Not a reload... but needs some expertise

[bax]

Think of someone punching you in the back of your head, vs pushing the back of your head and which one do you think would hurt more.

Whether or not that's what happened, or whether or not it would be enough to bust off the lugs I don't know, but that's the gist of what you are asking be explained to you.

Edited to add: .007 headspace shouldn't even smoke brass like that, let alone an entire action.

I have been punched in the back of the head - y'all probably think that anyway But not from 20 thou. The ones I remember were from about 8 to 10 inches so they could develop some speed and momentum.

For that reason - insufficient time & distance to develop momentum based on my intuition about velocity and mass - I do not think that excessive headspace caused the problem. But, here are some statements made early in this thread:

Vasily: Majority of time this is caused by excessive headspace

Supercorndogs: Overload would blow the primer out. Looks a lot like what i would suspect would happen were you to shoot a 6GT in 6mm Creedmore chamber or something like that. I.E too much headspace.

ShtrRdy: I'm gonna guess a headspace issue.

m1Match: So it could caused by overpressure ammo, excessive headspace,

Yondering: Those are classic "false pressure signs" that are really signs of excess headspace.

Theis: 1. Excessive headspace..(Did the extractor click over the base before firing?)

Ledzep: Maybe high pressure, maybe a headspace problem, maybe a bad bolt head..

ALL I am asking is: am I wrong? Is there enough kinetic energy from a 20 thou headspace to break bolt lugs?

 

[Yondering]

I have been punched in the back of the head - y'all probably think that anyway But not from 20 thou. The ones I remember were from about 8 to 10 inches so they could develop some speed and momentum.

For that reason - insufficient time & distance to develop momentum based on my intuition about velocity and mass - I do not think that excessive headspace caused the problem. But, here are some statements made early in this thread:

Vasily: Majority of time this is caused by excessive headspace

Supercorndogs: Overload would blow the primer out. Looks a lot like what i would suspect would happen were you to shoot a 6GT in 6mm Creedmore chamber or something like that. I.E too much headspace.

ShtrRdy: I'm gonna guess a headspace issue.

m1Match: So it could caused by overpressure ammo, excessive headspace,

Yondering: Those are classic "false pressure signs" that are really signs of excess headspace.

Theis: 1. Excessive headspace..(Did the extractor click over the base before firing?)

Ledzep: Maybe high pressure, maybe a headspace problem, maybe a bad bolt head..

ALL I am asking is: am I wrong? Is there enough kinetic energy from a 20 thou headspace to break bolt lugs?

Good grief you’re stubborn aren’t ya. Most of us were talking about what caused the case head marks, as I already said above. Quit trying to make it seem that we said something else.

You can ask LedZep what he thought happened, but whatever it was, a small amount of headspace in one round isn’t the cause of this failure.

You think you’re being tricky, pretending you want to learn from smarter people while really thinking you’re smarter than everyone, but it’s pretty obvious that you’re just trying to stir up an argument.

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

I'm still waiting for a mic'd case measurement of some fired brass an any unfired that may be left.

Simple Trick for Monitoring Pressure of Your Rifle Reloads | Hodgdon Reloading

There is a slick method of checking, along with observing, typical case head pressure signs, that allows the reloader to work up safe maximum loads for each of his favorite rifle cartridges.

www.hodgdonreloading.com

Also, could the case head separation cause an increase in bolt thrust? Sort of like one would see in a lubed chamber?

 

[Doug k 042414]

I don’t have a mic.

Best I could do

Pic 1- virgin

Pic 2-fired from the last batch

I'm still waiting for a mic'd case measurement of some fired brass an any unfired that may be left.

Simple Trick for Monitoring Pressure of Your Rifle Reloads | Hodgdon Reloading

There is a slick method of checking, along with observing, typical case head pressure signs, that allows the reloader to work up safe maximum loads for each of his favorite rifle cartridges.

www.hodgdonreloading.com

Also, could the case head separation cause an increase in bolt thrust? Sort of like one would see in a lubed chamber?

 

[Doug k 042414]

I am an uneducated idiot myself, but i would say those marks occurred trying to free the bolt after the come apart. Separated parts created a gap between the bolt head and separated lugs. Now, working the bolt to free it scratched things up.

I really tried to find a pic of the scratch marks prior to this incident, but I don’t have one. I noticed the wear while cleaning the last time.

Wish I could just ask you to believe me, but I know that we have all ran into shitty people before. My overall goal is that transparency
On this, just not naming the companies for reputation sake

 

[Doug k 042414]

Update....
I have talked to the ammo company twice now. They have been really supportive and are buying back my unused ammo

The action company has received the action. They also issued a message to any owner from that batch of actions. They are requesting an immediate stop of use and a recall to test.

I will send the barrel to the manufacturer tomorrow

I will continue to update if/when I get info

 

[whatsupdoc]

It seems to me that the bolt handle and bolt body are most likely one piece and
that is what saved the day. With enough force to crack the receiver its amazing the
bolt handle held the breech closed.

If that bolt handle was brazed or dovetailed into the bolt the outcome would not been without
serious injury.

Man you are one lucky guy.

 

[Milo 2.5]

I really tried to find a pic of the scratch marks prior to this incident, but I don’t have one. I noticed the wear while cleaning the last time.

Wish I could just ask you to believe me, but I know that we have all ran into shitty people before. My overall goal is that transparency
On this, just not naming the companies for reputation sake

Lol, hey, I don't have a dog in this, I just hope you get it resolved. Knowing is comforting, even if you were the one who screwed up.

Unsolved mysteries suck.

 

[Yondering]

I'm still waiting for a mic'd case measurement of some fired brass an any unfired that may be left.

Simple Trick for Monitoring Pressure of Your Rifle Reloads | Hodgdon Reloading

There is a slick method of checking, along with observing, typical case head pressure signs, that allows the reloader to work up safe maximum loads for each of his favorite rifle cartridges.

www.hodgdonreloading.com

Also, could the case head separation cause an increase in bolt thrust? Sort of like one would see in a lubed chamber?

Case head measurements don't mean much unless you measure the same case before and after, and mark the case so you can measure the same spot. Just comparing random cases out of a batch is misleading; the measurement accuracy needed for this is finer than the tolerances of the brass dimensions for most manufacturers.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Update....
I have talked to the ammo company twice now. They have been really supportive and are buying back my unused ammo

The action company has received the action. They also issued a message to any owner from that batch of actions. They are requesting an immediate stop of use and a recall to test.

I will send the barrel to the manufacturer tomorrow

I will continue to update if/when I get info

Seems like it would be a good idea to know who's action it is.

 

[918v]

I have been punched in the back of the head - y'all probably think that anyway But not from 20 thou. The ones I remember were from about 8 to 10 inches so they could develop some speed and momentum.

For that reason - insufficient time & distance to develop momentum based on my intuition about velocity and mass - I do not think that excessive headspace caused the problem. But, here are some statements made early in this thread:

Vasily: Majority of time this is caused by excessive headspace

Supercorndogs: Overload would blow the primer out. Looks a lot like what i would suspect would happen were you to shoot a 6GT in 6mm Creedmore chamber or something like that. I.E too much headspace.

ShtrRdy: I'm gonna guess a headspace issue.

m1Match: So it could caused by overpressure ammo, excessive headspace,

Yondering: Those are classic "false pressure signs" that are really signs of excess headspace.

Theis: 1. Excessive headspace..(Did the extractor click over the base before firing?)

Ledzep: Maybe high pressure, maybe a headspace problem, maybe a bad bolt head..

ALL I am asking is: am I wrong? Is there enough kinetic energy from a 20 thou headspace to break bolt lugs?

No.

 

[Mordamer]

Seems like it would be a good idea to know who's action it is.

JJ Rock. You can see it in one of the pictures. Sounds like they are addressing it very well.

 

[Milo 2.5]

Seems like it would be a good idea to know who's action it is.

Why? I commend the OP for not acting like a little bitch here and pointing fingers w/o knowing what happened. He seems to be following a decent protocol and the action company is looking into it and issued a recall.
What more could one expect from them? At this point it serves no purpose to know. Even though it looks like someone let you know.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Why? I commend the OP for not acting like a little bitch here and pointing fingers w/o knowing what happened. He seems to be following a decent protocol and the action company is looking into it and issued a recall.
What more could one expect from them? At this point it serves no purpose to know. Even though it looks like someone let you know.

Because the company is issuing a stop-use and it effects more people than just the OP? Or was that a trick question?

 

[supercorndogs]

Stop use for a batch you don't know what is, so if it effects you they will let you know.

 

[Doug k 042414]

Ok gents.... update.
The action company hit me up and are replacing the action. I guess there was some issue that involves science beyond my primitive way of understanding things. I’m ore than happy with the treatment from all parties involved. All companies have been more than helpful with getting me back up and running.

Thanks for all the serious looks and inquiries. This is an awesome forum for people to use! There are some seriously knowledgeable folks on here.

 

[6.5SH]

Ok gents.... update.
The action company hit me up and are replacing the action. I guess there was some issue that involves science beyond my primitive way of understanding things. I’m ore than happy with the treatment from all parties involved. All companies have been more than helpful with getting me back up and running.

Thanks for all the serious looks and inquiries. This is an awesome forum for people to use! There are some seriously knowledgeable folks on here.

Issues from the nitriding?

 

[Doug k 042414]

Issues from the nitriding?

I honestly have no idea. It couldve been the metal from the bolt. My buddy was part of the small batch recall. He received a message to send back his bolt and bolt head. So possibly a tempering issue of some other reason that the metal was too brittle. I understand that there is way more that goes into this that what I understand. But that’s the best I’ve got for ya! I know it was only a small batch, so I think it was isolated and corrected.
Just for my knowledge, what could be an issue from nitriding? I only know that it makes working parts sexy smooth. Can you elaborate a bit for a layman?

 

[BullGear]

Congrats on a great outcome. Glad to see that good customer service isn't completely dead in this country.

 

[6.5SH]

I honestly have no idea. It couldve been the metal from the bolt. My buddy was part of the small batch recall. He received a message to send back his bolt and bolt head. So possibly a tempering issue of some other reason that the metal was too brittle. I understand that there is way more that goes into this that what I understand. But that’s the best I’ve got for ya! I know it was only a small batch, so I think it was isolated and corrected.
Just for my knowledge, what could be an issue from nitriding? I only know that it makes working parts sexy smooth. Can you elaborate a bit for a layman?

There have been issues reported with brittleness after nitriding. Isn't a universal thing, so likely many factors involved when it occurs.

 

[Doug k 042414]

There have been issues reported with brittleness after nitriding. Isn't a universal thing, so likely many factors involved when it occurs.

6.5HS-
Thanks for the heads up. I had no idea that was the case.

 

[Flatlanders shooter]

I probably should’ve included this pic from the onset, but I honestly was in shock. I believe the scrapes show continued contact from round 1. I believe the gouges came from the incident. Again, I’m not a metallurgist, physicist, engineer, or machinist. That could be another possibility.

I set mine up with minimum clearance. I want as much of the case supported by the barrel as possible. But to bind and chafe? A bit too tight. Seems to me the heat treat was a bit off and the bolt got too hard. No elasticity. Harder the steel the more brittle.

 

[Flatlanders shooter]

sooooo ... "excess headspace does contribute to the impact forces of the case against the bolt face". I'm going to pose a scenario in order to ask a question. Suppose: the bolt is intact with proper headspace. OP inserts a round with insufficient headspace, say .020 too short. I chose that number because if it was more than 30 thou too short, would the firing pin energize the primer? If it was 10 thou short, the case head would not get much "running start". So 20 thou. Firing pin drops, case slides forward against the extractor, primer fires, pressure builds in the case (because they are closer, side walls first) then the case expands along the case axis shoving the case base to impact the bolt face and starting to push the bullet into the barrel.

You are saying that the mass of the case, accelerated by this pressure, delivered enough additional force - that is, more force than normal - to shear off the bolt lugs? Please explain how that works?

Bad heat treat of the bolt solves this puzzle.