MASSIVE new ATF NFA Change

[Fig]

Sounds like you are creating a modern definition of tyranny. This ain't no Townshend Act at $.03 per pound of tea where you would pay a fine. These are serious Class 1 federal felonies. The way they play around with language that has such dire, lifechanging consequences ought to raise the hairs on anyone's nape. They seem to do it on whim. The only logical explanation is that they hate and want to destroy law abiding citizens. Draw your own conclusions.

 

[FuhQ]

Sounds like you are creating a modern definition of tyranny. This ain't no Townshend Act at $.03 per pound of tea where you would pay a fine. These are serious Class 1 federal felonies. The way they play around with language that has such dire, lifechanging consequences ought to raise the hairs on anyone's nape. They seem to do it on whim. The only logical explanation is that they hate and want to destroy law abiding citizens. Draw your own conclusions.

Thus, they only logical CONSTITUTIONAL conclusion is full dismantling of the tyrannical bureaucracy that hates the very people it’s supposed to work for. Once an agency becomes rogue and a political weapon for one side or the other, used against it’s own free people, too entrap and imprison, it’s original purpose has just become forfeit. This could be said about just about every alphabet agency in existence.

 

[AznTactical]

ATF's Eform 1 website sucks. Sometimes I can get in, 80% of the time I can't.

 

[wade2big]

Thank you!!! Ironically, someone just posted a thread asking this same question on here a few weeks ago... I think we have some undercover Feds running around... Or maybe just Undercover Fudds... *** Cue Twilight Zone music ***

Either way, you are correct, people need to stop asking questions, and stop asking for permission. THEY work for US, not the other way around. It's high-time the ATF, and the entire government at this point, got reminded of that.

Government personnel don’t work work for us. Never have. Never will.

 

[FuhQ]

Government doesn’t work work for us. Never have. Never will.

They did at one time… Granted, that was well over 100 years ago… But it was writ in the Charter, “…a government of the people, for the people, and by the people…”

But even our founding fathers knew that every government, if given enough time, would succumb to enormous corruption, greed, evil, and tyranny, and would need to be heavily reigned back in. Thus, the inclusion of the Bill of Rights, including the 1st and 2nd Amendments.

 

[reelserious]

these assholes just never stop.

 

[LawnMM]

Well in this case it's not even a rule. It's a bad answer to a question asked that got posted to a Web site that has no more legal authority than this site does.

Y'all worry about some weird shit.

"OMG the ATF FAQ has the force of law!!!!!!"

Gimme a fuckin break. Listen to Cory.

 

[DetroitRearView]

The way the answer is worded the ATF “agent” any LEO who put their hands on the “regulated item” are also in violation. Stupid…I have always been in favor of a complete disbanding of ATF

also, Cory is correct

 

[Zak Smith]

ASA & NSSF inquired and got this answer:

?The Q&A currently listed on the eforms account is incorrect. In this
scenario, the registered owner of the NFA weapon is co-located with the
firearm and thus no transfer has occurred. However, if the person firing
the NFA weapon is prohibited from possessing the firearm there could be a
GCA violation. We are working to correct the site as quickly as possible.?

 

[Cynical]

They took that question and answer down, citing “confusion”

 

[Baron23]

ASA & NSSF inquired and got this answer:

Yeah, before they got their ass handed to them by the SCOTUS who has been very clear in some recent cases that exec branch agencies do not have the authority to levy new laws...and as far as I know (which is not very far, admittedly), the NFA does not contain any such rules about constructive possession.

Unfortunately, if the ATF did hold to this asshole position then it would take years to work its way thru the court and I believe someone would have to have suffered some consequences of it in order to have standing to bring suit.

Yep...they backing up like a mofo. haha

 

[ToddM]

Don't worry they're making up for it with the DOJ getting a restraining order on sales of Rare Breed triggers now for creating "machine guns" this week.

 

[southernpew]

Don't worry they're making up for it with the DOJ getting a restraining order on sales of Rare Breed triggers now for creating "machine guns" this week.

I brought this up to a friend last night after seeing John Crump go through that case. He asked me an interesting question

Is there another example of a government agency suing a private business?

 

[ToddM]

I'd imagine there's a lot of examples, especially once you get into say EPA superfund sites or suspected monopolies, companies of questionable finances etc. I believe the US Gov't technically has all the ability to bring a lawsuit that anyone else does. You can find a ton of examples of the FTC and DOJ suing private companies.

 

[WindstormSCR]

The process is the punishment. You cant afford it

I can't, but I'm sure the FPC + SAF can, and I would happily invite them to bring to bear all available resources to fix the problem. Shit like this is exactly why I donate to those groups, because there is a chance that my donation might help a law abiding citizen avoid those lifechanging consequences, by providing some of the $$ to pursue the case.

 

[Holliday]

ASA & NSSF inquired and got this answer:

Thanks for chiming in Zak. I’d really hate to see my cat shot over this sort of thing ……

 

[jff_stvns]

Now this !

 

[jff_stvns]

On your own dirt road, you absolutely can.

Maybe, Mr Fish & Game can give you a DUI on your own dirt road on your property, who’s to say if had a couple of beers with a minor driving in your presence ?
Laws are subjective, you will be judged by the totality of circumstances.
Seems if they can do that they can do anything they want and see what sticks in court on your dime and time.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

I'd imagine there's a lot of examples, especially once you get into say EPA superfund sites or suspected monopolies, companies of questionable finances etc. I believe the US Gov't technically has all the ability to bring a lawsuit that anyone else does. You can find a ton of examples of the FTC and DOJ suing private companies.

There is a bit of a difference between the ATF and the EPA or FTC. The ATF is a law enforcement agency, not just a regulatory body. In this case, the ATF is trying to sidestep Chevron Deference while simultaneously placing the suite in the most liberal court possible. Ironically, when RB sued the ATF, the ATF complained they were court shopping. The ATF then turned around, shopped for a court, and filed a civil suit to bleed RB before, what I assume will be, the inevitable criminal case in a year or two. So yes, this is pretty unprecedented for the ATF with regard to NFA enforcement. They simply don't want to litigate the definition of a machinegun or have it fall under lenity.

 

[hlee]

So we’re 70 posts in. Has anyone mentioned that the ATF has said that this was posted in error?

 

[Holliday]

So we’re 70 posts in. Has anyone mentioned that the ATF has said that this was posted in error?

Yes, Zak covered this above…..

 

[Rubicon Precision]

Maybe, Mr Fish & Game can give you a DUI on your own dirt road on your property, who’s to say if had a couple of beers with a minor driving in your presence ?
Laws are subjective, you will be judged by the totality of circumstances.
Seems if they can do that they can do anything they want and see what sticks in court on your dime and time.

I won’t pretend to know the laws in any state, but here in California, if your private property isn’t open to the public, DUI laws are not applicable. Now if your private property happens to be a grocery store parking lot, which is accessible to the public, sure.

My point is, trying to compare firearm laws to vehicle codes doesn’t work, regardless of what side of the view you’re on.

I constantly see people trying to so so by saying guns need to be licensed and insured because cars need to be. But as far as I know, not a single state requires you to be licensed to own, or requires insurance to own a vehicle.

 

[longshot2000]

Your 12 year old kid can’t drive your truck down a dirt road with you in the passenger seat either………

I’ve never seen an ATF agent at a range checking for felons I can’t see them doing much about this

Definatley Interesting though.

Plenty of dealers who allow machine gun shoots at their ranges. Think Las Vegas. I have not read the fine print, but not sure if that Answer applies to SOT holders.

 

[hlee]

So we’re just gonna continue to pretend the ATF didn’t walk this back already?

K…

 

[jff_stvns]

I won’t pretend to know the laws in any state, but here in California, if your private property isn’t open to the public, DUI laws are not applicable. Now if your private property happens to be a grocery store parking lot, which is accessible to the public, sure.

My point is, trying to compare firearm laws to vehicle codes doesn’t work, regardless of what side of the view you’re on.

I constantly see people trying to so so by saying guns need to be licensed and insured because cars need to be. But as far as I know, not a single state requires you to be licensed to own, or requires insurance to own a vehicle.

Fish & Game can come on to your property and make sure you are hunting within the law and have proper hunting licenses. They have the power to do what ever they want and that includes giving you a DUI on your own private property. I’m not saying I agree with it but do some research you may be surprised what they can do on your private property.

As far as insurance goes if you do not carry insurance if you have a ccw you are going to be in for a rude awakening if you ever end up in court defending yourself in a self defense case.

 

[WindstormSCR]

Fish & Game can come on to your property and make sure you are hunting within the law and have proper hunting licenses. They have the power to do what ever they want and that includes giving you a DUI on your own private property. I’m not saying I agree with it but do some research you may be surprised what they can do on your private property.

As far as insurance goes if you do not carry insurance if you have a ccw you are going to be in for a rude awakening if you ever end up in court defending yourself in a self defense case.

depends heavily on the state. most states if you have barrier fencing they need a warrant to cross your fence.

 

[jff_stvns]

depends heavily on the state. most states if you have barrier fencing they need a warrant to cross your fence.

Not Fish & Game, you do not own the wildlife on your property, Fish & Game have a broader power than most think. They can most definitely come onto your land with ought any kind of warrant. Now if your under investigation for poaching they need to have a warrant to search your home. Let’s say they want to DNA test the meat in your freezer, yes they can do that.
Watch Main Fish & Game it’s a great series. Watch Youtube on fish & game you may be surprised on what you learn.

 

[Aftermath]

ATF's Eform 1 website sucks. Sometimes I can get in, 80% of the time I can't. View attachment 8058391

Ya gotta pay the cable bill, maaaan.

 

[FuhQ]

Not Fish & Game, you do not own the wildlife on your property, Fish & Game have a broader power than most think. They can most definitely come onto your land with ought any kind of warrant. Now if your under investigation for poaching they need to have a warrant to search your home. Let’s say they want to DNA test the meat in your freezer, yes they can do that.
Watch Main Fish & Game it’s a great series. Watch Youtube on fish & game you may be surprised on what you learn.

Game Wardens carry some big power. They can pull you over and write you a speeding ticket if they want to. And just like you mentioned, they can do just about whatever they want, even on private property, without a warrant. Got a good buddy who used to be one for about 10 years down in South Alabama, before moving back to Auburn to be a local cop (closer to family). Heard my share of crazy stories, too.

 

[Bakwa]

Despite the way this all sounds, game wardens can't just do whatever they want. They must be able to articulate that they had reason to [look in your cooler, be on your property, etc,...] by way of evidence that you have been participating in the "highly regulated activities" or likely violation thereof.
No doubt there have been some old school game wardens that have abused their powers in the part, but the days a that happening are largely over [at least fewer and farther] in my experience.

 

[FuhQ]

Despite the way this all sounds, game wardens can't just do whatever they want. They must be able to articulate that they had reason to [look in your cooler, be on your property, etc,...] by way of evidence that you have been participating in the "highly regulated activities" or likely violation thereof.
No doubt there have been some old school game wardens that have abused their powers in the part, but the days a that happening are largely over [at least fewer and farther] in my experience.

I figured that part was implied.

 

[fdkay]

I figured that part was implied.

Really? You've never had a warden come up to while you were fishing and TELL you he is looking in your cooler?
They cut locks to gain entry to property without owner consent ALL the time.