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No more Scout Snipers
- Thread starter USMCSGT0331
- Start date
Im not saying that, the navy is.
This is one of the opinions I’ve read from inside the navy about 2030.
…Force Design 2030 created stand-in forces, which are intended to be relatively small, highly mobile, lethal units that are to operate within the enemy’s “weapons engagement zone,” primarily in the Western Pacific. A stand-in force is specifically organized, trained and equipped for a narrow range of defensive missions in a maritime environment. Again, a stand-in force lacks any flexibility in mission capability. It is a one-trick pony….
…There are a number of other concerns we have with Force Design 2030, to include the abandoning of the principles of maneuver warfare, isolated units having to remain undetected to survive, the over reliance on technology performing as promised and the almost impossible task of resupplying far-flung units over vast distances….
There is more and not saying they are right, but 2030 against China mean we have small groups of troops waiting in caves with limited resources. Either they are taken out day 1, or they are sacrificed day 2 because we can’t resupply. Possibly they roll into indigenous forces as a multiplier but in its face they will be small in numbers and lightly armed.
I agree 100% once on the ground snipers are very useful but if we cannot resupply, communicate or use that info because we are 300 miles off shore it’s prob not exploitable.
One of the growing thoughts is to blockade china once they take Taiwan or it becomes a stalemate. We blockade china from Any imports and exports via the ocean. They don’t have the blue water navy to protect shipping lines even if other countries are willing to move material, food, fuel.
When the Mk13 Mod 7 rifles hit the shelves at the CMP
So we are going to make the Philippine Islands circa 1942 our war fighting doctrine…..
The people that were there will tell you it sucks.
I know you were not positing your own ideas, you were expressing the views of Berger basically.
Berger thinks tanks are a vulnerable asset on the battlefield and he may be right when it comes to peer to peer conflict.
Our next peer to peer conflict is going to be subterranean. The last man standing will rise from the shit of the sewers into a wasteland to proclaim his moral superiority and Lordship of a disaster.
It is like they are going all in on existential war and abandoning the ideas of small scale conflict that have prevented the superpowers from actually engaging one another.
The beauty of the Marine Corps was it's entire package capability to deploy some serious ass kicking by assets that were always at hand floating somewhere around the globe.
No need to arrange co-ordination with fixed wing, armor, or artillery assets to support your assault force it was all self contained.
If they are of the mindset now we need "hold on" forces, rubber boats being better protection than armor, than they have abandoned the idea of limited conflict.
Why?
Do they realize the danger? There is only one option.
If you want to change the world you need to start from scratch.
One way to assure that.
General Krulak's drive was to ensure the Marine Corps remained relevant to the American people as a war fighting organization.
2030 ensures the Marine Corps fades to being irrelevant. That police call is tight though.
2030 ensures the Marine Corps fades to being irrelevant. That police call is tight though.
Too bad I can't use both the laughing and crying emoji to reply.
I got an idea!
Let's use the sniper trained guy behind the lines to enforce policy on the front lines.
Anyone disagreeing will become an objective for the behind the lines trained individual skills.
Don't want the guys up front realizing their force multiplication skills can be used fore and aft.
We need cannon fodder for attrition war.
No more Hector Cafferatas single handily stacking a company of enemy.
Carrying a simple directive to trim school expenses too much am I?
Let's use the sniper trained guy behind the lines to enforce policy on the front lines.
Anyone disagreeing will become an objective for the behind the lines trained individual skills.
Don't want the guys up front realizing their force multiplication skills can be used fore and aft.
We need cannon fodder for attrition war.
No more Hector Cafferatas single handily stacking a company of enemy.
Carrying a simple directive to trim school expenses too much am I?
"Book of the Month" Battalion.
While I agree the flip side is everyone complains “we are fighting the last war”
If we believe that, then thinking the marines will be able to get in country without full coordination with all available assets is incorrect.
There wasn’t a single bit of opposition for moving large scale material and machines for 20 years WOT. That will not happen with China. Marines will die and sink to the bottom of the ocean before they see even see land.
The next war will be near peer, so we have to be forward thinking.
It’s a lot easier to pivot to land on a beach compared to pivoting to over the horizon engagement when pivoting from a beach assault.
I don’t have the answers but thinking that treating marines like SF and hoping 30 groups of marines sprinkled around the pacific will do anything but be casualties is just not correct.
Marines with patriot batteries or javelins waiting for Chinese landing craft will be targeted by cruise missiles minute one.
Doesn't make sense.
Why are we preparing for some existential doomsday war with China while being the best funding source for the PLA?
We are eliminating Battalion level sniper assets before Walmart?
Dumb.
This is the end result of a decades long campaign by belt fed ring knockers, ever since Jim Land was a Captain and Hathcock was an MP. The 0302 MOS as a whole has despised Scout Snipers since their most recent inception in Vietnam, and throughout the wars have sought to minimize their employment and success, at the cost of American lives and battlefield victories. They hate what they cannot control and they hate what makes them look bad, because a proper Scout Sniper team will provide better battlefield information to the Deuce than a company commander, provide better supporting arms employment than any line officer (and at many times better than any officer FO or FAC), and they can have better dominance over a wide swath of battlefield than an infantry platoon. That's not how officers get medals and promotions.
The Corps is getting exactly what they've been working towards for years. They go out of their way to force out strong NCO warfighters. They'll bitch and moan when those with advanced training and a lot of combat experience leave active duty to go contracting or spook, but if those men were to stay in the first thing they get told is "You need a B-Billet or diversify your career, welcome to recruiting duty." So instead of fighting with those NCOs, they'll just not create them in the first place. There's very good reasoning for this, it's about control over enlisted men.
Shit like this has nothing to do with funding or the future of the battlefield, as SSBC funding is a drop in the ocean of DoD's budget. There will always be small wars to fight, embassies to defend, and the need for force multipliers on the major battlefield. And let's not kid ourselves, a war with China will be thermonuclear, without a doubt. Tanks, ships and artillery will be irrelevant when it comes. And if history has taught us anything, it's to prepare for the war you don't expect to fight as much as the war you do. Closed minded commanders will perpetually fuck this principle up to the end of time.
But hey, I'm just another dinosaur 8541 with two CARs who hasn't worn a uniform in going on two decades. I could write a book about my disdain for Annapolis officers and their house boy SgtMaj they have to their left and slightly to the rear. I left that dumpster fire long ago for good reason, they can have their bullshit pool and drown in it.
The Corps is getting exactly what they've been working towards for years. They go out of their way to force out strong NCO warfighters. They'll bitch and moan when those with advanced training and a lot of combat experience leave active duty to go contracting or spook, but if those men were to stay in the first thing they get told is "You need a B-Billet or diversify your career, welcome to recruiting duty." So instead of fighting with those NCOs, they'll just not create them in the first place. There's very good reasoning for this, it's about control over enlisted men.
Shit like this has nothing to do with funding or the future of the battlefield, as SSBC funding is a drop in the ocean of DoD's budget. There will always be small wars to fight, embassies to defend, and the need for force multipliers on the major battlefield. And let's not kid ourselves, a war with China will be thermonuclear, without a doubt. Tanks, ships and artillery will be irrelevant when it comes. And if history has taught us anything, it's to prepare for the war you don't expect to fight as much as the war you do. Closed minded commanders will perpetually fuck this principle up to the end of time.
But hey, I'm just another dinosaur 8541 with two CARs who hasn't worn a uniform in going on two decades. I could write a book about my disdain for Annapolis officers and their house boy SgtMaj they have to their left and slightly to the rear. I left that dumpster fire long ago for good reason, they can have their bullshit pool and drown in it.
I'm sure they have, likely because peer 8541/0317 Gunners have been making them look like shit as well.
As an 0302 with a couple CAR’s myself I cannot disagree more with you. Aside from some random cowboy shit that was going on from time
to time, our SS platoons were the most requested asset we had, and were not despised by any 0302 I know or worked with.
Now the POS gunners on the other hand…
They use the phrase “Game-changer!” When referring to everything.
A smart move for the Marine Corps would be to eliminate the 8999 community and use that freed up end strength to beef up the cyber side.
Don’t confuse making sense with your own prejudices.
You should call up the pentagon and tell them what you think. I’m sure they’ll put you in their think tank.
Oh I forgot, you prob think they don’t know what they are doing either because you have the same level of intel.
It wasn’t 0802s who just cut them, it was 0302s. Field grade and above especially have, as a whole, have despised snipers. Company level on the battlefield, of course they love snipers, but as soon as they get to the rear they realize what builds their fitreps most, they’re quick to be counseled it’s not utilizing reconnaissance and sniper elements. Just like 0203 is a dead end career move, the ring knocker belt fed will kill off anything they don’t agree with.
Ok ok ok hear me out…I had a talk with Marie Kondo and I think this will spark joy.
We get them to take the line company HOGs and re-label them as “
️couts” (they just have to put tape over one of the bolts on all of their stuff)…
…then put them into a new platoon…which we’ll call a STA (Sneaky Tactical and Awesome) platoon. Then these Scouts can send new STA platoon members to a school that will teach them to shoot precision weapons and conceal themselves in urban, woodland, and desert environments (ya know, so they can observe and report enemy movements to higher without being compromised). They can also be trained to call in supporting arms.
Then we keep this platoon fully staffed by incentivizing grunts to try out and funded with a black silkies car washes and hot dog jamboree fundraisers once a month.
Problem solved. Joy sparked.
We get them to take the line company HOGs and re-label them as “
️couts” (they just have to put tape over one of the bolts on all of their stuff)……then put them into a new platoon…which we’ll call a STA (Sneaky Tactical and Awesome) platoon. Then these Scouts can send new STA platoon members to a school that will teach them to shoot precision weapons and conceal themselves in urban, woodland, and desert environments (ya know, so they can observe and report enemy movements to higher without being compromised). They can also be trained to call in supporting arms.
Then we keep this platoon fully staffed by incentivizing grunts to try out and funded with a black silkies car washes and hot dog jamboree fundraisers once a month.
Problem solved. Joy sparked.
Jack Coughlin was also one of the NCO's who showed how the SS Concept can be updated for the modern, fast-moving battlefield, IIRC. He took the Scout Snipers from the 'Vietnam Era" crawling one-shot-one-kill doctrine to a fast-moving, fluid force that was focused on area denial, decapitating the enemy's command and causing communications mayhem on the urban and 'open' battlefield.
The Scout Sniper is not a simple 'Carlos Hathcock' wait all day for opportunity fighter. It is a massive force-multiplier that turns any member of the opposition into a target... and makes them wonder when they will take a bullet if they so much as pop their heads out of a window.
But Redmanss has hit the nail on the head in many ways.
Sirhr
PS. Lots of folks say "We prepare for the last war." Well, that was true right up until 1992. Then I'd argue that we have been prepared as heck for anything... from the Fulda Gap to Iraq to having a few dozen guys on horses take down Afghanistan when the Soviet's couldn't do it in a decade. What we fail at miserably is how to handle the peace. Because we seem to think that some of the world's best-trained shock troops (armor, infantry, artillery, air, etc). is prepared to turn a nation into some kind of Jeffersonion democracy to placate voters from Iowa. We have been utterly prepared for the last several wars. We have not been prepared for nationbuilding, peacekeeping, low intensity conflict, etc... following those wars. Colin Powell did have one thing right when he said "Iraq was like Pottery Barn. You break it, you bought it." A bunch of political hacks though that they could have the 82nd turn Iraq into Poughkeepsie. Yeah... we aren't prepared for that. And in the wake of that nationbuilding mess... we aren't prepared for anything. Thermonuclear? Well... let's hope not. Then again, the CCP is sitting on more than a billion people. They can ride things out much better than we can. They're only 20 years removed from shitting in holes and heating tainted rice. 5 nukes in our atmosphere and on a few financial/tech centers would render the USA a mess for decades... But it would be TV worth watching. For a moment.
Ok ok ok hear me out…I had a talk with Marie Kondo and I think this will spark joy.
We get them to take the line company HOGs and re-label them as “
…then put them into a new platoon…which we’ll call a STA (Sneaky Tactical and Awesome) platoon. Then these Scouts can send new STA platoon members to a school that will teach them to shoot precision weapons and conceal themselves in urban, woodland, and desert environments (ya know, so they can observe and report enemy movements to higher without being compromised). They can also be trained to call in supporting arms.
Then we keep this platoon fully staffed by incentivizing grunts to try out and funded with a black silkies car washes and hot dog jamboree fundraisers once a month.
Problem solved. Joy sparked.
Drag queen shows and selling Lingere like tupperware? Heck, the O-6's would be lining up for that stuff.
Sirhr
Is there something implied in having this funded with hot dog eating contests.Ok ok ok hear me out…I had a talk with Marie Kondo and I think this will spark joy.
We get them to take the line company HOGs and re-label them as “
…then put them into a new platoon…which we’ll call a STA (Sneaky Tactical and Awesome) platoon. Then these Scouts can send new STA platoon members to a school that will teach them to shoot precision weapons and conceal themselves in urban, woodland, and desert environments (ya know, so they can observe and report enemy movements to higher without being compromised). They can also be trained to call in supporting arms.
Then we keep this platoon fully staffed by incentivizing grunts to try out and funded with a black silkies car washes and hot dog jamboree fundraisers once a month.
Problem solved. Joy sparked.
The crime is our political class.
Afghanistans strategic mission should have been nothing more than a limited manhunt followed by a speedy exodus when the scalps were collected.
These wars of wandering goals are Unconstitutional.
People should demand a declaration and a clearly stated objective.
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Just sent a e mail off to the ACMC. Not that it will do any good I knew him when he was a Bltn Commander. This is travesty taking your best combat shooters and field craft specialists, as well as your force multipliers calling in fire support and just pretending they have not proven their worth in every conflict we have had since Korea. The Hamburgler needs to be relieved of command!
This is the same thing we did after WWII and spent Vietnam era rebuilding. I think this will be very detrimental nn the long run and a lot of operational knowledge lost. Total cluster fuck. 
[sarcasm] Isn't every Marine a rifleman/person/thingy? If that's the case, units shouldn't need snipers right?! [/sarcasm]
I don't think this is a good move either, but they didn't ask me, nor was I a Marine, mskes my opinion irrelevant
M
I don't think this is a good move either, but they didn't ask me, nor was I a Marine, mskes my opinion irrelevant
M
Last I checked... the government is Of the People. By the People. And For the People.
So when the government that is supposed to be working for us... does dumbass things... our opinion is supposed to count. It's not like we have potentates or kings, you know.
Meh.... I'm just living in the past. Dominion Voting Machines anyone?
Sirhr
You keep giving lines that deserve a rimshot. Well, now, you can serve yourself one.
Also, I have the DVD of "2,000 Mules."
I was shooting with a group of Sniper Instructors from Quantico last weekend. They were NOT happy about the news. This move is beyond retarded, there is probally not a more cost effective school and program in DOD to create force multipliers than the sniper schoolhouses. The brass at the top are all faggots for allowing this to happen.
You could sink a battleship with all off the "Former Navy SEAL" books out there.
Technically, you live in one. Less than 50 miles from the coast… welcome to the littorals….
Sirhr
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