Suppressors NFA items bought on a trust ??

[Zevdogs]

If a new trust is set up to buy NFA items and you list 5 people on it does the ATF check the background of all 5 ore how ar the items approved

 

[JCH]

Re: NFA items bought on a trust ??

I don't believe there is a background check on a trust.

 

[KaneK]

Re: NFA items bought on a trust ??

There is no background check on a Trust. By definition a trust cannot do anything illegal otherwise it is not a valid trust.

 

[Zevdogs]

Re: NFA items bought on a trust ??

So what keeps felons from starting a trust just to get nfa stuff

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: NFA items bought on a trust ??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zevdogs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So what keeps felons from starting a trust just to get nfa stuff </div></div>



prolly nothing....cept the 10 years tossing salad in a federal bunk house and the 250k hickey.

 

[m1garand30064]

Re: NFA items bought on a trust ??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zevdogs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So what keeps felons from starting a trust just to get nfa stuff </div></div>

When I picked up my suppressors my dealer filled out a 4473 and I had to provide him with a copy of my carry permit. I am guessing if I did not have that I would have been subjected to an instant background check.

 

[Zevdogs]

Re: NFA items bought on a trust ??

Ok so a background check would keep felons from a weapon... I was wondering why gang members don't set up a trust for NFA stuff

 

[Gavin S.]

Re: NFA items bought on a trust ??

Yep, no CLEO sign-off, no picture or fingerprints required. It's an all around good way to go about acquiring NFA items. I first attempted to buy a suppressor about 12 years ago as a private individual and my CLEO would not sign-off on me. I'm glad I finally got off my ass and took him out of the loop by getting a gun trust. Hard on the bank account, though.

 

[R_A_W]

Re: NFA items bought on a trust ??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zevdogs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So what keeps felons from starting a trust just to get nfa stuff </div></div>

prolly nothing....cept the 10 years tossing salad in a federal bunk house and the 250k hickey. </div></div>

and a general overwhelming incapacity among felons that enables them to go about getting a trust.
(Sure, that's a generalization, and many may be capable... but independently, most are probably not)

Any attorney worth his salt who is approached for the purpose of writing a gun trust should obtain a background check of the individual anyways... imo.
Enabling a felon to obtain NFA items seems like a short track to becoming disbarred. I know nothing about malpractice/NFA, however.

 

[Witch_Doctor]

Re: NFA items bought on a trust ??

When you purchase an NFA item, a copy of your Trust accompanies your forms to the NFA Division. Meaning it is documented evidence pertaining to who is on the Trust at the time of purchase. If you have a person who is a convicted felon on that Trust, they will have just committed the act of constructive possession of a firearm by a convicted felon, and the constructive act of illigal possession of an item regulated by the NFA once the Trust takes possession of the item. As a side note, there will most likely be charges brought against other members of the Trust if they knew or should have known that the individual was a convicted felon. That means that they, and you, can now can be picked up by law enforcement and go to federal prison for quite awhile with little to no defense in a court of law.

 

[R_A_W]

Re: NFA items bought on a trust ??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Badshot308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Felons rarely attempt to purchase firearms or NFA items legally. They just steal or purchase stolen items on the black market. After all, with the mentality they have, laws don't apply to them... </div></div>

True.
Most felons who would actually want a NFA weapon seek it for illegal purposes anyways.
Why would they form a trust, fill out a form 4, apply, wait, then pay for the weapon + $200 tax, when it is ultimately tied back to them?

That's a pretty generous assumption that they know something about the NFA...

 

[Witch_Doctor]

Re: NFA items bought on a trust ??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RAWatson</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Badshot308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Felons rarely attempt to purchase firearms or NFA items legally. They just steal or purchase stolen items on the black market. After all, with the mentality they have, laws don't apply to them... </div></div>

True.
Most felons who would actually want a NFA weapon seek it for illegal purposes anyways.
Why would they form a trust, fill out a form 4, apply, wait, then pay for the weapon + $200 tax, when it is ultimately tied back to them?

That's a pretty generous assumption that they know something about the NFA... </div></div>

Cuase thats how all those evil machine guns and evil assault weapons ended up in Mexico, criminal's obeying the law, buying guns legally, and then transporting them legally out of the country . . . .

 

[nw911guy]

Re: NFA items bought on a trust ??

Does this apply to a non-profit as well?

 

[KaneK]

Re: NFA items bought on a trust ??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zevdogs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok so a background check would keep felons from a weapon... I was wondering why gang members don't set up a trust for NFA stuff</div></div> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zevdogs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok so a background check would keep felons from a weapon... I was wondering why gang members don't set up a trust for NFA stuff</div></div>

A background check is not required on NFA items. A 4473 still is, but there is a box specifically for NFA

 

[Zevdogs]

Re: NFA items bought on a trust ??

thanks very much for the great info...one last question about a trust
if I'm just starting a trust with only the intent of NFA items being suppressors on a form 1
in the trust, the very first time i use it their is nothing to list in the schedule A ( because i have no items right ?????)

then their after if i add stuff it would be amended as such ?

 

[Witch_Doctor]

Re: NFA items bought on a trust ??

On Exhibit A, list ALL NFA Items for your first submittal.

 

[KaneK]

Re: NFA items bought on a trust ??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zevdogs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">thanks very much for the great info...one last question about a trust
if I'm just starting a trust with only the intent of NFA items being suppressors on a form 1
in the trust, the very first time i use it their is nothing to list in the schedule A ( because i have no items right ?????)

then their after if i add stuff it would be amended as such ?</div></div>

You trust has to have something of value in it, otherwise it is not valid. You really should talk with an attorney in your area to fit your specific needs

 

[Zevdogs]

Re: NFA items bought on a trust ??

Thanks , I talked to one today but he wanted 5000.00 to set up a NFA trust and that was way to much so it's Quicken for me

 

[cluebat]

Re: NFA items bought on a trust ??

$5000? Around here a lawyer who specializes in gun trusts will charge you about $400. I'd try to find someone who knows what they are doing.

 

[Downzero]

Re: NFA items bought on a trust ??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nw1911guy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does this apply to a non-profit as well? </div></div>

Non-profits are usually corporations. Corporations can own NFA items just like trusts.

 

[dujd09]

Re: NFA items bought on a trust ??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KaneK</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zevdogs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">thanks very much for the great info...one last question about a trust
if I'm just starting a trust with only the intent of NFA items being suppressors on a form 1
in the trust, the very first time i use it their is nothing to list in the schedule A ( because i have no items right ?????)

then their after if i add stuff it would be amended as such ?</div></div>

You trust has to have something of value in it, otherwise it is not valid. You really should talk with an attorney in your area to fit your specific needs</div></div>

Just a minor correction, a trust with nothing on the Schedule A is not invalid just because there is no property in the trust estate (although it could be invalid for different reasons), it is an unfunded revocable trust. The effect of an unfunded trust may vary in your state.

If you want to create a funded trust for whatever reasons, just list a small amount of cash on your Schedule A...

As for the $5,000, are you sure that's not a retainer? Many estate planning attorneys required a retainer to keep the attorney-client relationship going. It is beneficial if you have a big estate so the attorney will keep you abreast of changes in the law, and make sure your documents are always up-to-date. The attorney may not have understood that you just wanted a scrivener for a simple one time trust... or the attorney may not want to take jobs that small.

 

[cwylie]

Re: NFA items bought on a trust ??

So let me get this right..... you start a trust and the trust can purchase NFA items. Is this any trust or does it have to be a specific firearms trust?

 

[Witch_Doctor]

Re: NFA items bought on a trust ??

specific to NFA

 

[KYS]

Re: NFA items bought on a trust ??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Witch Doctor</div><div class="ubbcode-body">specific to NFA </div></div>

Yes. Quicken Willmaker is not the correct path. Let a lawyer write it for you.
You do NOT want to leave a path of hardship for your heirs should something happen to you. When they go to to take it over Quicken just isn't specific enough language. The ATF will give them a hard time.

 

[Zevdogs]

Re: NFA items bought on a trust ??

The layer I talked to said if you want my stamp on a NFA trust I charge a starting rate of 5000.00

With a trust doing a form 1 suppressor it can't be listed on the schedule A untill I get my tax stamp back right(because it can't be made untill the trust is valid and taxes paid ? )

 

[m1garand30064]

Re: NFA items bought on a trust ??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zevdogs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The layer I talked to said if you want my stamp on a NFA trust I charge a starting rate of 5000.00

With a trust doing a form 1 suppressor it can't be listed on the schedule A untill I get my tax stamp back right(because it can't be made untill the trust is valid and taxes paid ? ) </div></div>

5000 is outrageous. Shop around. I have seen quotes from 250 to 600 clams.

 

[Zevdogs]

Re: NFA items bought on a trust ??

Some good info on NFA trusts

Trust info

http://forums.officer.com/showthread.php?107341-Taking-the-Trust-route-to-the-NFA...

http://arizonagunlist.com/How_to_buy_NFA...EO_signoff.html

http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=66559

 

[dujd09]

Re: NFA items bought on a trust ??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cwylie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So let me get this right..... you start a trust and the trust can purchase NFA items. Is this any trust or does it have to be a specific firearms trust?</div></div>

It must be a revocable trust, meaning the settlor(s) retains the right to modify extinguish the trust and take back the principal any time before death. There is no requirement that it be a "specific firearms trust", although it is generally a good practice to maintain your firearms in a trust that is separate from your other property. The reason being that you may want to appoint Trustees to have access to your firearms, and not want to appoint those people as Trustees of your other property (i.e. house, money, cars, etc).

The term "NFA Trust" is more along the lines of a marketing term, generally referring to a trust with instructions to the Trustees regarding various firearms laws, regulations, etc. You won't find the term in Black's Law Dictionary, at least not the edition I have...

 

[Schlafftablett]

Re: NFA items bought on a trust ??

There is quite a bit of less than correct information in this thread and some is just confusing. I’m by no means a lawyer, but have done more than my fair share of research into the subject both before and after establishing my trust so I thought I’d try to clear up some questions for people.
To legally purchase NFA items you generally can go one of 3 ways;
1) Individual registration. This requires you, as the buyer, to file the appropriate ATF forms, 2 photos, 2 fingerprint cards, CLEO signature, $200 and a certificate of citizenship. The item will be registered to you and only you can possess it. This includes your wife/husband having access to the safe it’s stored in, etc. When you die your beneficiaries can take possession of the items tax free (if legally allowed to do so) once a tax-free transfer form has been approved (BATF Form 3).

2) Corporation. As a legal entity (effectively an “artificial person”), a corporation can make and or register NFA items in the same way a real person can. The main differences being that appointed officers of the LLC can all possess the items. Registering NFA via corp. requires no fingerprints, photos, or background check (by ATF) because it isn’t a natural person and this can speed processing slightly. Down sides include
a. Maintenance of the LLC; many states require annual filing fees to maintain corporate status,
b. Filing of state and federal income tax statements
c. Potential loss of all corporate holdings via law suit, failure to maintain LLC status, etc

3) Trust. Trusts, like corporations, are legal entities but have very different requirements although the applicable ATF forms, $200 check, and certificate of citizenship must still be filed. Trusts are designed to be property conveyors so that items that are placed in trust can be transferred to trust beneficiaries with as little issue as possible. In much the same way as a will, a trust allows you to dictate to whom you would like your property to go to when you die and to some extent, how it will be used.

The trust does not strictly have to be a revocable trust as was stated earlier but that does generally make the most sense as an irrevocable trust cannot be easily modified to add or subtract trust assets (buying and selling items), trustees, or beneficiaries. An irrevocable trust does, however, give the trust assets protection from judgment if you are in a position that you may be sued readily or perhaps have a high likelihood of filing for bankruptcy. These may be substantial benefits for some but for the majority of people a Revocable Living Trust is preferred.

A Revocable Living Trust can allow you (the Grantor) to select Trustees (usually yourself, spouse, family, etc) to have full legal control over the trust property. The Trustees have a duty to care for and use the property for the benefit of the Beneficiaries (someone other than you). This means that anyone named as a trustee has legal claim to the property and so far as NFA law is concerned, can possess and or dispose of it so long as the move is for the benefit of the beneficiary. This is only true however, if the trust has been specifically drafted to ensure the legality of trust property use IAW state law.

On the subject of trustee possession; It was mentioned earlier that naming a prohibited person would constitute “constructive possession” this is wrong. It is true that prohibited persons cannot be listed as trustees but it is because doing so would constitute a breach of fiduciary responsibility by de-valuing the property. That is, by allowing a prohibited person to possess the NFA item a violation of GCA ’68 will have occurred and the property forfeited thereby reducing the value of the trust. There would not be charges or anything of that sort; the trust would simply be declared invalid. This is another good reason to use a Revocable Trust in that it is easily modified so that should one of your named trustees become a prohibited person, they can be removed from the trust without invalidating it.

In so far as transfer of the NFA items after your death is concerned, the trust is generally the easiest to deal with. If you have items registered to yourself as an individual, your beneficiary must have an approved Form 3 for each item to take possession of the items. With a LLC, full legal control of the company must be transferred and all corporate debt will be settled out of company holdings. With the trust all that is required, generally, is that you die. The trust will continue to hold the property and no transfer is required. This would be a substantial benefit if, in the future, the transfer of NFA is frozen because so long as the original trust is in place, no actual transfer would occur and the trust beneficiaries could continue to pass on your property indefinitely.

As for the actual registering of NFA items using a trust; you must send in the applicable ATF forms, $200 check, and certificate of citizenship along with the complete trust and the Schedule A. In many states the Schedule A, as was stated, must have property of value listed for the trust to be valid but it DOES NOT have to list all trust property. I list a single $20 bill when sending in the forms just to demonstrate that the trust is funded and does hold property. On your personal copy of the original Trust, yes, list all trust property including make, model, serial number and any other identifying information you feel is pertinent but this need not be sent into ATF. IMHO, the less information you give them the better.

Almost all of the benefits I’ve listed for the use of a trust are contingent on the actual language of the document. Many would be shocked at how poorly written a Quicken trust is for this purpose and I would not be surprised if ATF determines most Quicken trusts to be invalid at some point in the near future because of it. In a nutshell, you should have a NFA specific trust drawn up if that is its intended purpose and save yourself and your heirs the headache.

 

[JSF]

Re: NFA items bought on a trust ??

Some dealers set up a trust for no charge. You might check with your dealer and see if they do.

 

[Zevdogs]

Re: NFA items bought on a trust ??

No dealer I'm doing a form 1.... This thread has prety much covered it for me thanks

 

[dujd09]

Re: NFA items bought on a trust ??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Schlafftablett</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The trust does not strictly have to be a revocable trust as was stated earlier...</div></div>

Agreed that federal law or regulations do not state that the trust needs to revocable. But if you're buying the suppressor so that you can use it (like everybody does), then it needs to be a revocable trust. As always, it's best to get your own attorney, so he can explain why and can afford to buy more suppressors too.

Just because legal discussions are always fun, I have to comment regarding asset protection. Yes, the irrevocable trust protects against your creditors... but what about the creditors of your beneficiary? You will have to make someone (other than you) the beneficiary of your irrevocable trust... then watch as his/her baby-momma/baby-daddy gets a child support order and attaches the trust property, aka your suppressor...

 

[Schlafftablett]

Re: NFA items bought on a trust ??

I was under the impression that trust property could not be attached by creditors of the beneficiary until the death or incapacitation of the Grantor. I can see how they could count that as a potential income if it were a sizable/valuable enough collection but from my own experience with the family courts, they looked at the trust value as a simple asset when calculating my net worth. All of my support was calculated directly from my income rather than assets. Of course my divorce was in PA not in S**t hole 50/50 California.

That said, would it not be possible to make my great-great-great-great grandson/daughter the beneficiary and all of the offspring in the interim trustees? I would think that could offer some level of protection to the collection at least until the actual beneficiary takes possession or is born.

 

[nw911guy]

Re: NFA items bought on a trust ??

Anyone have a recommendations for an NFA related trust attorney in Washington state?

 

[dujd09]

Re: NFA items bought on a trust ??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Schlafftablett</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was under the impression that trust property could not be attached by creditors of the beneficiary until the death or incapacitation of the Grantor. I can see how they could count that as a potential income if it were a sizable/valuable enough collection but from my own experience with the family courts, they looked at the trust value as a simple asset when calculating my net worth. All of my support was calculated directly from my income rather than assets. Of course my divorce was in PA not in S**t hole 50/50 California.

That said, would it not be possible to make my great-great-great-great grandson/daughter the beneficiary and all of the offspring in the interim trustees? I would think that could offer some level of protection to the collection at least until the actual beneficiary takes possession or is born.
</div></div>

My baba-mama hypothetical was comment on an irrevocable trust. You're correct when talking about a revocable trust.

The answer to your second question depends on whether or not your state would void a trust as a perpetuity; some do, some don't...

 

[WileyG]

Re: NFA items bought on a trust ??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Schlafftablett</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> In so far as transfer of the NFA items after your death is concerned, the trust is generally the easiest to deal with. If you have items registered to yourself as an individual, your beneficiary must have an approved Form 3 for each item to take possession of the items.
</div></div>


Form 5 for trust transferring the NFA items at death of Grantor? I've read this and I was just wondering if anybody on here has gone thru this or knows of this happening to someone else so we can get the most accurate info.

 

[Cigarcop]

Re: NFA items bought on a trust ??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Schlafftablett</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Almost all of the benefits I’ve listed for the use of a trust are contingent on the actual language of the document. Many would be shocked at how poorly written a Quicken trust is for this purpose and I would not be surprised if ATF determines most Quicken trusts to be invalid at some point in the near future because of it. In a nutshell, you should have a NFA specific trust drawn up if that is its intended purpose and save yourself and your heirs the headache.
</div></div>

Just curious if the ATF was to find them invalid, what actions in "your opinions" could be taken on those who hold these items already?

I mean lets think about this, you filed paperwork, they approaved it and cashed your check, then issued the tax stamp for the item.

 

[ST42]

Re: NFA items bought on a trust ??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nw1911guy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone have a recommendations for an NFA related trust attorney in Washington state? </div></div>

+1 on this. If you have an Attorney that you have used in WA. I could use the recommendation too.

 

[GcH]

Re: NFA items bought on a trust ??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: STS</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nw1911guy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone have a recommendations for an NFA related trust attorney in Washington state? </div></div>

+1 on this. If you have an Attorney that you have used in WA. I could use the recommendation too. </div></div>
I'd love the name of one in SW Ohio if anyone has used one around here. Been kicking this around for years now, and always stop at actually cold calling lawyers looking for one who sounds like he knows what he's doing. $5000 is way stupid, but one for $250-$600 would have me shopping for stuff right away.

 

[Schlafftablett]

Re: NFA items bought on a trust ??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dujd09</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The answer to your second question depends on whether or not your state would void a trust as a perpetuity; some do, some don't... </div></div>

I believe that PA is one that doesn't if my memory serves.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WileyC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Form 5 for trust transferring the NFA items at death of Grantor? I've read this and I was just wondering if anybody on here has gone thru this or knows of this happening to someone else so we can get the most accurate info. </div></div>

I don't think I was very clear when I wrote that and I did make a mistake by saying Form 3 not form 5. I'm sorry. If the item is registered to an individual then the Form 5 is required for the tax free transfer to a willed beneficiary. If the item is registered to a trust then no forms are necessary because no transfer is taking place as far as BATF is concerned. The trust holds the items as if it were a corporation or a person. So long as the trust stands as legal then you never actually transfer anything.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cigarcop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just curious if the ATF was to find them invalid, what actions in "your opinions" could be taken on those who hold these items already?

I mean lets think about this, you filed paperwork, they approved it and cashed your check, then issued the tax stamp for the item. </div></div>

As far as I know, it would be possible to have your trust amended by a actual lawyer to ensure it complies with and or addresses all of the NFA specific issues that come with a NFA trust.

Just because BATF approved your paperwork and issued a stamp doesn't mean that they can't at some point review your trust and determine it is invalid. It has happened before and I have no doubt it will again. This has happened with both Quicken trusts and ones that individuals wrote up based on what I would assume to be trust templates they found on the internet.

Prince Law firm (Atty Joshua Prince) in Pennsylvania has an excellent FAQ on his web site about firearms trusts and the intricacies of the NFA and how it applies to them.

 

[R_A_W]

Re: NFA items bought on a trust ??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Schlafftablett</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dujd09</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The answer to your second question depends on whether or not your state would void a trust as a perpetuity; some do, some don't... </div></div>

I believe that PA is one that doesn't if my memory serves.</div></div>
Depends when the interest was created...

Interest created before 01/01/07, RAP applies
20 Pa.C.S.A. § 6104

Interest created after 12/31/06, no interest shall be voided as a perpetuity
20 Pa.C.S.A. § 6107.1
(recently modified by 2010 Pa. Legis. Serv. Act 2010-85 (S.B. 53))

Not getting out the blue book, sorry.


IIRC, many states are moving/have moved away from the rule against perpetuities in a similar way/shape/form

 

[Downzero]

Re: NFA items bought on a trust ??

Wow, never thought I'd see a discussion this extensive of property law on this forum.

Any decent lawyer will know how to get around the rule anyway (if it even applies). There are a number of methods, of which I won't even try to explain here.

I probably wouldn't try to leave some piece of property to a person not living at the time of the creation of the document unless I had a damn good reason, personally.

Seems like it serves no purpose to leave my silencer to my hypothetical niece or nephew who are not yet born.

 

[Schlafftablett]

Re: NFA items bought on a trust ??

Not to dredge this up needlessly, but I'd consider leaving my stuff to an as yet unborn desendant simply for the F-You factor to the .gov should there ever be a freeze on transfers of NFA items (or the other title one items in my trust).