Rifle Scopes Nightforce Wedge Prism

[koshkin]

Shit. One lens, half a sunshade, and a QD mount.

BAM -$900.

I wonder what it’s gonna take before precision shooters realize that many of the vendors in our space think we are morons with no ability to keep our pocketbooks closed no matter what shit they try.

Generally a precision wedge with properly hardened coatings can cost a lot of money. I have no idea what surface ad flatness specs they have, but you's be surprised how much it can cost. I just paid a few grand for an unmounted precision pentaprism at work.

ILya

 

[cleric]

Shit. One lens, half a sunshade, and a QD mount.

BAM -$900.

I wonder what it’s gonna take before precision shooters realize that many of the vendors in our space think we are morons with no ability to keep our pocketbooks closed no matter what shit they try.

for most shooters prolly not needed...for the people that need it... highly valuable.

for people shooting at the distance they realize that quality makes a difference and costs money

 

[LawnMM]

 

[Daniel-01]

As long as the entire objective is smaller or smaller than the prism, it does not have to be linedu up to the center of it. The objective does have to be entirely contained within the area of the prism.

ILya

Exactly. It is not a lens. As long as the light that ends up in your scope goes through an area with constant offset in parallelism, you are good. And since they call it a wedge, I assume that the two surfaces are flat by themselves all the way... meaning the angle between the surfaces is constant no matter how high or low you look through it. Just the thickness at that point changes but that has no impact to by how many moa / mil you look up or down.

 

[Daniel-01]

Generally a precision wedge with properly hardened coatings can cost a lot of money. I have no idea what surface ad flatness specs they have, but you's be surprised how much it can cost. I just paid a few grand for an unmounted precision pentaprism at work.

ILya

My first reaction was niiice, alternative to the charlie. Second reaction, holy s**t, 990 bucks is a chunk. I get that a prism like that with coating won't come cheap.

I will need to get something for our 375 cheytac, and now I am not sure which.

Plus on the Charlie macro, less light loss - but who shoots 2 miles + in the dark also i could adjust it to whatever I need - the NF prism 30mil would be perfect and i doubt i will need more than 60 mil up for a while but who knows

minus: size, weight

I wrote a couple of Emails back and forth with John at TacomHQ - he and judging by the videos his dad seem like good people. I dont know the details of their patent and how close NF is cutting it here... but I hope it will go down fair for Tacom.

 

[koshkin]

I've met the folks at Tacom and they definitely come off as good people. They certainly had the wedge idea first.

Now, whether the Nightforce version of this device is a patent infringment or not is not clear, since I have not read the patent. I need to dig that up and read it.

If it is an infringement and Tacom can show that they talked to Nightforce a couple of years ago (I am sure there are communication records), Nightforce could be in some hot water.

Personally, I really like the idea of a fold down wedge, like the Tarac Alpha combined with an LPVO, especially something like the new higher magnification ones. For example, with a LPVO that has some sort of a small mrad-based reticle, I can use the Tarac to switch zero to 600 yards and then use mil-holds for correction around that. I'll probably experiment with that a little when I test Razor Gen 3 and Stryker HD.

ILya

 

[jzerfoss]

Wedge prisms are not a new idea.... Tacom may have been the first to put it in front of a rifle scope but wedge prisms were around before them. I'm no patent lawyer but unless they have a very broad patent saying they are the only ones that can use a wedge prism in conjunction with a rifle scope I don't think they have a leg to stand on. I'm sure NF has a patent lawyer that went over this thoroughly.

 

[koshkin]

Wedge prisms are not a new idea.... Tacom may have been the first to put it in front of a rifle scope but wedge prisms were around before them. I'm no patent lawyer but unless they have a very broad patent saying they are the only ones that can use a wedge prism in conjunction with a rifle scope I don't think they have a leg to stand on. I'm sure NF has a patent lawyer that went over this thoroughly.

To the best of my knowledge, Tacom was there first to use a wedge prism with a riflescope for changing POA.

That is definitely patentable, unless there is prior art from someone else.

ILya

 

[jzerfoss]

To the best of my knowledge, Tacom was there first to use a wedge prism with a riflescope for changing POA.

That is definitely patentable, unless there is prior art from someone else.

ILya

You may be correct.... All wedge prisms can change angular perception so the only thing patentable would be sticking it in front of a rifle scope. They may have been too specific or too broad in their patent and left a loophole. Either way I doubt nightforce would gamble on it.

 

[Ratmansqullius]

I've met the folks at Tacom and they definitely come off as good people. They certainly had the wedge idea first.

Now, whether the Nightforce version of this device is a patent infringment or not is not clear, since I have not read the patent. I need to dig that up and read it.

If it is an infringement and Tacom can show that they talked to Nightforce a couple of years ago (I am sure there are communication records), Nightforce could be in some hot water.

Personally, I really like the idea of a fold down wedge, like the Tarac Alpha combined with an LPVO, especially something like the new higher magnification ones. For example, with a LPVO that has some sort of a small mrad-based reticle, I can use the Tarac to switch zero to 600 yards and then use mil-holds for correction around that. I'll probably experiment with that a little when I test Razor Gen 3 and Stryker HD.

ILya

Ilya,

I've been saying an Alpha and LVPO are the perfect pair for a while- I think you'll love them together. I also think you'll love the next gen Alpha we have planned.
Thanks for the kind words.

Worth noting- John (tacomHQ CEO and head engineer) also owns a process patent to build prisms accutate sub arc second- and at an incredibly economic price tag. There's a reason an alpha isn't listed at 49.6 MOA like the NF model and costs a third of the price...

 

[koshkin]

Ilya,

I've been saying an Alpha and LVPO are the perfect pair for a while- I think you'll love them together. I also think you'll love the next gen Alpha we have planned.
Thanks for the kind words.

Worth noting- John (tacomHQ CEO and head engineer) also owns a process patent to build prisms accutate sub arc second- and at an incredibly economic price tag. There's a reason an alpha isn't listed at 49.6 MOA like the NF model and costs a third of the price...

We should talk about that process patent. Are you going to be at SHOT?

In my dayjob, I use glass windows made from all sort of materials (mostly cleartran) that require a very high degree of parallelism for the two surfaces. I pay a lot of money for them.

ILya

 

[Ratmansqullius]

We should talk about that process patent. Are you going to be at SHOT?

In my dayjob, I use glass windows made from all sort of materials (mostly cleartran) that require a very high degree of parallelism for the two surfaces. I pay a lot of money for them.

ILya

We'll be there with bells on.

Message me, I'll link you up with the guy who's able to articulate the minutiae.

 

[_Windrider_]

We'll be there with bells on.

Message me, I'll link you up with the guy who's able to articulate the minutiae.

What’s up with the Charlie group buy?

 

[Daniel-01]

What’s up with the Charlie group buy?

What group buy?

 

[JB.IC]

What’s up with the Charlie group buy?

What group buy?

You have my attention. What he said.

 

[_Windrider_]

You have my attention. What he said.

Without hijacking this thread any more than I did, he had mentioned trying to put one together last year sometime. Emphasis on try, there was never a guarantee.

 

[Daniel-01]

Without hijacking this thread any more than I did, he had mentioned trying to put one together last year sometime. Emphasis on try, there was never a guarantee.

Who did?

 

[_Windrider_]

Who did?

The guy I asked above.

 

[Ratmansqullius]

The guy I asked above.

Interest kinda died. It's still a doable thing. Just gotta work out who's gonna be the one pulling the trigger. SHOT is gonna have me tied up for the next week + but DM me if you're interested and I'll start the ball rolling when I get back. Specifically anyone who's coordinated a group buy before- could use pointers.

 

[Ravenworks]

I am editing my post to include that my view isn't necessarily directed at Nightforce, but more towards being a good corporate citizen

Shit. One lens, half a sunshade, and a QD mount.
BAM -$900.
I wonder what it’s gonna take before precision shooters realize that many of the vendors in our space think we are morons with no ability to keep our pocketbooks closed no matter what shit they try.

They may sell a handful of them to the privateers.
I do see them laughing all the way to the bank with that Local,State and Federal Government money lining their pockets.

One would think NF had their ducks in a row with regards to differences in design, potential patent infringement, etc. before announcing it.
Sad as it is, I don’t foresee the small guy making out too well here.

They don't need to have their ducks in a row, all they need are deep pockets and the willingness to wait out the storm.
It doesn't take much of an imagination to see this playing out, it happens all the time.

Just a short few months ago (and they still are) Target sports started selling Prime Ammo while there wasn't a box for sale on the planet elsewhere.

NF is getting eaten alive on social media

Good, I find it appalling when large Corporations muddy the waters for the little guy.
They don't have to steal it, they just have to throw their household name in the ring.
Which will be remembered, someone famous or a nobody?
Either way, if true it's some shameful shit.

 

[Daniel-01]

I am editing my post to include that my view isn't necessarily directed at Nightforce, but more towards being a good corporate citizen



They may sell a handful of them to the privateers.
I do see them laughing all the way to the bank with that Local,State and Federal Government money lining their pockets.



They don't need to have their ducks in a row, all they need are deep pockets and the willingness to wait out the storm.
It doesn't take much of an imagination to see this playing out, it happens all the time.

Just a short few months ago (and they still are) Target sports started selling Prime Ammo while there wasn't a box for sale on the planet elsewhere.


Good, I find it appalling when large Corporations muddy the waters for the little guy.
They don't have to steal it, they just have to throw their household name in the ring.
Which will be remembered, someone famous or a nobody?
Either way, if true it's some shameful shit.

Would be interesting to read the patent. Not saying that it would change anything, NF can just wait it out as you said but I am curious. Find that stuff interesting, almost became a patent attorney after my masters in engineering - just ended up in oil n gas instead

 

[LawnMM]

Interest kinda died. It's still a doable thing. Just gotta work out who's gonna be the one pulling the trigger. SHOT is gonna have me tied up for the next week + but DM me if you're interested and I'll start the ball rolling when I get back. Specifically anyone who's coordinated a group buy before- could use pointers.

Figure out what they need to make it worth their while to offer a discount, say 20x units.

Have people who are in post as so, in the thread. Update original post with names of those interested. PM all pricing details, better that way.

Then have everybody who's in, send you the cash. When you have all the funds, then tell the company it's a go and arrange payment.

At some point you need shipping details for those who paid, ideally that's forwarded to the company and they ship direct to those who ordered.

If they send the entire order to you, it's doable, but a hassle to then divvy everything up and reship to those who paid.

Everybody gets their stuff, boom.

Don't send company cash till they have what's going to be ordered ready to go. Timely order processing is key. Keep funds till items ready so company doesn't doodle around and you're the bad guy who already sent the money in and now you're the guy everybody is unhappy with or wants a refund from.

 

[jzerfoss]

So many people on here are blatant hypocrites. It's weird and slightly idiotic. If Nf did infringement on Tacoms patent then the hate is justified and I get it. If there is obvious patent infringement then where is the legitimate proof? If there is any actual proof why isn't being plastered everywhere.

If there isn't any infringement then WTF? Since when is any company big or small immune to competition and basic capitalistic business practices. I bet there isn't a single one of these people crying foul that isn't running a Remington 700 clone of some sort, a chassis or stock that has similar design characteristics to another chassis or stock that came before it, Remy 700 clone trigger, etc etc. Examples of dozens of companies making essentially the same product with slight differences. The gun industry is a multi-billion dollar industry and of course you're going to have competition. If you came into it thinking you're immune to it you're kind of a fool.

Something tells me that NF probably isn't going to risk a patent infringement lawsuit on a gimmicky ELR product that realistically has a very small customer base compared to other parts of the shooting industry. They'd be better off competing for a part of the MRD market.

 

[Ravenworks]

Something tells me that NF probably isn't going to risk a patent infringement lawsuit on a gimmicky ELR product that realistically has a very small customer base compared to other parts of the shooting industry. They'd be better off competing for a part of the MRD market.

I'm not hippocratic, but I've been around a long time and had to defend myself once.
Infringement is easier than you think.
It's all about the Benjamins

 

[Fig]

Patents don’t last forever. I don’t know how long Keene’s lasted but my guess is they ran out in the ‘30s or ‘40s. That’s when your design goes form “Patented” to “Legendary” If it’s copied enough (legally).

 

[Jefe's Dope]

Think 1911.

 

[cummins cowboy]

I've met the folks at Tacom and they definitely come off as good people. They certainly had the wedge idea first.

Now, whether the Nightforce version of this device is a patent infringment or not is not clear, since I have not read the patent. I need to dig that up and read it.

If it is an infringement and Tacom can show that they talked to Nightforce a couple of years ago (I am sure there are communication records), Nightforce could be in some hot water.

Personally, I really like the idea of a fold down wedge, like the Tarac Alpha combined with an LPVO, especially something like the new higher magnification ones. For example, with a LPVO that has some sort of a small mrad-based reticle, I can use the Tarac to switch zero to 600 yards and then use mil-holds for correction around that. I'll probably experiment with that a little when I test Razor Gen 3 and Stryker HD.

ILya

koskin, Now you're a legal expert? interesting. while I do read your optics reviews I always thought something wasn't quite right. proclaiming to be able to read the patent and determine who is entitled to what is a new one for me. YES it matters what the patent says but at this point it really doesn't. The fact is unless these other parties have deep pockets they will be run over by legal fees. NF can most likely break them with countless legal motions, Worse yet for them is most likely it will take years for the matter to be resolved.

patent and trademark law is very complex, There is also a chance that a fight with nightforce could weaken the patent they have as well. so no only is there a fight that is damaging, The courts could also rule that parts of the patent are striken. Nothing is decided here, Koskin I recommend studying the word adjudication, It means an official determination by the court. you or I have no idea the outcome of that, nor does even the best patent attorney and even if they had a very good idea of what they thought the outcome would be they would guard that opinion and use words like should, potentially, etc.

 

[b6graham]

koskin, Now you're a legal expert? interesting. while I do read your optics reviews I always thought something wasn't quite right. proclaiming to be able to read the patent and determine who is entitled to what is a new one for me. YES it matters what the patent says but at this point it really doesn't. The fact is unless these other parties have deep pockets they will be run over by legal fees. NF can most likely break them with countless legal motions, Worse yet for them is most likely it will take years for the matter to be resolved.

patent and trademark law is very complex, There is also a chance that a fight with nightforce could weaken the patent they have as well. so no only is there a fight that is damaging, The courts could also rule that parts of the patent are striken. Nothing is decided here, Koskin I recommend studying the word adjudication, It means an official determination by the court. you or I have no idea the outcome of that, nor does even the best patent attorney and even if they had a very good idea of what they thought the outcome would be they would guard that opinion and use words like should, potentially, etc.

well you jumped off the deep end for no reason. solid reading comprehension skills though. 10/10 well done.solid post.

 

[Dthomas3523]

koskin, Now you're a legal expert? interesting. while I do read your optics reviews I always thought something wasn't quite right. proclaiming to be able to read the patent and determine who is entitled to what is a new one for me. YES it matters what the patent says but at this point it really doesn't. The fact is unless these other parties have deep pockets they will be run over by legal fees. NF can most likely break them with countless legal motions, Worse yet for them is most likely it will take years for the matter to be resolved.

patent and trademark law is very complex, There is also a chance that a fight with nightforce could weaken the patent they have as well. so no only is there a fight that is damaging, The courts could also rule that parts of the patent are striken. Nothing is decided here, Koskin I recommend studying the word adjudication, It means an official determination by the court. you or I have no idea the outcome of that, nor does even the best patent attorney and even if they had a very good idea of what they thought the outcome would be they would guard that opinion and use words like should, potentially, etc.

You wasted all that to tell him what he already said?

Next time when you’re waiting around to jump on someone you don’t like, wait for a better post/opportunity.

Go back to recommending huskemaw scopes, it suits you.

 

[cummins cowboy]

interesting the point about lawsuits and patents are ignored, typical of the internet forums, focus on the shiny object. I shouldn't have been so harsh on koskin, probably a great guy. koshkin have a good day BTW.

like most things legal though and this is probably not an exception. if a company goes offering something for sale and someone comes along and says dude that is my idea. Its pretty typical for each camp to stake their flags and not move despite better judgement. NF had to know what they were doing here. they must feel confident in their plan.

 

[Dthomas3523]

interesting the point about lawsuits and patents are ignored, typical of the internet forums, focus on the shiny object. I shouldn't have been so harsh on koskin, probably a great guy. koshkin have a good day BTW.

like most things legal though and this is probably not an exception. if a company goes offering something for sale and someone comes along and says dude that is my idea. Its pretty typical for each camp to stake their flags and not move despite better judgement. NF had to know what they were doing here. they must feel confident in their plan.

The point was, he already made that point, before you made a point, to point out, that you didn’t read his point, that he pointed out before you attempted to point out that he didn’t point it out.

 

[notorious]

The point was, he already made that point, before you made a point, to point out, that you didn’t read his point, that he pointed out before you attempted to point out that he didn’t point it out.

 

[ckirkc]

Patents are a tricky thing, looking over tacomhq's website I noticed a lack if patent claims or markings. I dug around a bit and i could be wrong but it seems someone unrelated to tacomhq owns the wedge prism intellectual property as it pertains to rifle applications. It appears this guy established ip on the tech back in 2014 and improved on the original patent in the years following, right up to last month. See: lucida research llc
https://patents.justia.com/assignee/lucida-research-llc

 

[Ravenworks]

like most things legal though and this is probably not an exception. if a company goes offering something for sale and someone comes along and says dude that is my idea. Its pretty typical for each camp to stake their flags and not move despite better judgement. NF had to know what they were doing here. they must feel confident in their plan.

I pretty much spelled out the underhanded shit NF is up to.
They have a shit pile of money that will be used to do nothing but wear the other guy out.

 

[Lowlight]

I have not read everything you all are talking about but because these last few posts focus on patents I will add this if it was not already discussed,

I spoke with John at Shot and knew about the NF device for over a year,

John and NF had an NDA in place and John has the original Alpha style device he gave NF to reference,

there was paper signed by both parties prior to this,

patent wise, that might have to be sorted, but they did enter into a written agreement, signing an NDA.

I don't see this ending well as John is fired up and showed no sign of letting it go.

 

[b6graham]

ouchies

 

[Dthomas3523]

Let’s see if people start talking about boycotting NF like they do when a Chinese company does this.

I’m betting the fanboy ism is going to be strong and they will conveniently overlook what is at a minimum a gigantically shitty thing for NF to do, if not illegal.

 

[Lowlight]

I honestly didn't see any public backlash at Shot

the few who interact with both parties were basically just shaking their heads

 

[Dthomas3523]

I honestly didn't see any public backlash at Shot

the few who interact with both parties were basically just shaking their heads

I just find it interesting companies people like get a pass with consumers.

Have nothing personal against NF, but it’s a shitty move and I will likely choose not to support them in the future.

 

[LawnMM]

This sort of thing just hurts everyone.

 

[JB.IC]

I don’t feel hurt. Is something wrong with me?

 

[Nik H]

This reminds me of the PRIME thread regarding the dissolution of the agreements with RUAG. Everyone was jumping on RUAG and taking Jim's side. I said in that thread that taking sides means squat when coming from outside observers who don't know the detail. Fast forward to today...

1. Case was settled and Jim is back stronger than ever (Thank God)
2. He has a new relationship with RUAG Whether he uses it or not is immaterial.

In the world of intellectual property cases, a slight modification to the original patent can usually be enough to invalidate the charge of patent infringement and the associated lawsuit.

1. New coatings
2. New mounting system
3. New adjustment system
4. New materials

Good luck. A court of law will figure it out. Odds are we will never hear the details

I wish both sides a happy reconciliation

 

[b6graham]

This reminds me of the PRIME thread regarding the dissolution of the agreements with RUAG. Everyone was jumping on RUAG and taking Jim's side. I said in that thread that taking sides means squat when coming from outside observers who don't know the detail. Fast forward to today...

1. Case was settled and Jim is back stronger than ever (Thank God)
2. He has a new relationship with RUAG Whether he uses it or not is immaterial.

In the world of intellectual property cases, a slight modification to the original patent can usually be enough to invalidate the charge of patent infringement and the associated lawsuit.

1. New coatings
2. New mounting system
3. New adjustment system
4. New materials

Good luck. A court of law will figure it out. Odds are we will never hear the details

I wish both sides a happy reconciliation

didn't his new group buy show that he is in fact using his new relatio nship with RUAG?

 

[Nik H]

didn't his new group buy show that he is in fact using his new relatio nship with RUAG?

True I believe....I was only interested in the new formula

 

[Lowlight]

he offered it, simply because of the price point

but it's not been used all Prime is US right now

RUAG came to him after with a cherry offer, he felt compelled to offer it, people opted for the US ammo only

 

[Tokay444]

Let’s see if people start talking about boycotting NF like they do when a Chinese company does this.

I’m betting the fanboy ism is going to be strong and they will conveniently overlook what is at a minimum a gigantically shitty thing for NF to do, if not illegal.

Same as they’re all doing with the Vudoo magazine infringement. I mean fuck. The Zersplatt accepts Vudoo mags.

 

[b6graham]

Same as they’re all doing with the Vudoo magazine infringement. I mean fuck. The Zersplatt accepts Vudoo mags.

who has agreements with vudoo and who doesnt

 

[Lowlight]

honestly let Vudoo and Zermatt work it out before you start talking out your ass

the Zermatt mags are a work of art and while aspect are similar the magazine they built is next level.

I hope they work it out, we'll all win

 

[LawnMM]

Every chassis and bottom metal on Earth accepts AI mags, doesn't mean they're infringing on AI.

 

[Tokay444]

It’s one thing to make an AICS rimfire mag. It’s entirely different to make your action accept someone else’s protected property, and then advertise its compatibility with it your release.
I hope they work it out too. More options is always better for the customer.