Nosler Vs. Laupua Case life 308

[stickboy]

What is the expected case life out of quality brass? Standard Tac load Varget 44.5 grn pushing a 175 SMK.

I have experienced primer pockets stretching in the nosler brass after only a couple turns.

What can I expect out of Nolser or Laupua?

 

[shiftsniper]

Re: Nosler Vs. Laupua Case life 308

I'm using 168g AMax's with45.0g of Tac, Fed 210M Primers and Nosler brass. I only got 5-6 loads and the primer pocket were done. BTW welcome to the family

 

[desertHK]

Re: Nosler Vs. Laupua Case life 308

I use both 155 Lapua Scenars and 175 SMK in my Lapua cases. I am up to my 7th load without any signs of failure. By the way, for the 155 scenar, I use 47.4 gr of varget and the 175 SMK, I use 44.2 gr of IMR4064. They are reasonably hot loads. I don't have any experience with the Nosler brass, but I would recommend Lapua all the way. I have read people on this site have 10+ loads with Lapua cases.

 

[stickboy]

Re: Nosler Vs. Laupua Case life 308

Thanks Casper.

Seems that Nolser is a bit soft for the price.

I think I will go Laupua next time around.

 

[shiftsniper]

Re: Nosler Vs. Laupua Case life 308

Honestly I would go with Winchester. I'm using the same bullet with 61.0g of H4350, Fed 215M Primers on my 300WSM and I am on my 17-18 load and they have only been trimmed once. Primer pockets are still tight. Not that there is anything against Lapua.

 

[stickboy]

Re: Nosler Vs. Laupua Case life 308

Wow! 17-18. That is good durability!!

Thanks for the advice.

 

[Rafael]

Re: Nosler Vs. Laupua Case life 308

I have run one batch of Lapua to 100 reloads, certainly multiple batches over 50 reloads and quit counting.
Used to run them with 43.2 grains Varget and 175SMK, but moved up to 44 grains. Primer pockets get a bit loose but they still hold fine.
Am running the current batch at 44.5 Varget and 178Amax. We shall see, but I se no signs of these being any different.
I expect 50+. Never annealed any of them, ever.

My brass costs me less than my primers, per shot.

 

[ChadTRG42]

Re: Nosler Vs. Laupua Case life 308

I shoot Nosler with a 300 WM, and just annealed some cases last night after 6 reloads. I'll see how they do with this annealing. My primer pockets are still good.

 

[Hunt]

Re: Nosler Vs. Laupua Case life 308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rafael</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have run one batch of Lapua to 100 reloads, certainly multiple batches over 50 reloads and quit counting.
Used to run them with 43.2 grains Varget and 175SMK, but moved up to 44 grains. Primer pockets get a bit loose but they still hold fine.
Am running the current batch at 44.5 Varget and 178Amax. We shall see, but I se no signs of these being any different.
I expect 50+. Never annealed any of them, ever.

My brass costs me less than my primers, per shot. </div></div>

With regards to 50+ loadings, how does neck tension feel when seating? Can you tell any difference b/t reload #20 and reload #2? I know with Winchester brass, I can tell quite a difference when seating #6 reload as opposed to reload #2.

 

[Rafael]

Re: Nosler Vs. Laupua Case life 308

At that point it is a bit inconsistent, still sub-MOA ammo though. I don't use an expander in my bushing die, but I bet the neck tension consistency would improve slightly if one were to use the expander.

I have pondered annealing, but never got around to trying it.
If I had to pick a point where it becomes noticeable, it would be maybe 8-12 firings.
After that, it does not seem to get worse.

 

[stickboy]

Re: Nosler Vs. Laupua Case life 308

What is involved in annealing brass to improve primer pocket fit?

 

[Rafael]

Re: Nosler Vs. Laupua Case life 308

I am not aware of anyone annealing for any reason other than the neck. If they are annealing lower than that, it would surprise me.
As to primer pockets, the only cure I know of is replacing the brass, or running lower pressure loads.

I certainly did not mean to imply that annealing had anything to do with primer pockets.

 

[stickboy]

Re: Nosler Vs. Laupua Case life 308

Roger.

 

[vinconco]

Re: Nosler Vs. Laupua Case life 308

I had a really strange thing happen with a 22-250 I was loading for. I used Norma brass and a lee FL die set to load 55 vmax to 3800 fps using IMR 4064 and CCI BR. After 2 loadings the primer pockets were loose. I changed dies to a lee collet neck sizer and a Redding body die used very lightly to ensure easy chambering. Everything remained the same with the exception of the dies. I have now gotten over 30 loads with these cases with the primer pockets still tight. WTF?? any insights on this would be appreciated.

Much of case life depends on how much the shoulder is set back each time the case is sized.

 

[Rafael]

Re: Nosler Vs. Laupua Case life 308

I would like to know why you experienced that too, vinconco!
Was it by chance a "small-base" body die?

I fully agree with you on the case life being fairly dependent on shoulder bump. Been too far before, good lesson, no fun to learn it though.

I hear of people getting neck splits, but the only neck failures I ever had were with one box of factory 308 PMC loads.

 

[Halfnutz]

Re: Nosler Vs. Laupua Case life 308

"What is involved in annealing brass to improve primer pocket fit?" Quoted from Stickboy.

Bad Idea annealing the base of a cartridge, everything I have read on annealing says to keep the heat away form the base or you risk the casehead failing.

 

[vinconco]

Re: Nosler Vs. Laupua Case life 308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rafael</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would like to know why you experienced that too, vinconco!
Was it by chance a "small-base" body die?

</div></div>

Actually, I only had the problem when I used the lee FL die. It went away when I switched to the Redding body die. I have now subsitiuted a Forster bump die for the body die to reduce working the case as much as possible. I try to neck size only and use the bump or body die when chambering becomes a problem and then only the minimum necessary to allow chambering... no more problems. I use the Stoney Point case gauge to keep my shoulders as close to fired dimensions as possible.

 

[ChadTRG42]

Re: Nosler Vs. Laupua Case life 308

Yes, do not anneal the base. Once the primer pocket is gone, discard the case. You can anneal the body of the case, but be carefull not to go too far down.
I just annealed 150 pieces of Nosler brass, and it worked great. I use the Hornady annealing kit that has the temperature paint that liquifies when you reach the right amount of heat on the case. The case holders are nice since you can dump them right into water without touching the case.

 

[Rafael]

Re: Nosler Vs. Laupua Case life 308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vinconco</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rafael</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would like to know why you experienced that too, vinconco!
Was it by chance a "small-base" body die?

</div></div>

Actually, I only had the problem when I used the lee FL die. It went away when I switched to the Redding body die. I have now subsitiuted a Forster bump die for the body die to reduce working the case as much as possible. I try to neck size only and use the bump or body die when chambering becomes a problem and then only the minimum necessary to allow chambering... no more problems. I use the Stoney Point case gauge to keep my shoulders as close to fired dimensions as possible.
</div></div>

Strange. I wonder if the decapping stem was set too low, possibly causing it to strike the web?

 

[sherlok]

Re: Nosler Vs. Laupua Case life 308

I've only used the old method. Set the cases in a pan of water up to about an inch, heat with a propane torch until a dull red then tip over with a wire. Not fancy, but has worked for shooters for years.

Sherlok

 

[vinconco]

Re: Nosler Vs. Laupua Case life 308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rafael</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vinconco</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rafael</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would like to know why you experienced that too, vinconco!
Was it by chance a "small-base" body die?

</div></div>

Actually, I only had the problem when I used the lee FL die. It went away when I switched to the Redding body die. I have now subsitiuted a Forster bump die for the body die to reduce working the case as much as possible. I try to neck size only and use the bump or body die when chambering becomes a problem and then only the minimum necessary to allow chambering... no more problems. I use the Stoney Point case gauge to keep my shoulders as close to fired dimensions as possible.
</div></div>

Strange. I wonder if the decapping stem was set too low, possibly causing it to strike the web?</div></div>

That's one thing I didn't check. The die is still set up the way it was when I used it last so I'll check it out and see.

 

[ugsly]

Re: Nosler Vs. Laupua Case life 308

To my understanding Nosler brass is just Federal with the Nosler stamp on it.

 

[vinconco]

Re: Nosler Vs. Laupua Case life 308

The Nosler match stuff is really nice. Totally prepped, no dinged case mouths, ready to load match ammo. Be careful where you buy it if your trying to put together a few hundred. Since it's weight sorted and boxed 50 / box you have to get all the same lot numbers to get brass that matches.

 

[ChadTRG42]

Re: Nosler Vs. Laupua Case life 308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ugsly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To my understanding Nosler brass is just Federal with the Nosler stamp on it. </div></div>

No comparison between the two. Totally different products.

 

[MitchAlsup]

Re: Nosler Vs. Laupua Case life 308

I can concurr that my Win cases are in the 17-19 reload range with narry a sign of: Neck crackings, primer pockes being loose, or thinning down near the web.

But I neck only size most of the time, and hold tight tollerances to headspace in the gun in question. (0.0017)

 

[FCS]

Re: Nosler Vs. Laupua Case life 308

Go Lapua and don't look back.

Win brass is too small just above the extractor cut and you get a bulge on the case if you have a spring loaded ejector. Win measures 0.462" or so at 0.200" above case head, Lapua measures 0.468" and chamber cut into barrel should be 0.470".

I've used and gotten decent results with Win brass over the years but I DO NOT like the bulge in the brass. I don't have the bulge issue with Lapua and the Lapua lasts longer.

FCS

 

[RollerCam]

Re: Nosler Vs. Laupua Case life 308

Since this thread was written well before 11-08, no one had the benefit of reading the extensive .308 WIN test in the December <span style="font-style: italic">Handloader Magazine.</span>

In the article, <span style="font-weight: bold">brass longevity</span> was tested and all the well-known brands were tested TO FAILURE.

#1 for number of reloads? <span style="font-weight: bold">Norma.</span> I think they got 23 loads in the Norma til' case head separation.

Nickel plated Rem was second, then regular Remington. Lapua was up near the top but didn't score as well as the rep it usually gets here at "Da Hide."

Excellent article. Read it if you get a chance.

 

[19Scout77]

Re: Nosler Vs. Laupua Case life 308

A little secret for loose primer pockets. Keep some of the Wolf primers around. They are a wee bit over-sized and feel tight when CCIs feel loose. At least that has been my experience with .308.

 

[GBMaryland]

Re: Nosler Vs. Laupua Case life 308

So, does anyone know how Hornady brass stands up in the range of various case products?

Also, has anyone else noticed that 300WM brass appears to be hard to find lately?

 

[stickboy]

Re: Nosler Vs. Laupua Case life 308

Sounds like a great article...I will have to look it up.

Thanks for sharing.

-c

 

[eddybo]

Re: Nosler Vs. Laupua Case life 308

It all depends on what wears out on your brass first......for me it is always primer pockets. Lapua brass has the hardest case heads that I am aware of. When Nosler brass quits holding primers I swage them in and still get longer life with lapua.

 

[scaxeman]

Re: Nosler Vs. Laupua Case life 308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ugsly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To my understanding Nosler brass is just Federal with the Nosler stamp on it. </div></div>

No comparison between the two. Totally different products. </div></div>


Its <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">possible</span></span> that they are two different product formulations, but Nosler Brass is most assuredly manufactured by Federal.

 

[kombayotch]

Re: Nosler Vs. Laupua Case life 308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FCS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I've used and gotten decent results with Win brass over the years but I DO NOT like the bulge in the brass. I don't have the bulge issue with Lapua and the Lapua lasts longer.
FCS </div></div>

I get the buldge with Lapua. Its only on one side, and much smaller, but under the right light you can see it.




What is the water capacity and neck thickness of Nosler 308 Win brass?

 

[NOBODY]

Re: Nosler Vs. Laupua Case life 308

R/P has long been my default favorite. Norma sucks ass. I dig Lapua 308,necked to 7mm and can suffer W/W in 223. W/W 284Win hulls are fucking amazing and I've much W/W WSM love(7mm and 30cal.).

LC'86 in 223,another favorite and despite the fucking hype I abhor IMI.

 

[NOBODY]

Re: Nosler Vs. Laupua Case life 308

Who chambered your rifle? Concentric chambers do NOT "bulge",even if fed shit hulls.

 

[Cardinal]

Re: Nosler Vs. Laupua Case life 308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Darrell Buell</div><div class="ubbcode-body">


Its <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">possible</span></span> that they are two different product formulations, but Nosler Brass is most assuredly manufactured by Federal.</div></div>

Norma also make brass for Nosler.

 

[NOBODY]

Re: Nosler Vs. Laupua Case life 308

Another reason why it has been shit,since inception.

I motherfucked it out of the gate and hurt feelers abounded...though none of them had popped a primer in it.

Folks act like subcontracting is something fucking new.

 

[GBMaryland]

Re: Nosler Vs. Laupua Case life 308

I guess this explains why I'm not seeing an 300WM Nosler brass...

In so far at Norma brass, I've gotten about 5 reloads out of them in 300WM... and I've got 1/4-1/2MOA groups with them.

I'm not having any issues with the Norma brass, but I did get it cheap... which is the only reason I bought it.

 

[NOBODY]

Re: Nosler Vs. Laupua Case life 308

The 300Winny is a forgiving case design,in that the sidewall taper isn't horrid,nor is the shoulder angle dismal and the neck length is certainly upon the brief side of the equation.

All of which helps negate brassflow.

Though a good chamber and good dies cement such things...while superior hulls eagerly await those wings.

 

[GBMaryland]

Re: Nosler Vs. Laupua Case life 308

So basically, even though the bases are same with a 375H&H... The neck shoulder explains why I see such serious neckflow and case thinning above the belt.

Interesting. Thanks.

 

[JLM]

Re: Nosler Vs. Laupua Case life 308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rafael</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have run one batch of Lapua to 100 reloads, certainly multiple batches over 50 reloads and quit counting.
Used to run them with 43.2 grains Varget and 175SMK, but moved up to 44 grains. Primer pockets get a bit loose but they still hold fine.
Am running the current batch at 44.5 Varget and 178Amax. We shall see, but I se no signs of these being any different.
I expect 50+. Never annealed any of them, ever.

My brass costs me less than my primers, per shot. </div></div>

WOW! 50-100? I wonder if that's typical across the board for most people?

How do you prep your brass?

 

[Rafael]

Re: Nosler Vs. Laupua Case life 308

I bump the shoulder no more than .002" with a Redding body die, then neck and deprime with a Redding Comp bushing die with a .336" bushing.
Lately I have moved to a .335" or .334" bushing for more thension.
Once in a while I will us a Redding type S f/l bushing die.....but it's the same sizing as with the other dies.

I don't anneal.
I trim only every so often.
Never split a neck.

 

[Clark]

Re: Nosler Vs. Laupua Case life 308

The brass wears out with three mechanisms:

1) case mouth cracks from work hardening
For this you can:
a) anneal necks
b) get a larger necked die
c) get a smaller necked reamer or chamber

2) case stretches to case head separation
For this you can:
a)get a less springy action, e.g. get rid of Ishapore.
b)stop pushing the shoulder back so far with sizer die.

3) primer pocket increases diameter until primer are a loose fit.
For this you can:
a) choose a cartridge with more brass between primer pocket and extractor groove. e.g. 6mmBR good, 308 ok, 10mm terrible
b) back off on the peak pressure by reducing powder charge, not jamming into the lands, get brass with more internal volume, use moly coated bullets, use lighter bullets, use a slower powder, etc.

 

[myerfire]

Re: Nosler Vs. Laupua Case life 308

I only use Lapua brass and I have a few batches that I have reloaded 45+ times. I anneal after the fourth or fifth firing. I only remember having one split neck.
myerfire

 

[USMCj]

Re: Nosler Vs. Laupua Case life 308

I cant wait for Frankford Arsenal to release their "Super Annealing Machine" I have e-mailed them a billion times asking them "is it ready yet?" lol

here is a link
http://www.opticsplanet.net/frankford-arsenal-super-annealing-machine-368761.html

 

[ranger1183]

Re: Nosler Vs. Laupua Case life 308


The Frankford Arsenal "Super Annealing Machine" looks pretty cool. Battery powered even! Very cool.

Regarding Nosler Brass, to me, it is great Match quality brass. I make no claims on how many firings it will hold up for.

Be forewarned! What follows is my opinion only!

[ON SOAPBOX]

But I would use Nosler brass if I <span style="font-weight: bold">HAD</span> to make a very precise (Bench Rest precise) shot. Nosler brass comes pre-sorted by weight, which eliminates one necessary and time consuming "bench rest accuracy" task. Having all the cases weighing the same is critical.

Second, that brass would be shot no more than 4 times (worse case scenario) which includes the final Precision shot that I just <span style="font-weight: bold">HAD</span> to make.


<span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">1st Shot</span></span> accomplishes two things.

A - It fire forms the brass to my exact chamber. This is absolutely critical (from my experience at least) for making Bench Rest Quality shots.

B - It is used to determine the ideal accuracy load. This is done by making and shooting a <span style="font-weight: bold">"Load Ladder"</span> in conjuction with fire forming. There are many different ways to do a <span style="font-weight: bold">"Load Ladder"</span> so I'll save that for later.


<span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">2nd Shot</span></span> verifies the findings of the <span style="font-weight: bold">Load Ladder</span> you conducted in step 1. Since Nosler Brass is pre-sorted by weight, your Load Ladder should give you your ideal load for your rifle.


<span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">3rd Shot</span></span> - But sometimes load ladder results aren't so clear in which case you would have to make and fire another Load Ladder. If <span style="font-weight: bold">not</span> required, <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">3rd Shot</span></span> becomes <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">Final Shot</span></span> (see below).

If that second load ladder is required, then it would be a "targeted" or "precision" load ladder. With the results of your 1st load ladder you can pin-point the exact area, or areas, that you want to hone in on. Load for those areas, shoot and verify those loads. That second load ladder should provide you with the exact, load or loads, you will want to load for.


<span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">Final Shot</span></span> - For the Day when Zombies try to take over the Earth.

You've perfected your exact precision load so you take that Nosler Brass, reload it as precisely as possible and then store those rounds in a manner which they will not corrode.

Here's the kicker. Since barrels change with every shot (and thus accuracy changes with every shot), the rifle needing to make that one perfect shot should be stored <span style="font-weight: bold">and NOT FIRED</span> along with the ammo.

Does that SUCK or what!

You see, that's what bench rest shooters do. They will practice with one rifle that they can shoot all they want and change barrels on when necessary. This rifle is used for delevoping technique and muscle memory for shooting perfect groups in a variety of conditions (calm, wind, rain, low and high humidity, low and high temperature, etc.)

They only use the Special Rifle for shooting Matches or for confirming their scope's zero prior to a match. It remains an EXACT <span style="font-weight: bold">known quantity</span> as much as possible.

My ideal Zombie rifle would have an identical twin (as much as possible) that I could train with. Practice makes Perfect, and that one perfect shot is taken with an exact known quantity.

And just to think, this doesn't even go into what is required for determining your exact Cold Bore shot!


So much for that. It is nothing more than one guys opinion. And opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and they all stink. good luck and good shooting!

[OFF SOAPBOX]

 

[308isgreat]

Re: Nosler Vs. Laupua Case life 308

I stopped counting after 30 firings with Lapua brass. Can't say about the Nosler stuff.................

 

[stickboy]

Re: Nosler Vs. Laupua Case life 308

Thanks guys!

Ranger1183 - What is a load ladder. I am a Newb....sorry. Nosler has been a good choice for under 10 reloads. Since the initial post, I have backed off the lands a bit and decreased the charge just a tad. It seems the primer pockets are better now.

Thanks everyone for the replies!

 

[ranger1183]

Re: Nosler Vs. Laupua Case life 308

I have not been able to post anything on line for awhile. if you want to send me your email address, i'll ship the word doc that explains the process and the excel spreadsheet with some loads already completed (but for a different barrel than yours). This should give you a good starting point.

 

[JLM]

Re: Nosler Vs. Laupua Case life 308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ranger1183</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have not been able to post anything on line for awhile. if you want to send me your email address, i'll ship the word doc that explains the process and the excel spreadsheet with some loads already completed (but for a different barrel than yours). This should give you a good starting point.
</div></div>

Ranger,

I THINK I may have seen the document of which you speak, but just in case I haven't I'm going to shoot you an IM with my email if you wouldn't mind. I'd like to see the spreadsheets in any instance.

Here's the one I found:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&star...z9iODQ&usg=AFQjCNHCHw3bVdcI1l7MGU1JkZ9ygwdDfA

For you dudes that are getting a crazy amount of firings out of the Lapua, are you just neck sizing and then using a body die when they get so big that they won't chamber?

I see Forster makes a a neck (bushing)/shoulder bump die. Interesting.