Night Vision NIGHT VISION PRODUCT- WHICH ONE TO CHOOSE?
- Thread starter TOSA INU
- Start date
Re: NIGHT VISION PRODUCT- WHICH ONE TO CHOOSE?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NLA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What is the best nv product on the market today for someone shooting a 375 snipetac and other large bore rifles? </div></div>
Clip-ons such as the long range CNVD-LR and PVS-27's come to mind in a hurry. These both can handle big boomers and can reach out there a great deal for distance.
http://www.tnvc.com/shop/category/night-vision-clipons/
Hope this helps.
Vic
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NLA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What is the best nv product on the market today for someone shooting a 375 snipetac and other large bore rifles? </div></div>
Clip-ons such as the long range CNVD-LR and PVS-27's come to mind in a hurry. These both can handle big boomers and can reach out there a great deal for distance.
http://www.tnvc.com/shop/category/night-vision-clipons/
Hope this helps.
Vic
Re: NIGHT VISION PRODUCT- WHICH ONE TO CHOOSE?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NLA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Between the 2 mentioned nv devices, which one would be the best choice if money was not the issue? warranty-reliability-better glass. thank,s for the advice. </div></div>
We found out with our long term shoot test the PVS-27 at EXTREME long ranges did a tad bit better with it's fast 1.0F/Stop lens. Both units tested with S&B glass as well.
The CNVD-LR is much lighter and performs VERY good with just a tad bit less at 700M+. I like the focusing lever position on the unit and they both come with Larue mounts.
Both systems are VERY close and we like both for their intended purposes. You cannot go wrong with either.
Vic
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NLA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Between the 2 mentioned nv devices, which one would be the best choice if money was not the issue? warranty-reliability-better glass. thank,s for the advice. </div></div>
We found out with our long term shoot test the PVS-27 at EXTREME long ranges did a tad bit better with it's fast 1.0F/Stop lens. Both units tested with S&B glass as well.
The CNVD-LR is much lighter and performs VERY good with just a tad bit less at 700M+. I like the focusing lever position on the unit and they both come with Larue mounts.
Both systems are VERY close and we like both for their intended purposes. You cannot go wrong with either.
Vic
Re: NIGHT VISION PRODUCT- WHICH ONE TO CHOOSE?
If you use the CLIP-ON with large calibers "338 lapua comes to mind" Over time, it possible for a clip on device collimation to shift.the PVS-27 device which requires it to be re-collimated at the factory.if the CNVD-LR device ever needed re-collimation , it is quite easily accomplished by the user. it’s a rare thing but not Impossible.
If you use the CLIP-ON with large calibers "338 lapua comes to mind" Over time, it possible for a clip on device collimation to shift.the PVS-27 device which requires it to be re-collimated at the factory.if the CNVD-LR device ever needed re-collimation , it is quite easily accomplished by the user. it’s a rare thing but not Impossible.
Re: NIGHT VISION PRODUCT- WHICH ONE TO CHOOSE?
On specifications, the CNVD-LR is not suitable for use in extremely dark conditions as it has a relatively slow <span style="font-weight: bold">F1.85</span> lens - one of the slowest I have seen on any Night Vision system. ^1
By comparison, the AN/PVS-27 has a cat lens with a F-number of <span style="font-weight: bold">F1.0</span> - This means it sees about as well as an AN/PVS-14 under extremely dark conditions, given an equivalent tube. ^2
Working against this however, the AN/PVS-27 has a long-focus 92mm objective lens while the CNVD-LR has a focal length of 110mm. This translates to a 10degree FOV for the PVS-27 and an 8 degree FOV for the CNVD-LR.
In evaluating how this affects operation, you can make the following assumptions.
1. The CNVD-LR has an effective gain in maximum resolution under high light conditions (eg, with external illuminator or spotlights or moonlight ) of around 1.2x - which means that it can achieve approximately the same image quality with a riflescope set at 12x magnification that the AN/PVS-27 can achieve with a riflescope set at 10x magnification.
2. The AN/PVS-27 has nearly 4 times the system light amplification power as the CNVD-LR. Given the rate at which MTF drops off, this means that the AN/PVS-27 will have more resolution than the CNVD-LR under extremely low light conditions ( eg, Starlight ) than the CNVD-LR. It will also remain use-able under all lighting conditions a shooter is likely to experience.
So, this may help you with your choice. If you want passive gear and need it to work optimally under starlight, then the AN/PVS-27 is your only option.
If you intend to shoot with moonlight most of the time or live near a built-up area or use IR torches and lamps, then you can gain an extra 20% system resolution with the CNVD-LR, so you can weigh this up in your decision.
Personally, I'd go with the AN/PVS-27 if I could get hold of one
The MUNS is a very well designed scope that has significant capability under starlight condition. Personally, I'd take passive performance over high-light performance any day.
Hope this helps
References:
^1. Information taken from datasheets for CNVD-LR - http://nightvision-thermal.com/pdf/nitehog_cnvd-lr.pdf
^2. Information taken from data published on the AN/PVS-27 MUNS - http://www.ownthenight.com/catalog/i177.html
On specifications, the CNVD-LR is not suitable for use in extremely dark conditions as it has a relatively slow <span style="font-weight: bold">F1.85</span> lens - one of the slowest I have seen on any Night Vision system. ^1
By comparison, the AN/PVS-27 has a cat lens with a F-number of <span style="font-weight: bold">F1.0</span> - This means it sees about as well as an AN/PVS-14 under extremely dark conditions, given an equivalent tube. ^2
Working against this however, the AN/PVS-27 has a long-focus 92mm objective lens while the CNVD-LR has a focal length of 110mm. This translates to a 10degree FOV for the PVS-27 and an 8 degree FOV for the CNVD-LR.
In evaluating how this affects operation, you can make the following assumptions.
1. The CNVD-LR has an effective gain in maximum resolution under high light conditions (eg, with external illuminator or spotlights or moonlight ) of around 1.2x - which means that it can achieve approximately the same image quality with a riflescope set at 12x magnification that the AN/PVS-27 can achieve with a riflescope set at 10x magnification.
2. The AN/PVS-27 has nearly 4 times the system light amplification power as the CNVD-LR. Given the rate at which MTF drops off, this means that the AN/PVS-27 will have more resolution than the CNVD-LR under extremely low light conditions ( eg, Starlight ) than the CNVD-LR. It will also remain use-able under all lighting conditions a shooter is likely to experience.
So, this may help you with your choice. If you want passive gear and need it to work optimally under starlight, then the AN/PVS-27 is your only option.
If you intend to shoot with moonlight most of the time or live near a built-up area or use IR torches and lamps, then you can gain an extra 20% system resolution with the CNVD-LR, so you can weigh this up in your decision.
Personally, I'd go with the AN/PVS-27 if I could get hold of one
Hope this helps
References:
^1. Information taken from datasheets for CNVD-LR - http://nightvision-thermal.com/pdf/nitehog_cnvd-lr.pdf
^2. Information taken from data published on the AN/PVS-27 MUNS - http://www.ownthenight.com/catalog/i177.html
Re: NIGHT VISION PRODUCT- WHICH ONE TO CHOOSE?
I am speaking of YEARS of experience, hundreds of systems we've sold commercially and THOUSANDS that have been delivered to the Military over many years with 308,s, 300's, 338's, and 50bmg's. I personally work with the Ft. Bragg guys VERY close on this clip-on and I have never heard, nor experienced any collimation issue with the 27. Rare or not, which can happen with ANY clip-on, I'm still waiting to experience one. (With the 27 that is).
So what I am hearing here is that somehow a bad light is on the 27 because of some "rare" issue that has never happened and of it does, the "factory" has to do it? In this extremely rare case if it ever does happen, the <span style="font-weight: bold">average </span>person does not have the equipment, experience or knowledge to recollimate it so why not let the actual scope builder FLIR or L3 do it? That makes perfect sense.
The true fact is, the ONLY return we have ever had in the last 6 years (when the MUNS was restricted for sale commercially) was a Hercules type Marine who stripped the detent power button by not pulling an turning...He amazingly muscled through that.
In talking with FLIR compared to our own QA charts (we keep track of everything around here), they also have a well under 1% return rate on ALL their clip on's which include the UNS (4000 a month delivery at any given time). Pretty darn amazing stats.
I've also NOT discounted the CNVD-LR and it's advantages and disadvantages. The end-user now has two good choices for their uses based on their range requirements.
I am speaking of YEARS of experience, hundreds of systems we've sold commercially and THOUSANDS that have been delivered to the Military over many years with 308,s, 300's, 338's, and 50bmg's. I personally work with the Ft. Bragg guys VERY close on this clip-on and I have never heard, nor experienced any collimation issue with the 27. Rare or not, which can happen with ANY clip-on, I'm still waiting to experience one. (With the 27 that is).
So what I am hearing here is that somehow a bad light is on the 27 because of some "rare" issue that has never happened and of it does, the "factory" has to do it? In this extremely rare case if it ever does happen, the <span style="font-weight: bold">average </span>person does not have the equipment, experience or knowledge to recollimate it so why not let the actual scope builder FLIR or L3 do it? That makes perfect sense.
The true fact is, the ONLY return we have ever had in the last 6 years (when the MUNS was restricted for sale commercially) was a Hercules type Marine who stripped the detent power button by not pulling an turning...He amazingly muscled through that.
In talking with FLIR compared to our own QA charts (we keep track of everything around here), they also have a well under 1% return rate on ALL their clip on's which include the UNS (4000 a month delivery at any given time). Pretty darn amazing stats.
I've also NOT discounted the CNVD-LR and it's advantages and disadvantages. The end-user now has two good choices for their uses based on their range requirements.
Re: NIGHT VISION PRODUCT- WHICH ONE TO CHOOSE?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NLA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thank,s Vic for your valuable information on these outstanding devices. </div></div>
Thanks for the kind words. We do our best and we REALLY work with clip-ons on a major scale and have seen "the <span style="font-weight: bold">good</span>, <span style="font-weight: bold">bad</span>, and the <span style="font-weight: bold">ugly</span>" with other clip-ons in general over the years, and these 2 devices exceed the 3 worded statement above.
Vic
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NLA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thank,s Vic for your valuable information on these outstanding devices. </div></div>
Thanks for the kind words. We do our best and we REALLY work with clip-ons on a major scale and have seen "the <span style="font-weight: bold">good</span>, <span style="font-weight: bold">bad</span>, and the <span style="font-weight: bold">ugly</span>" with other clip-ons in general over the years, and these 2 devices exceed the 3 worded statement above.
Vic
Re: NIGHT VISION PRODUCT- WHICH ONE TO CHOOSE?
If anyone is considering the a large scale purchase of either of these items I would highly suggest looking through both of them side by side.
What part of the Unted States do you reside in? We have done demos in the past in various locations through out the country. I have done them in Idaho Utah and Nevada. These demos can also be done in Colorado and Texas quite easily as well.
The price on both of these units Is very close and in the end it will come down to user preference.
Shoot me an email or pm to Discuss.
IPSC_GUY
SIERRA II ALPHA
If anyone is considering the a large scale purchase of either of these items I would highly suggest looking through both of them side by side.
What part of the Unted States do you reside in? We have done demos in the past in various locations through out the country. I have done them in Idaho Utah and Nevada. These demos can also be done in Colorado and Texas quite easily as well.
The price on both of these units Is very close and in the end it will come down to user preference.
Shoot me an email or pm to Discuss.
IPSC_GUY
SIERRA II ALPHA
Re: NIGHT VISION PRODUCT- WHICH ONE TO CHOOSE?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: IPSC_GUY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If anyone is considering the a large scale purchase of either of these items I would highly suggest looking through both of them side by side.
The price on both of these units Is very close and in the end it will come down to user preference.</div></div>
+1.
A very good point and an excellent idea.
I have written up an article here:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3138054#Post3138054
To help people understand the science behind these scopes and how the differences in system gain and Lens F-numbers affects operation under very low light conditions to help them understand what they are looking at when comparing the two -
Regards
David
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: IPSC_GUY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If anyone is considering the a large scale purchase of either of these items I would highly suggest looking through both of them side by side.
The price on both of these units Is very close and in the end it will come down to user preference.</div></div>
+1.
A very good point and an excellent idea.
I have written up an article here:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3138054#Post3138054
To help people understand the science behind these scopes and how the differences in system gain and Lens F-numbers affects operation under very low light conditions to help them understand what they are looking at when comparing the two -
Regards
David
Re: NIGHT VISION PRODUCT- WHICH ONE TO CHOOSE?
Have You looked threw these in person ? <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cj7hawk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: IPSC_GUY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If anyone is considering the a large scale purchase of either of these items I would highly suggest looking through both of them side by side.
The price on both of these units Is very close and in the end it will come down to user preference.</div></div>
+1.
A very good point and an excellent idea.
I have written up an article here:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3138054#Post3138054
To help people understand the science behind these scopes and how the differences in system gain and Lens F-numbers affects operation under very low light conditions to help them understand what they are looking at when comparing the two -
Regards
David
</div></div>
Held or carry them in the Field? No bashing you here Honest, But even Experience behind both is of no real matter they both reach way out there and in the same game. Performance That may matter more to some(me) the most 27 vs 24LR is size weight carry ability.
Have You looked threw these in person ? <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cj7hawk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: IPSC_GUY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If anyone is considering the a large scale purchase of either of these items I would highly suggest looking through both of them side by side.
The price on both of these units Is very close and in the end it will come down to user preference.</div></div>
+1.
A very good point and an excellent idea.
I have written up an article here:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3138054#Post3138054
To help people understand the science behind these scopes and how the differences in system gain and Lens F-numbers affects operation under very low light conditions to help them understand what they are looking at when comparing the two -
Regards
David
</div></div>
Held or carry them in the Field? No bashing you here Honest, But even Experience behind both is of no real matter they both reach way out there and in the same game. Performance That may matter more to some(me) the most 27 vs 24LR is size weight carry ability.
Re: NIGHT VISION PRODUCT- WHICH ONE TO CHOOSE?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ASM1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Have You looked threw these in person ? <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cj7hawk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: IPSC_GUY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If anyone is considering the a large scale purchase of either of these items I would highly suggest looking through both of them side by side.
The price on both of these units Is very close and in the end it will come down to user preference.</div></div>
+1.
A very good point and an excellent idea.
I have written up an article here:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3138054#Post3138054
To help people understand the science behind these scopes and how the differences in system gain and Lens F-numbers affects operation under very low light conditions to help them understand what they are looking at when comparing the two -
Regards
David
</div></div>
Held or carry them in the Field? No bashing you here Honest, But even Experience behind both is of no real matter they both reach way out there and in the same game. Performance That may matter more to some(me) the most 27 vs 24LR is size weight carry ability.
</div></div>
A fair question
I wasn't really intending to offer a hands-on review of either model - so I really couldn't tell you which has nicer knobs or if the color matches the rifle. I can't really say much about weight and balance on the rifle either. But then I wouldn't need to be an expert to determine that kind of information and I figure most buyers can work that kind of detail out for themselves, especially given they all have different kit.
The context in which I was offering advice was in the area that very few people have experience in - understanding what the numbers mean. Most people don't encounter things like F-numbers everyday so have very little idea of what F1.85 or F1.0 really means in the field and in terms of reach-way-out, they are some of the numbers that matter.
More to the point, they are numbers that matter only when taken into consideration with all the other important numbers and they really reflect how the system is going to perform under extremely low light levels - which as uncommonly as they do occur are one of the reason people buy the latest NV technology rather than going for something cheap.
By understanding those numbers, people can determine whether the devices will actually meet their needs without having to go into the field and try everything - it really helps narrow down the search quite a lot.
In the case of the CNVD-LR and the PVS-27, both scopes can reach way out there as you say and performance is very close under most circumstances and the two models should generally perform about equally most of the time, but if the user ever finds themselves in very dark circumstances, eg, needing passive NV under less than optimal starlight conditions, then the performance is not the same and the gulf between the PVS-27 and the CNVD-LR is quite significant, because the CNVD-LR is no longer able to reach way out there while the PVS-27 still can.
This isn't a matter of my opinion. It's in the detail the manufacturer provides to help people understaand what it is that they need. I'm just bringing it up and explaining to those who don't understand the significance of those numbers so that they can be aware of them.
And I think that it's important that people weight this performance information up against their needs, because perhaps performance under extremely dark conditions isn't what they need - especially if they can use extra IR - at which point other factors become more critical.
Regards
David
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ASM1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Have You looked threw these in person ? <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cj7hawk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: IPSC_GUY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If anyone is considering the a large scale purchase of either of these items I would highly suggest looking through both of them side by side.
The price on both of these units Is very close and in the end it will come down to user preference.</div></div>
+1.
A very good point and an excellent idea.
I have written up an article here:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3138054#Post3138054
To help people understand the science behind these scopes and how the differences in system gain and Lens F-numbers affects operation under very low light conditions to help them understand what they are looking at when comparing the two -
Regards
David
</div></div>
Held or carry them in the Field? No bashing you here Honest, But even Experience behind both is of no real matter they both reach way out there and in the same game. Performance That may matter more to some(me) the most 27 vs 24LR is size weight carry ability.
</div></div>
A fair question
I wasn't really intending to offer a hands-on review of either model - so I really couldn't tell you which has nicer knobs or if the color matches the rifle. I can't really say much about weight and balance on the rifle either. But then I wouldn't need to be an expert to determine that kind of information and I figure most buyers can work that kind of detail out for themselves, especially given they all have different kit.
The context in which I was offering advice was in the area that very few people have experience in - understanding what the numbers mean. Most people don't encounter things like F-numbers everyday so have very little idea of what F1.85 or F1.0 really means in the field and in terms of reach-way-out, they are some of the numbers that matter.
More to the point, they are numbers that matter only when taken into consideration with all the other important numbers and they really reflect how the system is going to perform under extremely low light levels - which as uncommonly as they do occur are one of the reason people buy the latest NV technology rather than going for something cheap.
By understanding those numbers, people can determine whether the devices will actually meet their needs without having to go into the field and try everything - it really helps narrow down the search quite a lot.
In the case of the CNVD-LR and the PVS-27, both scopes can reach way out there as you say and performance is very close under most circumstances and the two models should generally perform about equally most of the time, but if the user ever finds themselves in very dark circumstances, eg, needing passive NV under less than optimal starlight conditions, then the performance is not the same and the gulf between the PVS-27 and the CNVD-LR is quite significant, because the CNVD-LR is no longer able to reach way out there while the PVS-27 still can.
This isn't a matter of my opinion. It's in the detail the manufacturer provides to help people understaand what it is that they need. I'm just bringing it up and explaining to those who don't understand the significance of those numbers so that they can be aware of them.
And I think that it's important that people weight this performance information up against their needs, because perhaps performance under extremely dark conditions isn't what they need - especially if they can use extra IR - at which point other factors become more critical.
Regards
David
Similar threads
