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Gunsmithing Nightmare gunsmith Northwest Precision Rifles * REFUND RECEIVED
- Thread starter hoguer
- Start date
The OP waited 8 months to complain. I don't see a problem if the seller waits 8 months to decide if he is going to repair it or refund his money. I might even argue that in the 8 months the OP had possession anything might have happened to the rifle. If I were the judge the best the OP could expect is his rifle back with the OP paying return shipping.
that is a complete bullshit statement.
if i buy a new truck, park it in my driveway for 8 months....then when i get to drive it, i find the car is misfiring and and wont shift into gear......the dealership cant claim that they are going to take 8 months to fix my car under warranty because ive had it for 8 months.
also, sure....anything could have happened to the rifle in that time.........but that doesnt explain the cause of the scope rail screws and recoil lugs......
I recently bought a new BDL style trigger guard assembly from SWFA. I didn't attempt to use it for almost a month after I received it and found an issue with it at that time. I then contacted them and was told my 10 day inspection period had expired.
SWFA didn't tell you to return it for an immediate refund and once they received it completely fuck with you and tell you that you will get your money back when they feel like it.
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so your completely ignoring the fact that I was told to return it for an immediate refund....
I'll preface by stating that I have no dog in this fight. That said: I've had clients call almost a year after receiving their gun and presenting a problem. Be it they were on deployment or life just happened and they couldn't go enjoy it right away.
It's those moments in business where you meet a T intersection and you can define how your going to do stuff. By and large the gun culture that plays at the upper level is pretty good about not being a bunch of shit heads. -Just to mean that guys typically don't call us to bitch unless they are having a legitimate problem.
As the conditions are explained in the body of this thread: (and the assumption is made its been accurately relayed without bias)
Regardless of if it was 8 months or ten years. If you pay someone for something, receive it, return it, then get nothing you are being stolen from. At the bare minimum the client should have his property returned to him. Hell, the vendor could send it freight collect if he's dead set against absorbing anymore costs. Hanging onto it and falling off the planet is theft. -A spade is a spade.
Again, assuming all of this is been accurately conveyed: This kind of stuff irritates the hell out of me. Not because I am on some kind of crusade. I am far from that noble. Its like getting a dog from the pound. One that's been thumped on by a previous owner. It takes a great deal of effort to gain that animal's trust. The same kind of thing applies here. I deal with an alarming volume of phone calls where clients have been withered into "pound dog mentality" where they feel compelled to grill me over whether or not they are going to get a fair shake from my business.
Keep in mind, they called me....but I (and many others well vetted in this trade) play the game and waste valuable time (hopefully) saying the right things in the effort of capturing a sale and moving the business forward.
It just sucks that it has to come to that as the result of grown men acting like little finks.
It's those moments in business where you meet a T intersection and you can define how your going to do stuff. By and large the gun culture that plays at the upper level is pretty good about not being a bunch of shit heads. -Just to mean that guys typically don't call us to bitch unless they are having a legitimate problem.
As the conditions are explained in the body of this thread: (and the assumption is made its been accurately relayed without bias)
Regardless of if it was 8 months or ten years. If you pay someone for something, receive it, return it, then get nothing you are being stolen from. At the bare minimum the client should have his property returned to him. Hell, the vendor could send it freight collect if he's dead set against absorbing anymore costs. Hanging onto it and falling off the planet is theft. -A spade is a spade.
Again, assuming all of this is been accurately conveyed: This kind of stuff irritates the hell out of me. Not because I am on some kind of crusade. I am far from that noble. Its like getting a dog from the pound. One that's been thumped on by a previous owner. It takes a great deal of effort to gain that animal's trust. The same kind of thing applies here. I deal with an alarming volume of phone calls where clients have been withered into "pound dog mentality" where they feel compelled to grill me over whether or not they are going to get a fair shake from my business.
Keep in mind, they called me....but I (and many others well vetted in this trade) play the game and waste valuable time (hopefully) saying the right things in the effort of capturing a sale and moving the business forward.
It just sucks that it has to come to that as the result of grown men acting like little finks.
I am nobody but a redneck with a bunch of guns but this stinks to high hell for the gunsmith. Yes 8 months is a decent amount of time to discover these issues but as Chad from LRI just said above shit happens in life. Good customer service would have been to work with the customerto fix it and move on versus the hit to ones reputation in an industry where talk is rampant.
The fucking BA was cerakoted prior to delivery and still is completely intact from what I can see. I have yet to see an action wrench that could magically loosen a barrel less making a single mark to the coating. Same goes for any physical impact of great enough energy to displace the recoil lug. The scope base holes are advertised as being 8/40 as delivered so under what wet dream would anyone claim the OP somehow had a hand in them being off center? It's not like he potentially got drunked up and tried to use his Makita handheld to open them up, they were already advertised to be 8/40 and the OP's pictures show clean threads so he didn't fuck them up!
The fact the cerakote to the BA is intact in its entirety without damage clearly shows these issues arose at the gunsmith and not during the time of the OP's possession, yet it appears this gunsmith is willing to risk his reputation over one single rifle which makes me just shake my head.
It seems it would have been easier to work with the OP and fix these issues rather then be a shitheel and get blasted on the internet. One would have to have bumped their head in the god damn shower to think that even this single negative review posted on a site as big as SH hasn't cost this gunsmith significantly more then the cost of repairs.
in fact I guarantee it has as this gunsmith is semi local to me and 3 of my friends getting into into precision rifles have asked about using this smith since this was posted and I linked them this thread. Over 8k in custom rifles went to other smiths in the past week!
The fucking BA was cerakoted prior to delivery and still is completely intact from what I can see. I have yet to see an action wrench that could magically loosen a barrel less making a single mark to the coating. Same goes for any physical impact of great enough energy to displace the recoil lug. The scope base holes are advertised as being 8/40 as delivered so under what wet dream would anyone claim the OP somehow had a hand in them being off center? It's not like he potentially got drunked up and tried to use his Makita handheld to open them up, they were already advertised to be 8/40 and the OP's pictures show clean threads so he didn't fuck them up!
The fact the cerakote to the BA is intact in its entirety without damage clearly shows these issues arose at the gunsmith and not during the time of the OP's possession, yet it appears this gunsmith is willing to risk his reputation over one single rifle which makes me just shake my head.
It seems it would have been easier to work with the OP and fix these issues rather then be a shitheel and get blasted on the internet. One would have to have bumped their head in the god damn shower to think that even this single negative review posted on a site as big as SH hasn't cost this gunsmith significantly more then the cost of repairs.
in fact I guarantee it has as this gunsmith is semi local to me and 3 of my friends getting into into precision rifles have asked about using this smith since this was posted and I linked them this thread. Over 8k in custom rifles went to other smiths in the past week!
Excellent post.
I have a rule I live by " Do the right think, regardless of the cost"
I agree with this 100%. Here are my rules of engagement:
1. Always choose to deal with locals you can get hold of within 24 hours, and take care of business in person.
2. Do not trust anybody, unless they prove on practice that you can trust them, or you can find a LOT of positive feedback as a reference. Like for Chad from LRI, or for Dave Tooley, or for anybody else with a real good reputation, and for a long time.
3. If it is important to you, check it out many times from different directions before placing your order.
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Not sure exactly what tooling you are using, but I never mark up properly applied finishes, nor impact a recoil lug while removing/installing a barrel.
Update.
Unfortunately for the same reason it took me so long to bring the rifle out to find the "problem areas" I have been so busy this has fallen back a few notches in the priority list for the past few weeks.
Now im back at it. I'm researching the Small Claims court system in Idaho and it is looking like I can request a trial by phone, which saves me a LOT of driving time, and potentially unreimbursed costs even if the judgement is in my favor, so I have that going for me.
On a strange note, tonight I just received this email from Earl:
"Thomas, a money order will be on it's way to you very soon. I am working on this as fast as I can. I will email you, the minute I send it out. Thanks."
by the tone of it, I'm guessing someone has turned him onto this thread, and he has realized what an ass he has been. I truely hope he is genuine, but with our history I have very little expectation of follow through. My reply email was:
"Earl,
I appreciate the follow up. I have been extremely bothered by how this entire situation has been handled, and I can no longer accept "on its way very soon" as a timeline for refund that I can put any faith in. I need a specific date that I can expect payment to be mailed on, or else I have to follow through with escalating this issue through the small claims court system.
I understand everyone has personal struggles that they cannot relay to current and past customers, and I genuinely hope this is the reason that we have come to this current state, but I have exhausted my last bit of patience in this matter and I need resolution. And I need it soon.
Please let me know specifically when "very soon" is so I can hopefully see the light at the end of this tunnel.
-Thomas Xxxxx"
i know a lot of people are going to say I'm being to leinient, but i truely am just looking for a clean resolution, and a LITTLE more patience MAY deliver that.
I will be impatiently awaiting his response....
I'm not going to comment directly on the current issue. And the comment I do make may or may not apply here.
Being a relative old timer on the internet (at least since the mid 90s), I have formed the impression that gunsmithing is not a particularly lucrative occupation for many in the field. And that financial ruin often appears to be one bad event away.
Being a relative old timer on the internet (at least since the mid 90s), I have formed the impression that gunsmithing is not a particularly lucrative occupation for many in the field. And that financial ruin often appears to be one bad event away.
Just received another communication, and replied.
From Earl:
"Ok, I am trying my best, to do whats right here, and have gone above, and beyond, even working with you on this at all. Your pushy emails, do not set good with me at all. Maybe we talk on the phone, and work out a plan? Could be, I am taking your communication wrong. I have a long list of clients to help, I can not put you to the front of the line, just because you think you are deserving. Let's be fair about this, as you are NOT, my only customer. 509-XXX-XXXX Let's talk tomorrow morning? Thanks"
and my reply:
"Earl,
I would prefer to keep all communications via email. The agreement that you proposed, as I have quoted in past emails, was that upon your receiving the rifle you would be sending me a refund.
At this point I have no interest in maintaining ownership of the rifle due to the issues I sent you photos of, our current predicament, and the fact we agreed that a refund would be issued when you received the rifle. The terms were: return rifle, receive refund. Only after sending it in it became: when I get to it; I have to check it out and shoot it; what if it still shoots well, etc etc.
I simply want what we agreed upon. You have the rifle in your possession, so I have completed my part. Now I would expect you to follow through with the refund as you promised in our emails."
From Earl:
"Ok, I am trying my best, to do whats right here, and have gone above, and beyond, even working with you on this at all. Your pushy emails, do not set good with me at all. Maybe we talk on the phone, and work out a plan? Could be, I am taking your communication wrong. I have a long list of clients to help, I can not put you to the front of the line, just because you think you are deserving. Let's be fair about this, as you are NOT, my only customer. 509-XXX-XXXX Let's talk tomorrow morning? Thanks"
and my reply:
"Earl,
I would prefer to keep all communications via email. The agreement that you proposed, as I have quoted in past emails, was that upon your receiving the rifle you would be sending me a refund.
At this point I have no interest in maintaining ownership of the rifle due to the issues I sent you photos of, our current predicament, and the fact we agreed that a refund would be issued when you received the rifle. The terms were: return rifle, receive refund. Only after sending it in it became: when I get to it; I have to check it out and shoot it; what if it still shoots well, etc etc.
I simply want what we agreed upon. You have the rifle in your possession, so I have completed my part. Now I would expect you to follow through with the refund as you promised in our emails."
Wow.. I think you responded correctly. What a toolbag. So I thought this guy was in Washington... I also see you mentioned he was in Idaho. Where is this guy?
Wow I'm from Spokane.. can't believe I've never heard of this guy. I'll be in Rathdrum in two weeks.
I live in Coeur D Alene (20 min from Rathdrum), good to know about this sort of business dealing.
I am persuing the legal route of getting my money returned to me. I'll give a update once that avenue is developed a little more.
*Update 9/7*
Earl has been served with small claims papers. He has 20 days to settle or respond before there is a default judgement in my favor. I have not contacted him since our last email exchange. We will see what his response is and if I will be making a trip to Idaho for a trial. I feel very confident in my case and have the original listing and all of the emails I feel are proving his guilt, but I've never had to do anything like this before so we will see what happens. Hopefully he comes to his senses and I get a refund and can be done with this.
Earl has been served with small claims papers. He has 20 days to settle or respond before there is a default judgement in my favor. I have not contacted him since our last email exchange. We will see what his response is and if I will be making a trip to Idaho for a trial. I feel very confident in my case and have the original listing and all of the emails I feel are proving his guilt, but I've never had to do anything like this before so we will see what happens. Hopefully he comes to his senses and I get a refund and can be done with this.
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Earl may understand the legal process better than you think.
So you are already invested in time and a little money, if any, to file and serve a small claims suit in another state. IF and when you win in Idaho, by default with non-appearance or by judge ruling then you have to begin to spend the money to "certify" the money judgement. Then you get to hire an out-of-state collection attorney to initiate the collecting aspect of being the creditor on a money judgment. As it is a relatively small $ amount, there will be no attorney contingency basis on which to proceed i.e. your out-of-pocket expenditures are just starting; need to pay in advance an attorney retainer to cover all the various related court filing costs, depositions, interrogatories, admissions etc. in the process of "discovery"to reveal any of personal / business available assets that could possibly be attached to satisfy your money judgment. IF he is already judgment-free i.e. judgment proof, then you will have spent more in "discovering this fact", a lot more money than you have / had invested in your initial gunsmith journey. If he is available for satisfying judgment on the original claim then a few years from now you may recoup your money but never your time in anguish for pursuing the process. It always sounds easy on the front end as few on-the-clock collection attorneys will dissuade your from your worthy pursuit !
So you are already invested in time and a little money, if any, to file and serve a small claims suit in another state. IF and when you win in Idaho, by default with non-appearance or by judge ruling then you have to begin to spend the money to "certify" the money judgement. Then you get to hire an out-of-state collection attorney to initiate the collecting aspect of being the creditor on a money judgment. As it is a relatively small $ amount, there will be no attorney contingency basis on which to proceed i.e. your out-of-pocket expenditures are just starting; need to pay in advance an attorney retainer to cover all the various related court filing costs, depositions, interrogatories, admissions etc. in the process of "discovery"to reveal any of personal / business available assets that could possibly be attached to satisfy your money judgment. IF he is already judgment-free i.e. judgment proof, then you will have spent more in "discovering this fact", a lot more money than you have / had invested in your initial gunsmith journey. If he is available for satisfying judgment on the original claim then a few years from now you may recoup your money but never your time in anguish for pursuing the process. It always sounds easy on the front end as few on-the-clock collection attorneys will dissuade your from your worthy pursuit !
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I understand. This is much more about principal than money now. I am not starving being out a grand. This is to make a point that there are consequences.
What strikeeagle is saying is... You will really be frustrated if you spend thousands of dollars and don't collect anything. Imagine this crook working out of a rented building, living in a rented house, driving a leased vehicle, paying his daughter 75 grand a year to sweep the floor and having a tax lien hanging over everything he owns. I don't want to reread the whole thread but have you thought about calling the sheriff of his county and seeing if they will with a telephone deposition and press charges for theft of your property??
Your collection attorney(s) will sense your rabid purpose and will offer using every collection technique in the law library to support you in this nobel quest of "principle", as long as the monthly invoices continue to be paid. That's how they pay their electric bill. However, every month that goes by and legal invoice paid extracts an incalculable daily toll of personal aggravation and indigestion at the family dinner setting. Sometimes its just best to take your $1k education regarding this business and move on. I am pretty sure he did not build whatever gunsmith practice he has based on referrals from the SnipersHide forum site. At best you may cost him future loss of earnings by alerting those on this forum regarding his surly business manners.
It is a contract dispute, not theft. I sent it willingly. That is what I was told by my friends in LE.
He also appears to be employed at a full time day job on top of doing shade tree gunsmithing, so I believe he has a regular paycheck coming in.
I found out I can represent my case by phone, and that will likely be the rout I take.
how frustrating. wish i knew how to counsel you.
I tried collection services, they're nice but both times they never were able to collect.
I tried the lawyer route, ended up paying a lot of money for a letter that was probably thrown in the garbage.
The two times i won in small claims i never recovered a penny. Really disappointed and not sure why i always failed despite having won.
I bet sometimes the process works, it must occasionally work? maybe the judge will help?
i think the only advice i could give you is to try to speak with the judge BEFORE you leave court and explain that you'ld appreciate if he/she could help strengthen your ability to collect, not sure if they could dock his pay or hurt his license but maybe?
Once you get home it seems like its too late to do anything.
I tried collection services, they're nice but both times they never were able to collect.
I tried the lawyer route, ended up paying a lot of money for a letter that was probably thrown in the garbage.
The two times i won in small claims i never recovered a penny. Really disappointed and not sure why i always failed despite having won.
I bet sometimes the process works, it must occasionally work? maybe the judge will help?
i think the only advice i could give you is to try to speak with the judge BEFORE you leave court and explain that you'ld appreciate if he/she could help strengthen your ability to collect, not sure if they could dock his pay or hurt his license but maybe?
Once you get home it seems like its too late to do anything.
^^^^ A judge can only award a judgment if deemed appropriate for the claimant; there is nothing a judge can do to bolster your ability to collect at the time of judgment. Subsequently that judge may be the one that hears and rules on your actions during the judgment collection process.
Once you get your money judgment order from the judge, you must then pay a fee to file a "judgment lien certificate" with the Clerk of the Court. This lien "certificate" is the paper instrument for your attorney to assist you in the discovery process as to whether the debtor has any assets sufficient to satisfy the amount $$ of your judgment lien. The assets can be money assets (bank accounts, 401k, stocks etc) or real property (home, land) or personal property (car, guns!, jewelry, clothes). The judgment lien will allow typically a sheriff to confiscate / levy personal property to satisfy the $$. Bank accounts etc. can have attachments, wages can be garnished etc. etc.
Like I mentioned before, obtaining a court "win" is just the first easier step in the process. Actually collecting any monies on your judgment lien can be the hard / impossible part of the process, as well as the most frustrating.
Once you get your money judgment order from the judge, you must then pay a fee to file a "judgment lien certificate" with the Clerk of the Court. This lien "certificate" is the paper instrument for your attorney to assist you in the discovery process as to whether the debtor has any assets sufficient to satisfy the amount $$ of your judgment lien. The assets can be money assets (bank accounts, 401k, stocks etc) or real property (home, land) or personal property (car, guns!, jewelry, clothes). The judgment lien will allow typically a sheriff to confiscate / levy personal property to satisfy the $$. Bank accounts etc. can have attachments, wages can be garnished etc. etc.
Like I mentioned before, obtaining a court "win" is just the first easier step in the process. Actually collecting any monies on your judgment lien can be the hard / impossible part of the process, as well as the most frustrating.
here is the information from the Idaho Small Claims Court on collection of a judgement, and as of now Earl has not responded to the court in regards to the claim.
"If you do not pay the judgment in full, there are four ways the plaintiff can execute on the judgment.
- The plaintiff can garnish your wages. (When your wages are garnished, your employer withholds part of your paycheck, and pays the money to the sheriff, who pays it to the plaintiff.
- The plaintiff can attach your bank account(s). When your bank account is attached, the bank pays the money you have in your account to the sheriff, who pays it to the plaintiff.
- The plaintiff can attach your personal property. When your personal property is attached, the sheriff takes the property, sells it at auction, and gives the proceeds to the plaintiff. (Personal property is property other than land or buildings.)
- The plaintiff can file a lien against real property, and foreclose on the lien. (Real property is land or buildings; foreclosure is the process of selling the property to pay the judgment lien.)
You can also be ordered to come to court for a debtor’s examination, so the plaintiff can find out what you have that can be used to pay the judgment. If you do not come to court for the examination, you can be held in contempt, and a warrant can be issued for your arrest.INSTRUCTIONS FOR DEFENDANTS IN SMALL CLAIMS CASES PAGE 5 CAO SC INSTRUCTIONS 1-2 07/01/2017
If the plaintiff executes on the judgment by garnishing wages, or attaching your bank accounts or other personal property, the sheriff will serve you with copies of the plaintiff’s execution papers.
If the sheriff serves you with execution papers, you can avoid having your wages garnished or your personal property seized by paying the sheriff the amount of money you owe. The amount of money you owe will include any fees the plaintiff paid the court clerk or the sheriff to execute on the judgment, and these amounts will be stated on the execution papers.
The sheriff will also serve you with a notice that contains important information about your legal rights. There are some types of money or property that are exempt, and can’t be taken to satisfy the judgment. The legal notice has more information about the types of money or property that are exempt.
If exempt money or property is garnished or attached, there are steps you must follow to file a claim of exemption with the sheriff. The legal notice has information about how to file a claim of exemption.
"If you do not pay the judgment in full, there are four ways the plaintiff can execute on the judgment.
- The plaintiff can garnish your wages. (When your wages are garnished, your employer withholds part of your paycheck, and pays the money to the sheriff, who pays it to the plaintiff.
- The plaintiff can attach your bank account(s). When your bank account is attached, the bank pays the money you have in your account to the sheriff, who pays it to the plaintiff.
- The plaintiff can attach your personal property. When your personal property is attached, the sheriff takes the property, sells it at auction, and gives the proceeds to the plaintiff. (Personal property is property other than land or buildings.)
- The plaintiff can file a lien against real property, and foreclose on the lien. (Real property is land or buildings; foreclosure is the process of selling the property to pay the judgment lien.)
You can also be ordered to come to court for a debtor’s examination, so the plaintiff can find out what you have that can be used to pay the judgment. If you do not come to court for the examination, you can be held in contempt, and a warrant can be issued for your arrest.INSTRUCTIONS FOR DEFENDANTS IN SMALL CLAIMS CASES PAGE 5 CAO SC INSTRUCTIONS 1-2 07/01/2017
If the plaintiff executes on the judgment by garnishing wages, or attaching your bank accounts or other personal property, the sheriff will serve you with copies of the plaintiff’s execution papers.
If the sheriff serves you with execution papers, you can avoid having your wages garnished or your personal property seized by paying the sheriff the amount of money you owe. The amount of money you owe will include any fees the plaintiff paid the court clerk or the sheriff to execute on the judgment, and these amounts will be stated on the execution papers.
The sheriff will also serve you with a notice that contains important information about your legal rights. There are some types of money or property that are exempt, and can’t be taken to satisfy the judgment. The legal notice has more information about the types of money or property that are exempt.
If exempt money or property is garnished or attached, there are steps you must follow to file a claim of exemption with the sheriff. The legal notice has information about how to file a claim of exemption.
Glad to hear you are still in the fight hoguer!
Has a judgment been levied?
I like how Idaho handles collection of judgment!
Best of luck and continued success, thanks for updating us.
Has a judgment been levied?
I like how Idaho handles collection of judgment!
Best of luck and continued success, thanks for updating us.
Tomorrow will be the date of default for Earl not responding to the claim (20 days since it was received) Then I have to wait for the judge to sign it, they said it could take a day or two. Then I can follow the above methods of regaining my money
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If you get get his personal property see if the attorney will specifically go after his lathe... that'll teach him.
Haha. When I was researching his info that came up. I figured he was the same guy but wasn't sure. Thanks for the clarification.
update on the Small Claims case.
Earl did not respond in the 20 days, but the case is not quite buttoned up. Apparently a form is missing so I had to print and sign one last piece of paper. Once they receive it it will be submitted to the Judge, hopefully next week. Then the collections begin...
I don't know if it's been said above, but if you get property, and possibly also through garnishment or attachment, you can also include "reasonable" costs for cost of recovery. That's even in a small claims court.
I say good luck to you. My wife wrote several stories for an online magazine, Go Idaho, and never got paid the last 2k he owed her. That snake was smart enough to hide his identity from everyone, including his staff down in Boise. Who he worked with physically. They all got stiffed too. ...So they said.
I say good luck to you. My wife wrote several stories for an online magazine, Go Idaho, and never got paid the last 2k he owed her. That snake was smart enough to hide his identity from everyone, including his staff down in Boise. Who he worked with physically. They all got stiffed too. ...So they said.
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huguer
what area of Idaho? I live in the I.F. area of Idaho.
It would be cool to have someone else in the area to go long range shooting with.
what area of Idaho? I live in the I.F. area of Idaho.
It would be cool to have someone else in the area to go long range shooting with.
