If I worked at Burger King I suppose you would be one of those guys that would tell me how to make your sandwich.
Just because you don't understand what I am saying doesn't mean that my comment is useless.
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Suppressors NFA Gun Trust in 10mins.. NO WAITING PRINTS OUT INSTANTLY!!
- Thread starter cheshier2
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Just because you don't understand what I am saying doesn't mean that my comment is useless.
So I take it you're not a sandwich artist. Are you a lawyer? If so what are the true benefits of face to face vs an online trust?
As I see it now, the only benefit is peace of mind due to a lot of misinformation. I not looking for an "E" fight, I'm just looking for real answers as I'm on the fence.
NFA Gun Trust in 10mins.. NO WAITING PRINTS OUT INSTANTLY!!
Yes, I am a lawyer. I don't give legal advice on the Internet. And free advice is worth what you pay for it.
I had another lawyer, one who knows trusts and the NFA, draft my trust. Then I reviewed it to make sure that the trust complied with the laws of my home state because I know how to do that.
And it didn't cost me any more money than I would have spent, and could have spent, by paying some salesman for a package of forms and screwing it up all by myself.
Yes, I am a lawyer. I don't give legal advice on the Internet. And free advice is worth what you pay for it.
I had another lawyer, one who knows trusts and the NFA, draft my trust. Then I reviewed it to make sure that the trust complied with the laws of my home state because I know how to do that.
And it didn't cost me any more money than I would have spent, and could have spent, by paying some salesman for a package of forms and screwing it up all by myself.
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I'm assuming you own a home or have owned a home? You didn't use the standard state BOR form? You hired an attorney to draw up a special contract for your home purchase? Don't get me wrong, some people do, but the majority of Americans don't.
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NFA Gun Trust in 10mins.. NO WAITING PRINTS OUT INSTANTLY!!
I don't use the mistakes of a majority as a guide for my own behavior. Likewise, I don't ask my realtor for legal advice and I don't list properties for sale with my attorney.
Here is the problem. If something is wrong . . for whatever reason . . . . who do you call?
If I do your trust, you call me.
I have fixed a few quicken trusts. No dogs were shot . . .No doors kicked in. . . Letter denying transfer was received and I fixed the trust.
Quicken didn't answer their questions.
I have several friends who have successfully put trusts together with quicken.
So you pay your money and make your choice.
It is a free country and you must decide what level of support you want.
Like Graham was alluding to, some real estate deals have been done on napkins.
Some do it yourself real estate deals have fallen apart into litigation du to problems with the drafting of the contract.
Texas,
Damn right.
And plenty of transactions have become ridiculously more expensive just because of a single word or phrase. But as others have said, it's your decision, and nothing I say or type ever on this forum is legal advice.
I don't know what your forms say, but the common forms here in New Mexico would allow a seller to sue me up one side and down the other if I default on my home sale contract.
Every residential realtor I know would and has told me that default means I lose my earnest money and that's it. That may even be the general understanding in the business; I don't know because I never bought a house before.
Their form says otherwise.
You think I used their stupid form or talked to a real estate transactional lawyer before I made my offer? I'll allow you to figure out the answer to that one.
Note that I didn't say that I looked up the law myself and advised myself of anything, and I AM a lawyer. I'm not MY OWN lawyer, because, among other things, I can't sue myself for my own malpractice, even if I claim to be having an out of body experience.
Damn right.
And plenty of transactions have become ridiculously more expensive just because of a single word or phrase. But as others have said, it's your decision, and nothing I say or type ever on this forum is legal advice.
I don't know what your forms say, but the common forms here in New Mexico would allow a seller to sue me up one side and down the other if I default on my home sale contract.
Every residential realtor I know would and has told me that default means I lose my earnest money and that's it. That may even be the general understanding in the business; I don't know because I never bought a house before.
Their form says otherwise.
You think I used their stupid form or talked to a real estate transactional lawyer before I made my offer? I'll allow you to figure out the answer to that one.
Note that I didn't say that I looked up the law myself and advised myself of anything, and I AM a lawyer. I'm not MY OWN lawyer, because, among other things, I can't sue myself for my own malpractice, even if I claim to be having an out of body experience.
Yes, I guess there are but they are rare? They were primarily with Quicken and Legal Zoom. One I heard about settled with the guy losing his firearms rights but no jail time. I read it online so the info is only as good as the source. It does imply that for every one you know of that is faulty (they got in trouble) there are hundreds that still are under the radar. ATF, if not mistaken, recommends not to use online trusts. Forgot where I read that too. It's been years since I got my trust.
They said that what happens is that ATF will okay faulty trusts as they don't have the time to look at all of it. I guess you'd be okay if they did catch errors or were responsible for missing them. One clerical error can render it null and void. So what happens is ATF okays the deal, you get the can. Everything is fine until one day for whatever reason it ends up in police hands and/or you have to go to court over it. THAT will be the FIRST time it's ever read completely by someone that knows what they are looking at, and guess whose fault it always is? Hope that one person isn't the prosecutor trying to nail your ass.
Say you loan it to a felon for the weekend. You can do that with your trust you know. It exempts you from wrongdoing in the event you are lied to by a friend and you make him a beneficiary. He can get busted, thrown in jail, and now you have to go get your can back. They'll give it back to you no problem --provided the paper it's on is good. If not, you not only are in possession of an illegal NFA item, you also transferred it.
Chances are you will be fine. But those are chances. If your trust is faulty, you are in possession of an illegal NFA device, period, whether you get caught or not. That's a chance too.
That's the only reason to go to a lawyer. Peace of mind. $200-$250 will get you the regular trust, one a bit more high speed like mine for $500 and a full estate plan for $1000 from my lawyer. He'll also call me when this Obama shit settles and we know what we are dealing with, as well as answer random questions.
Do you REALLY want to bitch and whine over the cost of fucking tax stamp? Really, all considered? Funny, some of you wouldn't get within a mile of a non-registered drop in auto sear, but have no problem using a trust you don't understand yourself. Go figure.
I've chimed in here before, but just for the sake of the fence sitters. Some of these online trust guys have their minds made up already and are simply looking for justification from others. They also don't want to consider the fact they may be sitting on illegal items, and so they champion their bad decisions "sticking their heads in the sand" as it were. I have a buddy this way, love him to death but I can't tell him a goddamn thing.
Unless you fully have 100% trust in this online trust shit, you need to go to a lawyer that specializes in NFA trusts. What surprised me is that regular estate lawyers won't even touch these --they claim they don't know enough about the specialized law to do it.
I went on this website and set up my trust it's the easiest thing to do it literally only took about 10 min. Start to finish Very easy and would recommend if anybody is wanting to start a trust.
Thanks
Thanks
It’s possible that not all online trusts are equal, I ordered my trust from guntrustlawyer;
Blog: NFA Gun Trust Lawyer Blog :: Published by Florida Gun Trust Lawyer David Goldman
Trusts: Gun Trust: Create a NFA Trust online Sale price $199
Their claim;
Our Gun Trusts have been reviewed and modified by more than 100 Estate planning and/or Firearms law lawyers who are licensed in more than 43 states.
Perhaps the lawyer members could weigh in regarding David M. Goldman’s guntrustlawyer?
Thanks.
Blog: NFA Gun Trust Lawyer Blog :: Published by Florida Gun Trust Lawyer David Goldman
Trusts: Gun Trust: Create a NFA Trust online Sale price $199
Their claim;
Our Gun Trusts have been reviewed and modified by more than 100 Estate planning and/or Firearms law lawyers who are licensed in more than 43 states.
Perhaps the lawyer members could weigh in regarding David M. Goldman’s guntrustlawyer?
Thanks.
Oh ok well if it don't work I guess I'm out 239$ but as soon as it does I'll post on here and let u know that it's good to go.
I got the best of both worlds with my trust. A real lawyer. Free consultation. $200 flat fee. Free updates/amendments to meet any BATF requirements.
Really fast turnaround. We handled it all via email.
Hardest part was getting co-trustee's all at a notary at the same time.
Really fast turnaround. We handled it all via email.
Hardest part was getting co-trustee's all at a notary at the same time.
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I guarantee your form 4's or form 1's will be approved on this trust.
Just received 2 approved form 4's back today using this trust, and 5 last week..
My lawyer does NFA trust for 200 bucks. After I got all my information to him, he wrote it up and I got to sit down and have him answer every question I could think of. If I have a question later on, I can call him. 239 for a copy and paste trust that you don't even know is compliant or will cover you completely is almost laughable. If you can afford a can, you can afford to do it right.
Do co trustees have to be present for signing at same time? What if you want to add a trustee at a later date?
This trust comes with amendment pages. Fill out the amendment page have it notarized, and change the schedule you added the trustee to. It will take you longer to drive to the notary.. This is explained in the trust instructions that print out when you use this trust...
Black brush you are getting legal advise from a salesman. You have legal questions, ask a lawyer. If you want to find a cheap lawyer to do it, just call local shops that sell cans and ask for a reference. That is how I found my guy, and I'm beyond happy I did!!! I added the exclamation points at the end so I could be cool like super trust sales man.
My lawyer provided one notary spot for all trustee's so we all had to sign at the same time. He also offered to make separate notary locations for each trustee, but it wasn't necessary.
He will also make some changes for free, or discuss fee for anything that requires anything more than minimal time.
This.
I'm wary of anyone trying to sell something with double exclamation marks.
If it's a good product it doesn't need any hype.
I call bullshit on the dude stating that quicken trust aren't going to be accepted, a trust is a trust.....its a legal document.
Im so glad I married a lawyer, so I can ask and get answers quickly, no matter if its a 600$ payment to a "gun trust lawyer" who has his little bitch paralegal draw up a stack of papers with a bunch of shit you likely wont understand, or a guy who pays 30$ for a quicken trust, if its legally signed and notarized its a legal document and its own entity. So you guys keep throwing down big money for those trusts, it keeps lawyers in business and boosts the economy, me ill just continue getting tax stamps with a trust that cost me 30$, and if some how the ATF comes after me for legal obtaining the tax stamp on my paperwork (that they gave me) how the fuck I end up going to jail for that I don't know, they gave me the stamps, how can I get in trouble for something I didn't even do? keep on fear mongering you keep up the bullshittin.
I hope you're right. But to me, the $200 I spent for a real lawyer, is cheap insurance against something going wrong.
Insurance that my butthole won't have to learn a lesson the hard way.
Insurance that my butthole won't have to learn a lesson the hard way.
Like FISTER 13F said
"if some how the ATF comes after me for legal obtaining the tax stamp on my paperwork (that they gave me) how the fuck I end up going to jail for that I don't know, they gave me the stamps, how can I get in trouble for something I didn't even do? keep on fear mongering you keep up the bullshittin."
"if some how the ATF comes after me for legal obtaining the tax stamp on my paperwork (that they gave me) how the fuck I end up going to jail for that I don't know, they gave me the stamps, how can I get in trouble for something I didn't even do? keep on fear mongering you keep up the bullshittin."
I know it has been proffered on here that an NFA Trust is nothing more than a scare tactic for Lawyers to make money, but I can give you an example that may make you rethink it.
I am a Certified Estate Planer. We have created, though our office, over 400 Revocable Living Trusts aka Family Trusts. I certainty have the resources and expertise to create a Trust. When I decided I wanted a NFA Trust, I wanted to know more about the particularities that are unique to NFA Trusts, so I consulted with more than one attorney. After said consultations, I decided to pay an attorney to create one for me. Please realize that I have a template to create a Trust for FREE residing on my office server.
The purpose of a garden variety Revocable Trust, as he type from Quicken Will Maker Trust, is to avoid probate. As such, if you follow the instructions and re-title your assets into the Trust, it will most likely accomplish that. However, many of these generic or downloadable Trusts, when viewed through lens of, "are they a good planning documents?" (which is my perspective on what a Revocable Trust should be), without getting into the granular details, are severely lacking in many areas. I would add that the Quicken Will Maker Trust is barely adequate, at best, as Revocable Family Trust. As a NFA Trust, I think it is woefully inadequate.
Feel free to disagree with me. Feel free to call me stupid for falling into the trap of seeking legal advise when i had the wherewithal and resources to do it on my own. Feel free to think that you have been severely overcharged for my free advice
. I truly do not have a dog in this fight (but I am going to put on my flame suit in anticipation of the responses ).
I do wish to caution that those who think that just because their form 4 is approved, it does not mean that their Trust contains the provisions that will protect them and their families when needed.
I did get this link off of an attorney's website. While he is in the business of selling NFA Trusts (I have ZERO affiliation with him in any way) and I am sure that there are those who will take the cynical view of this, I do think this is worth considering.
BATFE and Seizure From Invalid NFA Trust - NFA Gun Trust Lawyer Blog
I am not trying to start a fight, just thought I'd offer a different perspective on a subject that I actually have some education and experience.
I am a Certified Estate Planer. We have created, though our office, over 400 Revocable Living Trusts aka Family Trusts. I certainty have the resources and expertise to create a Trust. When I decided I wanted a NFA Trust, I wanted to know more about the particularities that are unique to NFA Trusts, so I consulted with more than one attorney. After said consultations, I decided to pay an attorney to create one for me. Please realize that I have a template to create a Trust for FREE residing on my office server.
The purpose of a garden variety Revocable Trust, as he type from Quicken Will Maker Trust, is to avoid probate. As such, if you follow the instructions and re-title your assets into the Trust, it will most likely accomplish that. However, many of these generic or downloadable Trusts, when viewed through lens of, "are they a good planning documents?" (which is my perspective on what a Revocable Trust should be), without getting into the granular details, are severely lacking in many areas. I would add that the Quicken Will Maker Trust is barely adequate, at best, as Revocable Family Trust. As a NFA Trust, I think it is woefully inadequate.
Feel free to disagree with me. Feel free to call me stupid for falling into the trap of seeking legal advise when i had the wherewithal and resources to do it on my own. Feel free to think that you have been severely overcharged for my free advice
. I truly do not have a dog in this fight (but I am going to put on my flame suit in anticipation of the responses ). I do wish to caution that those who think that just because their form 4 is approved, it does not mean that their Trust contains the provisions that will protect them and their families when needed.
I did get this link off of an attorney's website. While he is in the business of selling NFA Trusts (I have ZERO affiliation with him in any way) and I am sure that there are those who will take the cynical view of this, I do think this is worth considering.
BATFE and Seizure From Invalid NFA Trust - NFA Gun Trust Lawyer Blog
I am not trying to start a fight, just thought I'd offer a different perspective on a subject that I actually have some education and experience.
i got a free membership to rocket lawyer and did mine for free. a trust is a trust i doubt the nfa is kicking back any trusts based only on the template used. i am cheap, but resourceful so i found a way to make mine for free with no lawyer, but with a template used and made by a lawyer for free. i also get emails from them with common sense legal advise. all for free.
I feel confident that you are correct that the ATF is not kicking back Trusts based on the template used. I also agree that you will most likely get your form 4 approved. But, in my humble opinion (I can not overstate this), I assure you that not all Trusts are created equal. NFA Trusts are very specialized and properly drafted ones will contain certain provisions that will keep you and your family out of trouble should the need / time arise.
I think those provisions are worth paying for.
Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer nor am I associated with one. My opinion is not and should not be construed as legal advice.
keep me out of trouble. i am pretty sure if something is wrong they just kick it back. they do not send you to Guantanamo. NFA trusts are revokable trusts. not some magical new document created to get machine guns and silencers. it is the same kind of trust you would put all your assets in and have your child be the benefactor of when you die. think what you want. do what you want. spend your money where you want. do your research first though. i would like to see one of these expensive trusts to see where it may differ from mine. because my research told me it was all standard revokable trust forms.
Pretty sure? Wouldn't you rather be positive? While you may not be in Guantanamo, doing it wrong may land you in federal prison.
I assure you NFA Trust ARE new documents (not magical) created specifically to get machine guns and silencers (NFA Items). That is what they are by definition. Taking a "standard" (whatever that is) Revocable Living Trust (which are not new documents) and expecting it to have the provisions and language specific to NFA items is naive on good day (foolish on a bad day, maybe even criminal on the worse day). You can't bring home a lion and expect it to behave like a rabbit.
I do understand we both did research and yours told you it was all standard. I am not sure if your research involved poking around on the internet for 5 min, 10 min or an hour but I can't imagine it involved legal advice from a qualified professional who does this all day every day.
I am not trying to argue with you, create controversy or make you or anyone else look foolish, but I do deal with Trusts every day, I am educated as an Estate Planner and I did consult with more than one legal professional and my research told me that I should get (purchase?) a NFA specific Trust.
I do not know if $200 to $500 is expensive for a good NFA Trust, but if you actually had one with the proper provisions, you would see there is a major difference in language and provisions (but I am sure your research told you this). To stick with the same analogy, it is like the difference between a lion and a rabbit.
Again, my info may be worth exactly what I am being paid to give it, but I'd shutter to think that someone who is uninformed and was poking around on the internet, read the above posts and took some statements as fact and wound up in trouble as a result. I just feel there ought to be a different view of the debate presented.
so what you are saying is. i do not know if you are wright or wrong and i do not want to argue. but am going to keep quoting you and telling you you are an idiot and do not know how to do research. i think you are selling something too. it sounds a-lot like bs. sounds like your research was done of the first page of lawyers webste that sells "NFA TRUST". just like the guy who started this thread sells them. do some real research. if you do not want to. then you can pay someone to do it for you. but do not always believe the salesman's pitch. if you actually did your research you would know what special provisions you need to put in. for some people there are none because they are not concerned about passing on a suppressor and intend to destroy it before death. special tax provisions are not as important with 1000 dollar suppressor like a 20000 dollar machine gun. oh no wally i asked a lawyer and he told me i better pay him to do it. here is a good thread about the pros and cons of each way.The Difference Between Form Trusts and Lawyer-Drafted Gun Trusts - The Firing Line Forums
i assure you i am especially offended when someone quotes me breaks down what i said argues with it makes a bad analogy and ses i do not want to argue. if you want to argue grow some balls and do it. but your thread is in no way constructive just parroting what every nfa trust lawyer ses.
Umm, yeah...because everyone knows when they are going to die and have plenty of time to get things in order before that happens...ha
yes most people come to a point in their life when they start making end of life arrangements.
I am not selling anything. I think the thread on the Firing Line Forum is very informative. Good job on finding /posting that even though, my best guess, you did not agree with the conclusion.
that would be for you and your family to decide. or then you could find an nfa lawyer to make sure the transfer was handled correctly. if you can not problem solve on your own. you should probably not write your own trust. i said simply how i did it. if you do it this way and do not do your research you could end up in trouble. thousands of other people have done it this way too. for you to tell me the template is barely adequate without knowing what state i am in and therefore not knowing the trust laws in said state seems silly too. what does adequate mean "enough" yet you marginalize it by calling it "barley adequate." why if its good enough its good enough. just because someone pays a lawyer to write a trust does that make them an expert on the subject. just because someone wrote their own does not either. do your own research come to your own conclusions
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