Non Lead Ammo push, could it threaten shooting sports as we know it?

[xsn10s]

Full Disclosure: Over the past week I approached Frank with bringing up this topic. And we are in agreement that this is an important topic which could affect hunters, competition shooters and anyone concerned with 2A rights. I provided Frank with a link to a thread on this highly volatile topic and he gave me the green light to post this thread. We agreed on the basic premise that this tactic is a threat to our lifestyle.
There are groups within the hunting world pushing for non lead ammo. They claim they do not want a non lead ammo ban, and this post is not to argue over that claim. This post is to explore how this non lead ammo push could lead to a lead ammo ban. The specifics of this one group is that lead ammo is poisoning the eagle population and leading to deaths of eagles, raptors, and other animals. And lead is being found in animals, I can agree that this does happen. But the degree of danger to the population is in question. Some call this "junk science" as described to me by one mechanical engineer to use emotion rather than science to stop lead ammo use. One simple argument is that the eagle population has quadrupled since 2009 as noted in this NPR article ( https://www.npr.org/2021/03/25/981272794/ once-imperiled-americas-bald-eagle-populations-are-soaring ). If this is true then it seems lead ammo isn't a threat that requires banning as President Biden wanted in 2022 ( https://sportsmensalliance.org/news/biden-administration-moves-to-ban-lead-ammunition/ ). Frank brought up a recent push to ban lead ammo on private lands in Colorado. Sorry Frank I couldn't find it.
Though this push is mostly directed towards hunters I see it as a threat to all shooters. If forced to shoot lead free ammo only I could see ammo price double. COVID already has elevated our prices and as handloader I'm at the brink of affording shooting even with cutting back on my rounds downrange. I can't even imagine paying full ammo prices that we see today. If they ever get a lead ammo ban for hunters it's a easy push just to ban lead ammo period IMO. And if that happens then IMO our 2A rights will vanish in a generation, maybe sooner.
No need to attack me as I've stated my OPINION and I'm sure it will stand. I've watched groups like this push for lead bans in fishing and hunting going back for probably thirty years. And I've watched them go after 2A Rights for over forty years. I recognize their tactics, and I abhor them. It's the same tactic used to go after sugar drinks, nicotine, or even petroleum fuel. If you can't ban it make it too cost prohibitive. Feel free to kindly talk amongst yourselves. If you find good articles on the subject post them for scrutiny. If Frank disagrees with my post he is free to delete it with no hard feelings. xsn10s out.

Edit: I should add I found many articles in the past few years of how Colorado is pushing for either lead ammo bans and even a new approach. SUBSIDIZING lead free ammo. Another new tactic.

 

[Flyingbullseye]

Can't argue, get rid of all lead core rounds. Replace it with a more environmentally friendly steal or tungsten core alternative.

 

[reelserious]

going to be hard to make a cheap .22 LR round with no lead.

 

[Milf Dots]

Beijing Biden answers to the CCP after all those millions they paid him and the Biden crime family, so it should come as no surprise that China controls about half of the world's tungsten supply and almost 85 percent of the world's tungsten production.

FJB LGB

 

[Hobo Hilton]

Went down this road many years ago with the water fowl hunters and lead shot. We went to steel shot. I had to go from shooting #6 lead shot to shooting # 4 steel shot. Tungsten was expensive. I witnessed, on game reserves, more crippled wildlife after the lead shot ban went into effect.
JMHO

 

[Maggot]

Can't argue, get rid of all lead core rounds. Replace it with a more environmentally friendly steal or tungsten core alternative.

At what price? What are other alternatives to lead or tungsten that might be affordable. Different materials could be used for hunting or target ammo.. Target ammo doesnt need to expand. like hunting ammo so could be made of a different material even a ceramic, IDK not a scientist.

Good write up though.

Time for Hornady labs to get busy.

 

[xsn10s]

I should add I found many articles in the past few years of how Colorado is pushing for either lead ammo bans and even a new approach. SUBSIDIZING lead free ammo. Another new tactic.

 

[diverdon]

Can't argue, get rid of all lead core rounds. Replace it with a more environmentally friendly steal or tungsten core alternative.

Likely the lead ban was what they envisioned years ago when they banned tungsten rounds to protect police even though no officer had ever been killed by being shot thru a bullet proof vest with a tungsten round.

Don't be a poor. Gold will work better than either.

 

[fpgt72]

My personal thoughts on this. Flat stupid. Now with shotguns it is a bit different. Not every pellet is going into the game, so yes they are going to fall back to earth. In wetlands this means that if anything eats it that lead will get into the "food supply". Frogs eaten, fish eaten by birds, and our bald eagle, so yes I understand in hunting shotguns where non lead shot is a good thing. Anyone that has been hunting knows you find hulls laying around, yes you are not going to get them all, and some do try to clean up, but I think a great deal could be said about paper and the biodegradable hulls, but to "force" it no. And in the use of "games" hell no.

Hunting with a rifle, or hand gun for that matter is very different. Yes people flat miss but if you think 170 grains of lead is an huge issue, sorry no it is not. And if you hit, the likely hood of a through and through on normal US game animals is not real common The bullet usually expands and stays in the animal, this is just what we as hunters want. So for hunters it is flat stupid to push for non lead.

Rifle and hand gun games are different yet again. First off "indoor" is something that does exist, even shooting clays indoor exists, and none of that shot will ever leave the building outside of people buying it for reloading. Indoor hand gun games are fairly common same with rimfire games. Outside however.

Generally speaking again there are specific places set aside for just this. And yes it is flat amazing how many animals show up on a live range and having to shut down the range to get turkey, deer, whatever off the range. It is like they know that gun fire is not pointed at them. Yes I do think this lead can get into the ground water, and thus also the plants. But personally I think it is not big enough to worry about, and it never will be.

For a long time my "shooting area" was at the back of a pasture. Had to stop from time to time because of stupid cows, but it was part of it. Never did have a cow, that ate the grass around the back stop act odd. Also never bothered to test the meat, so I could be all wrong but I don't think that I am.

No mistake lead is some nasty stuff, and we have known that it is for centuries, long before lead in gas became a hot issue.

I see it as nothing else but another way to push this hobby out of the hands of more people. "They" are trying everything they can think of to push that agenda forward. This might color what I think so far has been a neutral post, but look at the folks pushing this and then see where they stand on other issues. See if you agree on those issues as well.

I have tried some just for giggles, I think even 22LR rounds, they had all kinds of funny colors but I don't remember who made them and I want to say they are non lead. If my old man memory is correct then they shot just horrid. Also quite light.

Just my two bits that is not worth two quarters on the subject.

 

[chevy_man]

Wind farms kill tens of thousands of eagles and hawks every year.

Ban wind turbines, it's for the eagles!

 

[Maggot]

Likely the lead ban was what they envisioned years ago when they banned tungsten rounds to protect police even though no officer had ever been killed by being shot thru a bullet proof vest with a tungsten round.

Don't be a poor. Gold will work better than either.

The there's always silver.

Non Lead Ammo push, could it threaten shooting sports as we know it?

Full Disclosure: Over the past week I approached Frank with bringing up this topic. And we are in agreement that this is an important topic which could affect hunters, competition shooters and anyone concerned with 2A rights. I provided Frank with a link to a thread on this highly volatile topic...

www.snipershide.com

 

[fpgt72]

Now to put on my tinfoil had for a sec.

In shotguns we know what non lead has done. Ever price a bag of heavyshot, good night I thought lead was expensive. But you must spend it if you want to hunt wetlands, that also takes your "classic" shotguns out of the picture.

Finding something that would fly "almost like lead", hit "almost as hard as lead" did not happen over night, took some time. The same thing will happen with bullets. Performance on game animals can be estimated, but until you take it out in the woods and actually use it you just don't know. And I think that will be another thing that will come after if this "no lead" thing gets pushed through. Well look at all the "unethical" kills, that poor animal suffered, hunting needs to go away all together.....and if you don't need that well you can keep your 2A but your guns need to be stored at the "club" not in your home.

Yea tinfoil I know, and you folks are partly to blame for bringing these thoughts to the surface. But I doubt you can say he is crazy.

 

[Maggot]

My personal thoughts on this. Flat stupid. Now with shotguns it is a bit different. Not every pellet is going into the game, so yes they are going to fall back to earth. In wetlands this means that if anything eats it that lead will get into the "food supply". Frogs eaten, fish eaten by birds, and our bald eagle, so yes I understand in hunting shotguns where non lead shot is a good thing. Anyone that has been hunting knows you find hulls laying around, yes you are not going to get them all, and some do try to clean up, but I think a great deal could be said about paper and the biodegradable hulls, but to "force" it no. And in the use of "games" hell no.

Hunting with a rifle, or hand gun for that matter is very different. Yes people flat miss but if you think 170 grains of lead is an huge issue, sorry no it is not. And if you hit, the likely hood of a through and through on normal US game animals is not real common The bullet usually expands and stays in the animal, this is just what we as hunters want. So for hunters it is flat stupid to push for non lead.

Rifle and hand gun games are different yet again. First off "indoor" is something that does exist, even shooting clays indoor exists, and none of that shot will ever leave the building outside of people buying it for reloading. Indoor hand gun games are fairly common same with rimfire games. Outside however.

Generally speaking again there are specific places set aside for just this. And yes it is flat amazing how many animals show up on a live range and having to shut down the range to get turkey, deer, whatever off the range. It is like they know that gun fire is not pointed at them. Yes I do think this lead can get into the ground water, and thus also the plants. But personally I think it is not big enough to worry about, and it never will be.

For a long time my "shooting area" was at the back of a pasture. Had to stop from time to time because of stupid cows, but it was part of it. Never did have a cow, that ate the grass around the back stop act odd. Also never bothered to test the meat, so I could be all wrong but I don't think that I am.

No mistake lead is some nasty stuff, and we have known that it is for centuries, long before lead in gas became a hot issue.

I see it as nothing else but another way to push this hobby out of the hands of more people. "They" are trying everything they can think of to push that agenda forward. This might color what I think so far has been a neutral post, but look at the folks pushing this and then see where they stand on other issues. See if you agree on those issues as well.

I have tried some just for giggles, I think even 22LR rounds, they had all kinds of funny colors but I don't remember who made them and I want to say they are non lead. If my old man memory is correct then they shot just horrid. Also quite light.

Just my two bits that is not worth two quarters on the subject.

I sent youre OP to Hornady for comments, we'll see.

I think your generally correct, though Ill bet that if the cows ate that grass on a regular basis, and you check the milk and meat, you'd find elevated levels of lead present. To the level that it would be a problem? IDK, over a long time, if consumed a lot, perhaps.

But macro thinking, likely not, I think it wise to monitor closely the impact on wild life. The raptors are a vital part of the environmental chain and if necessary, need protected.

 

[jb0311]

Full disclosure, I've worked as a wildlife biologist for over a decade and I'm an avid shooter and hunter of waterfowl and deer, as well as a fisherman. So i see both sides. And you mention that the studies against lead is emotionally driven, but you would be remise to ignore that studies in support of lead ammunition are as well. It's hard to argue that lead shot for waterfowl hasn't had lasting effects on both scavengers, and on fish. Working in the prairie pothole region, aka the waterfowl factory of North America, most of the waters up there are full of heavy metals, both from lead and from farming practices. Where I worked, it was advisable not to eat more than 1 walleye a month, and 0 if you were pregnant or nursing. So the effects are real, not matter how inconvenient or costly. Now lead bullets are less hazardous, both because you aren't generally hunting large game over water. Still, large amounts in the soil still has effects. Not knowing the extent of the effect isn't the same as there not being one. You'd really only see this around areas like shooting ranges where you're putting lots of rounds into the soil in a concentrated area.

No matter what you believe, it should be something we monitor and have an unbiased approach.


Edit to add:
If you read the history of hunting in this Country, during and post-colonization, it's riddled with examples on why there needs to be oversight and regulations on hunting. In a short time, we have already wiped out one large game species, and native game bird populations are critically declining as well. A little history lesson for those who have heard of the Christmas Bird Count. While today it is a national birding event where people go out and report what birds they see, it used to be where people went out and killed as many birds as they could. It's the reason we no longer have the carolina parakeet and the passenger pigeon.

 

[jb0311]

Wind farms kill tens of thousands of eagles and hawks every year.

Ban wind turbines, it's for the eagles!

It's worth noting, that the USFWS is against wind farms, but just for a different reason. And when I say they are against them, I only mean at the field and regional level. Wind farms are big business, just like anything else.

 

[Bigfatcock]

This is old news, to be honest. Look at how this has been a thing in California.

Fudds gonna fudd.

 

[Maggot]

Full disclosure, I've worked as a wildlife biologist for over a decade and I'm an avid shooter and hunter of waterfowl and deer, as well as a fisherman. So i see both sides. And you mention that the studies against lead is emotionally driven, but you would be remise to ignore that studies in support of lead ammunition are as well. It's hard to argue that lead shot for waterfowl hasn't had lasting effects on both scavengers, and on fish. Working in the prairie pothole region, aka the waterfowl factory of North America, most of the waters up there are full of heavy metals, both from lead and from farming practices. Where I worked, it was advisable not to eat more than 1 walleye a month, and 0 if you were pregnant or nursing. So the effects are real, not matter how inconvenient or costly. Now lead bullets are less hazardous, both because you aren't generally hunting large game over water. Still, large amounts in the soil still has effects. Not knowing the extent of the effect isn't the same as there not being one. You'd really only see this around areas like shooting ranges where you're putting lots of rounds into the soil in a concentrated area.

No matter what you believe, it should be something we monitor and have an unbiased approach.


Edit to add:
If you read the history of hunting in this Country, during and post-colonization, it's riddled with examples on why there needs to be oversight and regulations on hunting. In a short time, we have already wiped out one large game species, and native game bird populations are critically declining as well. A little history lesson for those who have heard of the Christmas Bird Count. While today it is a national birding event where people go out and report what birds they see, it used to be where people went out and killed as many birds as they could. It's the reason we no longer have the carolina parakeet and the passenger pigeon.

Good post.

Dont know your AO but perhaps with a little research can make a suggestion..


I live in Lawton, Ok, sw part of the state, adjacent to the Wichita Wildlife Refuge, a beautiful place if you've not been, Lots of little lakes with fishing allowed, There are signs that warn of eating too many fish because of the arsenic levels in the water.

Shortly after seeing this, I read an article about a weed dispensary in the next town over having its (city provided) water tested. Turns out the city water has elevated levels of arsenic that hadnt been tested for, now they have to filter the city water supply for that.

I've asked around and no one seems to know the source of this. Thoughts.

 

[jb0311]

Good post.

Dont know your AO but perhaps with a little research can make a suggestion..


I live in Lawton, Ok, sw part of the state, adjacent to the Wichita Wildlife Refuge, a beautiful place if you've not been, Lots of little lakes with fishing allowed, There are signs that warn of eating too many fish because of the arsenic levels in the water.

Shortly after seeing this, I read an article about a weed dispensary in the next town over having its (city provided) water tested. Turns out the city water has elevated levels of arsenic that hadnt been tested for, now they have to filter the city water supply for that.

I've asked around and no one seems to know the source of this. Thoughts.

Wichita mountains NWR? I can ask my wife as she goes there once every couple of years for work, and knows people that work at that refuge. We lived and worked up in Western MN but are now back in coastal nc. Arsenic sources are usually one or two things: found naturally in mineral deposits that leach/erode into the water over time, and/or from agriculture discharge. If there are factories in the area it could be that too if they are discharging into the water supply. I would venture it being ag run off, given the area and the high levels.

 

[Sean the Nailer]

Likely the lead ban was what they envisioned years ago when they banned tungsten rounds to protect police even though no officer had ever been killed by being shot thru a bullet proof vest with a tungsten round.

Don't be a poor. Gold will work better than either.

Gold would work, but that'd be expensiver.
Silver would work, only be expensive, but there IS werewolf protection.

BUT,

Cover more ground, do more good for the environment, use less, and be more productive:

Depleted Uranium. THAT'S the answer!

They're always wailing about 'radioactive waste sites' filling up, so use the metal. Stops the sites from filling up. Smaller amounts are needed to keep the same weight in a bullet whilst making up the mass difference with gilding metal. Just think of the ballistics and the possibilities!

Win, Win, Win-win-win!

 

[Maggot]

Wichita mountains NWR? I can ask my wife as she goes there once every couple of years for work, and knows people that work at that refuge. We lived and worked up in Western MN but are now back in coastal nc. Arsenic sources are usually one or two things: found naturally in mineral deposits that leach/erode into the water over time, and/or from agriculture discharge. If there are factories in the area it could be that too if they are discharging into the water supply. I would venture it being ag run off, given the area and the high levels.

I'd appreciate any info. I drink tested bottled spring water, and give it to my wolfdog as I notice she became lethargic after tap water. I fogot the refuge is due west of Ft. sill the nation's largest artillery training base so a lot of ordinance gets released out that way. doesnt explain why its in the Duncan (30 miles east) water supply.

 

[xsn10s]

If the Prairie Pothole region is South Dakota those warnings are mostly due to mercury. In Oregon it's mercury and PCB's, Which is an issue for many Western state. It's also a warning for many saltwater fish. So you either forgo those fish or take your chances. I haven't seen any lead advisories for eating fish. We have an arsenic water warning for my area. It generally comes from leaching into the ground water from trace elements in rocks.

 

[Maggot]

Depleted Uranium. THAT'S the answer!

I think youve got something there. Even a close miss would be a kill from radiation, you'd just have to wait it out,

 

[babyguppy]

back in the 90's; Hillary C wanted the EPA to ban all lead in a house; this was her attempt to get rid of all ammo.
Web has been wiped clean on this issue; for a reason.
ban all lead for hunting, then ban all lead on public lands and boom... where can you shoot your guns?

 

[Maggot]

If the Prairie Pothole region is South Dakota those warnings are mostly due to mercury. In Oregon it's mercury and PCB's, Which is an issue for many Western state. It's also a warning for many saltwater fish. So you either forgo those fish or take your chances. I haven't seen any lead advisories for eating fish. We have an arsenic water warning for my area. It generally comes from leaching into the ground water from trace elements in rocks.

I see you're not on the coast but I've heard that the salmon harvest are beingclosed in Or, Wash, and Cali, because of low counts. Is that due to over fishing or Perhaps, as I've been gives some unvetted evidence, due to radioactive watef following the pacific currents and affecting egg production in the ovaries. According to the .gov arrticle I found, no, if you trust the gov. simply because itns not found in the food supply doesnt nec. mean it mght not affect egg production even in minute doses.

Or it could just be overfishing. Any way you look at it the price has gone skyhigh.

www.nrc.gov › docs › ML1502FUKUSHIMA WATER CONTAMINATION- IMPACTS ON THE U.S. WEST COAST​

FUKUSHIMA WATER CONTAMINATION- IMPACTS ON THE U.S. WEST COAST Jessica Kratchman and Chuck Norton Updated January 2015 – Robert Bernardo U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission The NRC continues to see public interest in low concentrations of radioactive material detected off the U.S. West Coast.

• File Size: 1MB
• Page Count: 7

 

[xsn10s]

I see you're not on the coast but I've heard that the salmon harvest are beingclosed in Or, Wash, and Cali, because of low counts. Is that due to over fishing or Perhaps, as I've been gives some unvetted evidence, due to radioactive watef following the pacific currents and affecting egg production in the ovaries. According to the .gov arrticle I found, no, if you trust the gov. simply because itns not found in the food supply doesnt nec. mean it mght not affect egg production even in minute doses.

Or it could just be overfishing. Any way you look at it the price has gone skyhigh.

www.nrc.gov › docs › ML1502FUKUSHIMA WATER CONTAMINATION- IMPACTS ON THE U.S. WEST COAST​

FUKUSHIMA WATER CONTAMINATION- IMPACTS ON THE U.S. WEST COAST Jessica Kratchman and Chuck Norton Updated January 2015 – Robert Bernardo U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission The NRC continues to see public interest in low concentrations of radioactive material detected off the U.S. West Coast.

• File Size: 1MB
• Page Count: 7

I don't live on the coast anymore. But I do live in Oregon. I haven't concentrated on salmon low counts but the push here is to knock down the dams. That would come with concerns on power and agriculture if the dams come down.

 

[jb0311]

If the Prairie Pothole region is South Dakota those warnings are mostly due to mercury. In Oregon it's mercury and PCB's, Which is an issue for many Western state. It's also a warning for many saltwater fish. So you either forgo those fish or take your chances. I haven't seen any lead advisories for eating fish. We have an arsenic water warning for my area. It generally comes from leaching into the ground water from trace elements in rocks.

Prairie pothole is MUCH larger than just one state, and most of its natural range has been decimated by farming thanks to ethanol. Less than 1% of it remains in its natural state.

 

[xsn10s]

Prairie pothole is MUCH larger than just one state, and most of its natural range has been decimated by farming thanks to ethanol. Less than 1% of it remains in its natural state.

You provide links to the specific area and what is causing the health advisories. Or I should say what are the health advisories.

 

[jb0311]

You provide links to the specific area and what is causing the health advisories. Or I should say what are the health advisories.

what specific area are you wanting exactly? I don't live there anymore but if you have a specific body of water or watershed you are interested in i can look it up for you. Not really sure what you're wanting me to look up for you.

 

[jbailey]

I think youve got something there. Even a close miss would be a kill from radiation, you'd just have to wait it out,

DU is very very mildly radioactive. Radiation from it does not present any significant health concerns, let alone killing from its radiation. Even after hitting something, it is not a significantly radioactive material. DU is nearly all U238, which will alpha decay with a half life of 4.5e9 years!!!! Not even the crazy dems can say something with a 4.5 BILLION year half-life is a concern. It does have a mildly poisonous effect if you do inhale DU splinters/dust.

I do support DU as a core however! Let's make it cheaply and readily available. Watch those BCs explode on the higher densities!!!!

And the target manufacturers like JC Steel Targets will love it - DU core bullets will make swiss cheese out of AR500.

 

[xsn10s]

Full disclosure, I've worked as a wildlife biologist for over a decade and I'm an avid shooter and hunter of waterfowl and deer, as well as a fisherman. So i see both sides. And you mention that the studies against lead is emotionally driven, but you would be remise to ignore that studies in support of lead ammunition are as well. It's hard to argue that lead shot for waterfowl hasn't had lasting effects on both scavengers, and on fish. Working in the prairie pothole region, aka the waterfowl factory of North America, most of the waters up there are full of heavy metals, both from lead and from farming practices. Where I worked, it was advisable not to eat more than 1 walleye a month, and 0 if you were pregnant or nursing. So the effects are real, not matter how inconvenient or costly. Now lead bullets are less hazardous, both because you aren't generally hunting large game over water. Still, large amounts in the soil still has effects. Not knowing the extent of the effect isn't the same as there not being one. You'd really only see this around areas like shooting ranges where you're putting lots of rounds into the soil in a concentrated area.

No matter what you believe, it should be something we monitor and have an unbiased approach.


Edit to add:
If you read the history of hunting in this Country, during and post-colonization, it's riddled with examples on why there needs to be oversight and regulations on hunting. In a short time, we have already wiped out one large game species, and native game bird populations are critically declining as well. A little history lesson for those who have heard of the Christmas Bird Count. While today it is a national birding event where people go out and report what birds they see, it used to be where people went out and killed as many birds as they could. It's the reason we no longer have the carolina parakeet and the passenger pigeon.

This is your post on how you worked in the pothole region so this is the area of concern. You also brought up the warnings for pregnant women eating fish in this region. This post is on lead ammo. So where is a link for lead warnings for pregnant women eating fish in this region?

 

[232593]

Of course the subhuman degenerate filth on the other side is going to use a lead ban to effect ammunition availability. And we need to contest them at all times through all means.

But until we start to hate and dehumanize them on a large scale we’ll only have limited success at best.

 

[jb0311]

This is your post on how you worked in the pothole region so this is the area of concern. You also brought up the warnings for pregnant women eating fish in this region. This post is on lead ammo. So where is a link for lead warnings for pregnant women eating fish in this region?

Ahh i understand now, my apologies, I was confused as I was talking with Maggot about arsenic. Should be no issue with prepared fish and lead, to my knowledge. Most of the waterfowl deaths from lead are from ingesting pellets and tackle. I can see how that is confusing as I transferred from talking about lead and waterfowl death, to heavy metals and pregnancy issues. Lead is detrimental for waterfowl and species like the loon. Mercury is the predominant danger for humans and eating fish. I've quoted myself below if that helps, highlighting what I was referring to with the lead, then grouping heavy metals in general. Lead danger for humans is mostly from old pipes. I personally don't want to eat waterfowl that have lead in their system either. To each their own though. MN's arsenic issue is mostly from leaching into wells from the geology (also contributing to higher than average radon numbers) and the rest is compounded by runoff.

If that doesn't clear anything up let me know.

"It's hard to argue that lead shot for waterfowl hasn't had lasting effects on both scavengers, and on fish. Working in the prairie pothole region, aka the waterfowl factory of North America, most of the waters up there are full of heavy metals, both from lead and from farming practices. Where I worked, it was advisable not to eat more than 1 walleye a month, and 0 if you were pregnant or nursing."

 

[lonegunman762x51]

The one thing we know for a 100% certainty is that ZERO fucking science is involved in anything leftists fucktards offer as a viable to lead cored ammunition. Fuck communism and anyone who supports it.

 

[xsn10s]

Ahh i understand now, my apologies, I was confused as I was talking with Maggot about arsenic. Should be no issue with prepared fish and lead, to my knowledge. Most of the waterfowl deaths from lead are from ingesting pellets and tackle. I can see how that is confusing as I transferred from talking about lead and waterfowl death, to heavy metals and pregnancy issues. Lead is detrimental for waterfowl and species like the loon. Mercury is the predominant danger for humans and eating fish. I've quoted myself below if that helps, highlighting what I was referring to with the lead, then grouping heavy metals in general. Lead danger for humans is mostly from old pipes. I personally don't want to eat waterfowl that have lead in their system either. To each their own though. MN's arsenic issue is mostly from leaching into wells from the geology (also contributing to higher than average radon numbers) and the rest is compounded by runoff.

If that doesn't clear anything up let me know.

"It's hard to argue that lead shot for waterfowl hasn't had lasting effects on both scavengers, and on fish. Working in the prairie pothole region, aka the waterfowl factory of North America, most of the waters up there are full of heavy metals, both from lead and from farming practices. Where I worked, it was advisable not to eat more than 1 walleye a month, and 0 if you were pregnant or nursing."

That clears it up. But I must clarify those health advisories are for mercury correct? If it is due to lead please provide a link to that lead health advisory.

 

[jb0311]

That clears it up. But I must clarify those health advisories are for mercury correct? If it is due to lead please provide a link to that lead health advisory.

Nope not lead, I was just talking about contaminates in water in general. And correct, mercury is the fish advisories. I brought up working as a biologist in reference to the lead because of it's effect on the wildlife species mentioned. IIRC, about 1/3 of loon deaths are attributed to lead consumption. I can look into a study on that to share with you, if you are interested. I get not everyone cares unless it directly affects them (not saying that's you) but I found it pertinent to mention that there are detrimental effects, regardless. I value game and non-game species as they tend to be affected equally.

 

[Lowlight]

This is part of the anti gun push, the idea that any shooting on public lands will contaminate the soil is crazy.

We have to be vigilant as they are trying all sorts of new tactics to restrict gun rights.

Hold the Line !

 

[fpgt72]

I sent youre OP to Hornady for comments, we'll see.

I think your generally correct, though Ill bet that if the cows ate that grass on a regular basis, and you check the milk and meat, you'd find elevated levels of lead present. To the level that it would be a problem? IDK, over a long time, if consumed a lot, perhaps.

But macro thinking, likely not, I think it wise to monitor closely the impact on wild life. The raptors are a vital part of the environmental chain and if necessary, need protected.

I think other things helped in the bird issue as well. Seem to remember something about DDT or something screwing them up.

 

[jb0311]

I mean there are studies on shooting ranges that test for lead, so despite leftests using it doesn't make it untrue. Now for events like PRS or hunting, no, it's nowhere near concentrated enough in one area to make a significant difference.

 

[jb0311]

I think other things helped in the bird issue as well. Seem to remember something about DDT or something screwing them up.

DDT affected the egg shell density and therefor affected reproduction success. Lead poisoning affects wildlife at any developmental stage.

 

[anon]

Or it could just be overfishing. Any way you look at it the price has gone skyhigh.

I occasionally do Pacific Ocean crossings, usually up north. Seeing the fishing fleets at night that are 100 miles across can be spectacular.

The last one I noted the location was at 41N176W. Don't know whose it was, but I leave that guess to you. That one was about 70 miles by 30 miles across. A few degrees farther east was another smaller one, maybe 40 by 20.

I've always wondered about their spacing and maneuvering, sometimes the boats look pretty closely spaced.

 

[Maggot]

I think other things helped in the bird issue as well. Seem to remember something about DDT or something screwing them up.

Yeah, I was just thinking that. Maybe weakening the shells of the Condor so the young birds dint mature?

DDT is bad shit so we exported it to Mexico to use on the food they send us? The town I lived in in Tesas formerly had 2 DDT plants ad it contaminated the water supply. They cleaned it up but if you know yoou can see the effects on residents.

 

[Maggot]

I occasionally do Pacific Ocean crossings, usually up north. Seeing the fishing fleets at night that are 100 miles across can be spectacular.

The last one I noted the location was at 41N176W. Don't know whose it was, but I leave that guess to you. That one was about 70 miles by 30 miles across. A few degrees farther east was another smaller one, maybe 40 by 20.

I've always wondered about their spacing and maneuvering, sometimes the boats look pretty closely spaced.

'They' are doing the same thin off the Argentinian coast. Did I say fuck the chicoms?

1. www.businessinsider.com › chinese-fishing-vesselsChinese Fishing Vessels Are Going 'Dark' Off Argentina's Waters​

   
   Jun 2, 2021 · Argentina's coast guard has chased, fired on, and sunk Chinese vessels it said were fishing illegally in Argentine waters. The appearance of some 300 Chinese-flagged fishing boats near...
   • Author: Christopher Woody

2. www.globenewswire.com › news-release › 2021/06/02Oceana Finds Hundreds of ‘Hidden’ Chinese Vessels Pillaging​

   
   Jun 2, 2021 · Chinese vessels comprised the most fishing along Argentina’s national waters with over 400 vessels conducting 69% of the total visible fishing activity. Korean, Spanish, and

 

[Kalthoff]

In Denmark where I live, the situation is as follows:

• lead shotgun shells have been totally prohibited since 1996
• lead rifle ammunition will be prohibited for hunting from April 2024
• lead rifle ammunition is legal on shooting ranges - for now
• lead pistol ammunition is legal on shooting ranges - for now

Banning lead ammunition for shooting ranges is being eagerly pursued by several organizations.

It was only thanks to skilled and clever lobbying, supported by a fairly widespread support for hunting and sports shooting in the population, that lead continues to be legal at the shootingrange - for now. The lack of a good alternative for .22LR was given as one important reason for not banning lead ammunition at the range.

 

[acudaowner]

no .

 

[xsn10s]

In Denmark where I live, the situation is as follows:

• lead shotgun shells have been totally prohibited since 1996
• lead rifle ammunition will be prohibited for hunting from April 2024
• lead rifle ammunition is legal on shooting ranges - for now
• lead pistol ammunition is legal on shooting ranges - for now

Banning lead ammunition for shooting ranges is being eagerly pursued by several organizations.

It was only thanks to skilled and clever lobbying, supported by a fairly widespread support for hunting and sports shooting in the population, that lead continues to be legal at the shootingrange - for now. The lack of a good alternative for .22LR was given as one important reason for not banning lead ammunition at the range.

That's pretty much how I figured they will try here in the states also. I could see them banning lead ammo at shooting ranges due to lead runoff. It'll be an easy push for them. My thinking is that lead batteries is a bigger concern for lead. So gives them even more argument to ban gasoline cars.

 

[fpgt72]

'They' are doing the same thin off the Argentinian coast. Did I say fuck the chicoms?

1. www.businessinsider.com › chinese-fishing-vesselsChinese Fishing Vessels Are Going 'Dark' Off Argentina's Waters​

   
   Jun 2, 2021 · Argentina's coast guard has chased, fired on, and sunk Chinese vessels it said were fishing illegally in Argentine waters. The appearance of some 300 Chinese-flagged fishingboats near...
   • Author: Christopher Woody

2. www.globenewswire.com › news-release › 2021/06/02Oceana Finds Hundreds of ‘Hidden’ Chinese Vessels Pillaging​

   
   Jun 2, 2021 · Chinese vessels comprised the most fishing along Argentina’s national waters with over 400 vessels conducting 69% of the total visible fishing activity. Korean, Spanish, and

I want to say some south american country fired on a chinese fishing ship. They have destroyed the waters around their country, a country with a bit of ocean frontage.

 

[krw]

If you think of how many bullets, shot PLUS lded ammunition in the US, it woodn’t do much good to try to ban it, just sayn

 

[Maggot]

I want to say some south american country fired on a chinese fishing ship. They have destroyed the waters around their country, a country with a bit of ocean frontage.

They should just sink them all, the Chinese navy couldnt do shit.

 

[xsn10s]

I mean there are studies on shooting ranges that test for lead, so despite leftests using it doesn't make it untrue. Now for events like PRS or hunting, no, it's nowhere near concentrated enough in one area to make a significant difference.

So if hunting or PRS matches don't have high concentrations of lead then there is no reason for a lead ammo ban. But there are still groups calling for the stop of using lead ammo. And since the matches are generally held at shooting ranges those are up for scrutiny of lead ammo bans.

 

[Maggot]

So if hunting or PRS matches don't have high concentrations of lead then there is no reason for a lead ammo ban. But there are still groups calling for the stop of using lead ammo. And since the matches are generally held at shooting ranges those are up for scrutiny of lead ammo bans.

In most places they are grandfathered in, but this is a good time to take Army Jerry's advice.


Buy More Ammo.