Rifle Scopes Nightforce BEAST vs Leupold Mark 8

[tylerw02]

Lots of the positive Horus literature out there is more likely because of sponsorships and spokesmen than you'd find in PST.


Like said above, you can use any reticle the same way. I had a friend shoot his first match using a SFP Bushnell with Mildot reticle and 1/4 MOA knobs and no drop chart. I explained to him to keep it ok the magnification where it milled and I drew him out a range card with holdovers in Mils. He never touched his knobs and made corrections based on what he saw. He's an inexperience LR shooter but placed 10th out of 30 something shooters. Hell, he scored only 100 points below me. He didn't need a Horus to do that.

Frankly, most of the internet hype of Horus seems to be because Todd Hodnett is a good salesman and got the opportunity to sell to so many people via Magpul's video and to the right military brass.


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[Lowlight]

For most competitions the Horus is too thick, and too busy as the tight time constraints also tend to push inexperienced users to the wrong line. You're moving too fast to be able to pick the right line every time and you see guys miss under the speed and stress.

The concept was designed for hunting big game and then carried over to minute of man inside the shooters danger space (600m & in). The competition circuit has never really embraced it because of the busy reticle and thick lines. On paper it is great, after all it is just Mils, in practice, especially without a lot of training & experience it falls short in several areas.

Look at it this way, our eyes are draw towards intersections and not grids... grids confuse the brain where a crosshair with less clutter draws us in. It's difference between trying to focus on one spot on a grid out of 100 spots versus 10 spots on a crosshair with a definitive intersection. It's quicker and easier to do it with less vs trying to filter out the excess clutter. And all the better crosshairs today give you plenty of hold over adjustment on the vertical line anyway.

Rarely do you need as much as the Horus provides, so everything else just gets in the way.

 

[kennyhollingsworth]

No offense to you or your products (they are top notch). But comparing the Mil/LE discount to the Leupold discount is apples and oranges. And if you would really consider canceling the discount to every service man and women in the country based on the comment of one on an internet forum, than I have no problem shopping elsewhere.

I totally agree with this. Heck, even the Zeiss discount is 35%.

 

[Lowlight]

Zeiss is 4x larger than NF if not more dumb ass...

Some of you people are too fucking stupid to understand english... and clearly it shows who has margins to play with and who doesn't but still puts in the effort.

 

[dbransco]

I totally agree with this. Heck, even the Zeiss discount is 35%.

Entitlement in this country is way out of hand!

 

[kennyhollingsworth]

Zeiss is 4x larger than NF if not more dumb ass...

Some of you people are too fucking stupid to understand english... and clearly it shows who has margins to play with and who doesn't but still puts in the effort.

Whats fuckin stupid is the people who are quick to call someone an ass or a dumb ass on an internet forum. I said i agree with the quoted post. I typed before i read all the other responses. I still agree with it. And it was definitely a threat IMO as i read it.

 

[kennyhollingsworth]

Entitlement in this country is way out of hand!

They folks that earn these discounts deserve them...out of hand or not. Companies can choose to be more selective if they need to. I have never purchased optics using a mil discount, even tho i would be eligible. I just dont buy enough optics to worry about it. Im not a competition shooter and only have a few rifles ive built.

 

[tylerw02]

Charging people a different rate based on a number of different factors can be legally questionable in some cases. What makes you say that somebody earns their discount over somebody else? Why is it permissible to pass cost on to another group to make it possible to provide a discount?

Why does the jailer down the street "deserve" a discount more than the preacher that brings in $20 k? Or the farmer that barely makes ends meet? All these people benefit society.

I think people should be more gracious and less entitled and let companies do business in a way that works for them. Don't like it, shop elsewhere.


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[Lowlight]

Deserve discounts... really, so being a Police Officer or in the Military entitles you to a discount ...

The fact they give a discount shows they stepped up, while clearly, in the context of the thread, S&B who has several military contracts does not offer a discount.

You're not entitled to ANYTHING from a Private Company... Period.

As been noted, these companies read your bullshit and take it very serious and don't like it. They do what they can and having it thrown back in their face is disrespectful, period. If you can't understand that, you're too not smart enough to comment.

In your mind every private company in the US should offer a discount ? Do you shop off base on who gives you discounts for walking in their store.

 

[dbransco]

They folks that earn these discounts deserve them...out of hand or not. Companies can choose to be more selective if they need to. I have never purchased optics using a mil discount, even tho i would be eligible. I just dont buy enough optics to worry about it. Im not a competition shooter and only have a few rifles ive built.

Please don't take this the wrong way as I am not intending to argue; however, I feel the folks who are given the opportunity to utilize these discounts are deserving, but let's not forget these folks are not entitled to them. These discounts are gracious offerings from individuals, corporations, so on electing to say "thank you". People need to remember this and be happy whether they are $5 off or 50% off.

Just my $.02 and unfortunately not shared by enough.

 

[5RWill]

For the Mark 8 users how are the turrets compared to the Mark 6 locking turret? Also the two scopes in question are both hard to find are they not? I know the BEAST isn't out yet and i just rarely if ever see a mark 8, less it's the CQBSS.

 

[Sgposin]

Charging people a different rate based on a number of different factors can be legally questionable in some cases. What makes you say that somebody earns their discount over somebody else? Why is it permissible to pass cost on to another group to make it possible to provide a discount?

Why does the jailer down the street "deserve" a discount more than the preacher that brings in $20 k? Or the farmer that barely makes ends meet? All these people benefit society.

I think people should be more gracious and less entitled and let companies do business in a way that works for them. Don't like it, shop elsewhere.


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From a retired police officer:
Our folks getting shot overseas to protect our freedom do "deserve" whatever "discount" people are kind enough to offer them. Yes, more so than a farmer, preacher, jailer, or Police Officer... These companies are private entities and can charge whatever the hell they want to whomever they want... As someone else said, I too have never gotten or applied for a LE discount. I earn my money and pay to get the item I want. Which for me was a S&B. That had nothing to do with any discounts. It had to do with research and what "I found" to be the superior product.

And again, If a manufacturer wants to make a decision to resend a military discount based on this thread and what a few people that can’t even be confirmed as military type. Than yes, I will find another product to support (no discount necessary).

The End

 

[BGE541]

For the Mark 8 users how are the turrets compared to the Mark 6 locking turret? Also the two scopes in question are both hard to find are they not? I know the BEAST isn't out yet and i just rarely if ever see a mark 8, less it's the CQBSS.

The Mk8 turrets are nice but being that I use it for plinking/match shooting I honestly just hold 98% of shots. The Mk8s are around. I may have an extra so PM me if interested.

 

[RobertB]

Frank, is the Beast really much easier? Can the extra stuff really speed you up? Only reason I ask is that since its a FFP scope I figured if you were in a rush you would just hold over. I try to keep my rifles as clean and simple as possible. I am impressed with the design of it and would really like to get some time behind it. Just hard to jump on with the wait and the price. The brake is the part I guess I'm stumped over. Is it just a brake (Just keeps everything how you left it) or does It give you something else? Sorry if I made this complicated. Since its so different I guess I'm confused. THanks for the info on it.

 

[tylerw02]

Nightforce BEAST vs Leupold Mark 8

Why do they "deserve" it? They don't just offer it to just ground pounders getting shot at, but everybody. Cooks, barbers, paper-pushers, recruiters, etc.

What about farmers and truck drivers dying to feed the country? Statistically, truck drivers have the most dangerous job, followed by farmers. What about firefighters?

I'm not bashing cops or anything of the sort, but statistically, they are more likely to die in a car crash on the job than to be shot.

This isn't to say that police officers and soldiers and marines don't deserve the upmost respect---because they do. They knowingly put themselves in bad situations that many would avoid. However this isn't unique to their profession. There are lots of brave men as women that do other jobs that the country relies on, yet they don't get upset because their discount isn't big enough. Be grateful, not entitled.


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[tylerw02]

OP: sorry for the derailment. I'm out of this thread now.


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[Lowlight]

The Brake is a Non-Issue, the only reason it's not called a "Lock" is because Leupold owns that terms and to use it, NF would have to license it. (much is this stuff like the Horus $400 up charge) this is why we are paying more for stuff. Everything now has a license fee attached. MTC Turrets, the word Lock, the reticles, etc.

You don't need the brake, you can ignore it, so it has no bearing on the use and operation.

In one motion you can dial up .5 MOA and then "throw" the lever to .25 MOA in a single motion.

Any reticle can allow you to hold Over, the MOAR reticle is no different, if you know your dope in MOA you can hold over... if you are gonna engage targets at 400 yards and beyond and decide to dial that dope in, you can "brake it" or lock it in place and use the reticle as if you had a 400 yard zero on the rifle.

There is nothing on the Beast that requires an extra step in most applications. If you dial windage, just grabbing the turret unlocks the button. You don't have to unlock every time only off zero. The brake is not engaged on the elevation you have to engage it.

It's not rocket science

 

[BGE541]

Anybody that doesn't want their LE discount, I'll take it!

I was excited when my spouse finished college with criminal justice degree, but rather than taking a job as an officer, she ended up as an investigator. So no discount for me. I'd take 15% and be happy.

Look at it this way, since Leupold can afford to provide a discount so large, that begs to question how much cost is being passed on to the rest of us to cover it. Or is it clever marketing , "cuz it's what the SWAT team uses it just be best!"[/

Charging people a different rate based on a number of different factors can be legally questionable in some cases. What makes you say that somebody earns their discount over somebody else? Why is it permissible to pass cost on to another group to make it possible to provide a discount?

Why does the jailer down the street "deserve" a discount more than the preacher that brings in $20 k? Or the farmer that barely makes ends meet? All these people benefit society.

I think people should be more gracious and less entitled and let companies do business in a way that works for them. Don't like it, shop elsewhere.


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Man I cannot follow this... In the first quote you mention your spouse who "rather than taking a job as an officer, she ended up as an investigator" leading to your statement of "...no discount for me." Which in reality would be taking advantage of the program you clearly feel you are entitled to yet at the same time you state "Why is it permissible to pass cost on to another group to make it possible to provide a discount?"

Why would it make it any more logical for others to take up that cost so TylerW can take advantage of a benefit and gracious "Thank You" to our Mil/LEO whom they CHOOSE to support is such a giving manner?

I do not support the feeling of "Deserving" the discount but I am more shocked by: "They don't just offer it to just ground pounders getting shot at, but everybody. Cooks, barbers, paper-pushers, recruiters, etc."

^I can take a stab at this. Because not everyone in the Military/DOD is a Sniper, Team Lead, EDM, Infantry, Pilot etc etc. The Military is a TEAM EFFORT. The Military runs on the food the cooks make, needs haircuts, need the paper pushers to take care of our families when we are away and our pay is stopped for two months and finally recruiters for when the Force moves up and fresh blood is needed. Its not rocket science... Anyone in the Military who knows what it takes to head out the door knows these things. Someone chooses to support the Mil/LEO because they can.


Oh one last thing, does the family of the Patrol Officer suffer any less when ".... but statistically, they (Cops) are more likely to die in a car crash on the job than to be shot." ?

Rather, lets support these Companies that offer this. This thread started off as a NF/Mk8 Thread and now all it is doing is dividing shooters... If we want these sports/hobbies etc to be sustained let alone grow we need to get over this shit and move on. I've never shot a match and thought "Dammit, that guy paid X% less for his gear..." only greatful for the time, ability and friendships that were made.




God Bless.

 

[5RWill]

The Mk8 turrets are nice but being that I use it for plinking/match shooting I honestly just hold 98% of shots. The Mk8s are around. I may have an extra so PM me if interested.

I appreciate the offer though i'm not in the market for an optic that big. I just picked up a mark 6 recently and was wondering how you felt about your locking turrets on the mark 8. Mine are a tad mushy it's not too bothersome but i couldn't fix it do to the turrets design. Messing with my mark 4 it is much improved because my mark 4 is pretty ridiculous honestly.

 

[kennyhollingsworth]

Please don't take this the wrong way as I am not intending to argue; however, I feel the folks who are given the opportunity to utilize these discounts are deserving, but let's not forget these folks are not entitled to them. These discounts are gracious offerings from individuals, corporations, so on electing to say "thank you". People need to remember this and be happy whether they are $5 off or 50% off.

Just my $.02 and unfortunately not shared by enough.

Yes sir, i agree with this post. No name calling and profanity necessary to get your point across.

What i meant by my statement was the people that backup what they say they will do are the ones that earn the discount. I guess just being in LE or Mil doesnt entitle you to anything but i think you deserve it if you want to benefit from it. Everything comes with obligations.

As for Optics , to get back on track, all of my experience between these two companies have been with Leupold. I have a close friend that owns a .30 Hart. Very nice rifle and equipped with a MK-4 8.5 x 25 . Sorry but i dont have experience with NF and I usually go with what has worked for me in the past, until i have a good reason to change.

 

[tylerw02]

Nightforce BEAST vs Leupold Mark 8

Man I cannot follow this... In the first quote you mention your spouse who "rather than taking a job as an officer, she ended up as an investigator" leading to your statement of "...no discount for me." Which in reality would be taking advantage of the program you clearly feel you are entitled to yet at the same time you state "Why is it permissible to pass cost on to another group to make it possible to provide a discount?"

Why would it make it any more logical for others to take up that cost so TylerW can take advantage of a benefit and gracious "Thank You" to our Mil/LEO whom they CHOOSE to support is such a giving manner?

I do not support the feeling of "Deserving" the discount but I am more shocked by: "They don't just offer it to just ground pounders getting shot at, but everybody. Cooks, barbers, paper-pushers, recruiters, etc."

^I can take a stab at this. Because not everyone in the Military/DOD is a Sniper, Team Lead, EDM, Infantry, Pilot etc etc. The Military is a TEAM EFFORT. The Military runs on the food the cooks make, needs haircuts, need the paper pushers to take care of our families when we are away and our pay is stopped for two months and finally recruiters for when the Force moves up and fresh blood is needed. Its not rocket science... Anyone in the Military who knows what it takes to head out the door knows these things. Someone chooses to support the Mil/LEO because they can.


Oh one last thing, does the family of the Patrol Officer suffer any less when ".... but statistically, they (Cops) are more likely to die in a car crash on the job than to be shot." ?

Rather, lets support these Companies that offer this. This thread started off as a NF/Mk8 Thread and now all it is doing is dividing shooters... If we want these sports/hobbies etc to be sustained let alone grow we need to get over this shit and move on. I've never shot a match and thought "Dammit, that guy paid X% less for his gear..." only greatful for the time, ability and friendships that were made.




God Bless.

Apparently you aren't following me well or I'm not being clear enough. I think companies that do offer discount, it's fine and great. I'd love to get it, but I'm not entitled to a damn thing---nor would my spouse be. Nobody is entitled to anything somebody else produces on their own. Because your discount isn't big enough is no reason to bitch, because you don't get a discount is no reason to bitch. I am thrilled when I get any discount at all...the guys that offer it I try to return the favor. The 5% mile high does for us on the hide is great and thus I recommend them to people. I won't threaten to not use somebody for lack if discount. I don't buy from people with bad quality or service---or those with bad values.

Because your job is your job is no reason to be entitled. Sure there are lots of support people in the military or for law enforcement. I understand how logistics work and that there is a team effort---and appreciate that companies do offer things for them. Why should anybody be entitled to a cheaper price? Be gracious IF you get it. Be glad the company can and does offer it. Are you going to stop buying gas at BP for lack of offering military or LE discounts? Why should NF be any different?

You're making my point for me...does it matter if somebody is shot or dies in a wreck? Dead is dead. The reality is lots of people do dangerous jobs that benefit the country. That doesn't take away the respect officers and servicemen/women deserve----there are great people that ask for nothing at all. They are selfless and what makes this country great. However does the family of a truck driver or farmer suffer any less than the officer that dies at work? Nobody thanks these guys at all. Farming and transpiration are more dangerous professions than law enforcement and many military roles---but I have yet to hear the truck driver gripe because he doesn't get a NF discount. The whole "life on the line" thing as an excuse to be entitled to something from somebody is a bogus argument is the point I am making. If NF can offer it, awesome for them and you.

Sorry to op for getting drug back into this, but I didn't want to be slandered.


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[Jcub]

The people and arrogance in this thread, I feel like I'm at 24hourcampfire . com.

 

[jeo556]

I once saw a train derail that wasn't as ugly as what's happening to this thread. Focus people, FOCUS!

 

[WWhunter]

Thank you... I never post but USUALLY enjoy reading and researching these threads. I have been in and around the military since 1979 both as active duty and as a spouse and I was starting to feel I was listening to one of my 5 year old grandsons whining about why he can't get his way. It is not only arrogance, but ignorance, to have to read constant crying as to why someone is getting a discount and they can't. This is supposed to be a comparrison of different scopes.

These threads are normally quite informative for this old Marksmanship team member. I have predominantly been shooting handgun for many years and now looking at getting back into more precision rifle shooting. Seeing how much things have changed/evolved since the days of post-Vietnam is truly amazing.
Thank you for the guys that were trying to stay on subject!!!
Now I'll go back into my 'just reading mode' and hope this thread stays on subject.

 

[trickyric]

Soooo,
Does anyone know when NF is going to have the Beast readily available for purchase?

 

[smokin.338]

Last I heard from them was June/July to start having a readily supply.

 

[Km22]

Soooo,
Does anyone know when NF is going to have the Beast readily available for purchase?

It is supposed to be any day now for the first batch of orders... I hope

 

[poison123]

Last I heard from them was June/July to start having a readily supply.

Let me edit this post.

There's a light at the end of the tunnel. In the next month for when the supply should start flowing. BUT new orders are still gonna be a ways out, so if you've got a pre order your dandy. If not....good luck its gonna be even more of a wait due to the backlog they've got to work through.

 

[glockdan78]

For most competitions the Horus is too thick, and too busy as the tight time constraints also tend to push inexperienced users to the wrong line. You're moving too fast to be able to pick the right line every time and you see guys miss under the speed and stress.

The concept was designed for hunting big game and then carried over to minute of man inside the shooters danger space (600m & in). The competition circuit has never really embraced it because of the busy reticle and thick lines. On paper it is great, after all it is just Mils, in practice, especially without a lot of training & experience it falls short in several areas.

Look at it this way, our eyes are draw towards intersections and not grids... grids confuse the brain where a crosshair with less clutter draws us in. It's difference between trying to focus on one spot on a grid out of 100 spots versus 10 spots on a crosshair with a definitive intersection. It's quicker and easier to do it with less vs trying to filter out the excess clutter. And all the better crosshairs today give you plenty of hold over adjustment on the vertical line anyway.

Rarely do you need as much as the Horus provides, so everything else just gets in the way.

My experience has been 180 degrees from this. The h58 in the mark 8 has a main crosshair thickness of .045 mils and the holdover lines are less than .035 or a p4f. If you train your brain to use the Horus, it can be very fast and accurate.