, 2011, etc..., etc... so be it. I love my 1911s, but I can hit better and faster with my M&Ps (plus I have double the capacity). Same goes for whatever cartridge you can shoot well. Screw what some random internet stranger who practices reloads naked in front of a mirror while listening to David Bowie thinks.
 
Thats interesting to me, compared to my 170 grain 350 legend hornady white tail round..that 55 grain VMAX has an additional 1,000 FPS of velocity at 200 yards, and only 118 Ft lbs less of energy at that same distance. Im willing to bet it takes a deer just fine. If we could hunt with that round here, I would.
A friend hunted deer with 223 with 55 grain soft points for many years. He had great success. He could shoot well though
 
I was a cop for 25 years but things were different from 1980-2005. They no longer want to pay cops well and they treat them like shit It’s hard to get great people to be cops these days so some cops are bound to be shit. Lots of great guys as cops these days but unfortunately the turd level is high also
In some areas they’ve never paid cops well.

A few years ago Detroit police was still pretty close to $14/hr. I think they’re closer to 35k annually now…which is still close to poverty pay, with inflation.
 
Yes, and that's not a parking lot... That's actually an airport runway that my former firm did the engineering and design for, and it was a FAA project I oversaw the daily on-site engineering ops from beginning to end. Occasionally I drove my personal vehicle there.

Soo... It was an FAA design build and you were doing engineering on site? Or you were the construction superintendent? Or you're an engineer? What are engineering ops?
 
You know what I really don't need?

Somebody telling me what I do or don't need.

Going back to "shot in the chest".... What about shot in the thigh? Femoral artery wounds are almost always mortal wounds.

And body armor defeating rounds? Why aren't we targeting center of groin in that case? Arterial routing through there, lots of room around there, gut shot wound or down into the femurs. Instant mobility loss at the least,... Just thinking out loud
 
Are you looking back from the other end of that tunnel ?
Oh yeah. I am a super Fudd for having a light on a gun I use day and night. Seriously though I couldn't care less how somebody uses their gear. That is the antithesis of tunnel bias. I'd talk more but I've decided to start a you tube channel and tell everybody how to use their stuff like i use mine because that's the only way.:LOL:
 
That and bullet design. I've gotten into more than a couple arguments with people when I try to explain to them that 55gr Vmax out of an AR is a fantastic deer cartridge. DRT pretty much every time.

But nooooo 5.56 is a varmint round! Nevermind the fact that the retards spouting that it's not powerful enough for deer typically outweigh a deer by 2 to 3 times and 5.56 will kill them just fine lmao.
They use weatherby super magnums for 120 pound white tail

Have a flinch so bad they hit anywhere but the vitals.
 
I beg to differ. I can barely find pants that fit around here. Seems the minimum waist size is a 35. That would suggest a rather generous groin target area. Maybe a tiny cock and balls, but I’m not passing judgment…

If they're wearing above size 35, you dont even need to shoot them, just get them to run more than a 1/4 mile. The cardiac arrest will solve the issue.
 
So, I’m going to swerve away from the crowd for just a second. I’m also going to constrain the following to concealed or everyday carry. You do you with you home defense situation.

Let me preface this with, I have a red dot on my carry gun. And, it is light capable, though I haven’t bought one for it yet.

That out of the way; given the constraints that ol’ Hackathorn put on the discussion- which was something like 10 feet- a red dot isn’t faster than irons. Hell, that’s basically hold the gun out and fire range.

As to the light. Once long ago, I ran into a work situation where I needed a flashlight while talking on the phone with our tech support (which prevented me using the phone light). I now EDC a small flashlight. I have not used that light in an EDC situation. I have used that light, but never has it “saved the day” because it was in my pocket at just the right time. Additionally, outside of navigating to or from a hunting spot, or sweeping the back yard to find our dog, I can’t ever really remember needing additional light to see.

Where I am going with this is, our everyday life is typically so lit up (sunlight, streetlights, room lights, electric signs, etc) that we are rarely (practically never) in a situation with too little light to see- at least when not jumping out of bed because of a “knock in the night.” When was the last time you were out and about doing your everyday thing and thought “wow, I could really use a flashlight?” Outside of a theater, probably never.

Combine almost never need a flashlight with almost never need a pistol and you almost never need a pistol with a light.

A red dot makes a pistol a bit more difficult to conceal. A light makes a pistol more difficult to conceal. Yes, yes, I know you are all concealing HK Mk23s with D cell mag lights hose-clamped to them. But the fact remains that a pistol with a dot and a light is both bigger and heavier, requiring a physically larger holster, than a pistol without.

So, from a very reductionist perspective- almost never need a pistol, almost never need a light, almost never need the sights- ol’ Hackathorn may have an argument.

Now, am I going to pull the dot off my pistol? Nope. Am I going to stop shopping for a light? Nope. Am I saying you should remove the dot and/or light from your pistol. Nope.

But, you’re probably never going to need it.😏
 
So, I’m going to swerve away from the crowd for just a second. I’m also going to constrain the following to concealed or everyday carry. You do you with you home defense situation.

Let me preface this with, I have a red dot on my carry gun. And, it is light capable, though I haven’t bought one for it yet.

That out of the way; given the constraints that ol’ Hackathorn put on the discussion- which was something like 10 feet- a red dot isn’t faster than irons. Hell, that’s basically hold the gun out and fire range.

As to the light. Once long ago, I ran into a work situation where I needed a flashlight while talking on the phone with our tech support (which prevented me using the phone light). I now EDC a small flashlight. I have not used that light in an EDC situation. I have used that light, but never has it “saved the day” because it was in my pocket at just the right time. Additionally, outside of navigating to or from a hunting spot, or sweeping the back yard to find our dog, I can’t ever really remember needing additional light to see.

Where I am going with this is, our everyday life is typically so lit up (sunlight, streetlights, room lights, electric signs, etc) that we are rarely (practically never) in a situation with too little light to see- at least when not jumping out of bed because of a “knock in the night.” When was the last time you were out and about doing your everyday thing and thought “wow, I could really use a flashlight?” Outside of a theater, probably never.

Combine almost never need a flashlight with almost never need a pistol and you almost never need a pistol with a light.

A red dot makes a pistol a bit more difficult to conceal. A light makes a pistol more difficult to conceal. Yes, yes, I know you are all concealing HK Mk23s with D cell mag lights hose-clamped to them. But the fact remains that a pistol with a dot and a light is both bigger and heavier, requiring a physically larger holster, than a pistol without.

So, from a very reductionist perspective- almost never need a pistol, almost never need a light, almost never need the sights- ol’ Hackathorn may have an argument.

Now, am I going to pull the dot off my pistol? Nope. Am I going to stop shopping for a light? Nope. Am I saying you should remove the dot and/or light from your pistol. Nope.

But, you’re probably never going to need it.😏
I’m of the same mindset for multiple reasons.

1. My primary and most important reason: I want my carry gun to be as small and compact as possible, short of affecting accuracy in a short range. Adding more accessories also adds extra snag points.

2. If you need to identify someone or something first, a flashlight mounted under the muzzle is ass backwards..ie pointing a gun at your child, after they snuck back in the house late night sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.

3. It reminds me of the guys who carry multiple mags with their concealed gun, thinking they’re going to get into a 30+ round gun fight in a self defense shooting..the odds of that happening, based on all the data we have on self defense encounters, are pretty much as close to zero as you can get.

4. If you’re going to be shooting it out in the dark, to the point of really needing a WML, you’re likely already at a point where you can’t identify what’s beyond your intended target…so missing is pretty good odds of hitting someone/something you weren’t intending to shoot in the first place. And breaking a cardinal rule of the 4 rules of firearm safety.

the red dot thing goes back to number 1 for me, and I have astigmatism so it’s pointless regardless, so it’s an easy enough choice.
 
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So, I’m going to swerve away from the crowd for just a second. I’m also going to constrain the following to concealed or everyday carry. You do you with you home defense situation.

Let me preface this with, I have a red dot on my carry gun. And, it is light capable, though I haven’t bought one for it yet.

That out of the way; given the constraints that ol’ Hackathorn put on the discussion- which was something like 10 feet- a red dot isn’t faster than irons. Hell, that’s basically hold the gun out and fire range.

As to the light. Once long ago, I ran into a work situation where I needed a flashlight while talking on the phone with our tech support (which prevented me using the phone light). I now EDC a small flashlight. I have not used that light in an EDC situation. I have used that light, but never has it “saved the day” because it was in my pocket at just the right time. Additionally, outside of navigating to or from a hunting spot, or sweeping the back yard to find our dog, I can’t ever really remember needing additional light to see.

Where I am going with this is, our everyday life is typically so lit up (sunlight, streetlights, room lights, electric signs, etc) that we are rarely (practically never) in a situation with too little light to see- at least when not jumping out of bed because of a “knock in the night.” When was the last time you were out and about doing your everyday thing and thought “wow, I could really use a flashlight?” Outside of a theater, probably never.

Combine almost never need a flashlight with almost never need a pistol and you almost never need a pistol with a light.

A red dot makes a pistol a bit more difficult to conceal. A light makes a pistol more difficult to conceal. Yes, yes, I know you are all concealing HK Mk23s with D cell mag lights hose-clamped to them. But the fact remains that a pistol with a dot and a light is both bigger and heavier, requiring a physically larger holster, than a pistol without.

So, from a very reductionist perspective- almost never need a pistol, almost never need a light, almost never need the sights- ol’ Hackathorn may have an argument.

Now, am I going to pull the dot off my pistol? Nope. Am I going to stop shopping for a light? Nope. Am I saying you should remove the dot and/or light from your pistol. Nope.

But, you’re probably never going to need it.😏
I carry a Fenix PD25 flashlight in my pocket that has four levels of illumination, up to 550 or so, and use it almost every single day. I've reached the age where it definitely helps me find stuff in dim light, or even just under a table or in a cabinet.

So to say that a flashlight is almost never used is total bullshit, at least for me. I can imagine I'm not alone in this.

Not everyone has eyesight like a cat, and can see in low light.
 
My S&W M&P M2.0 in 9 mm has just the iron sights. I have not needed a red dot. I wear it an OWB under an oversized angler shirt and a t-shirt underneath. That is already difficult to "conceal." It is the full size with the 4.25" barrel and a 17 rd double stack mag. And I have another 2 loaded mags never far from me.

Most gun fights involve 5 rounds or less. Unless in defense against an acorn, in which case, you simply have to mag dump.

But I still believe in the quote in my footer.

During the mostly peaceful protests, I carried another 100 rounds in my man purse. And in a plain black bag with pockets, I had my M4 A3 (5.56) with 30 round mags. 1 in, 1 round in the pipe, safety on. 5 more loaded mags in the bag. Iron sights with a confirmed combat zero.

Fortunately, I did not need either one but, all else fails, I was going to get home. Then, again, I did not go out looking for trouble. I actually work at a job. And otherwise, I was flying up the Rayburn Tollway at .8 Mach. Though, there are people passing me left and right.

I say, use whatever works for you that also gives you confidence in your operation of the weapon.