Not all rifles will shoot a boat tail bullet ????

C

cornhusker

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Aug 10, 2012
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Towandaa,Pa
#1
Maybe i'm crazy but I have tried different bullets and brass and powder and wonder if my new barrel hates those boat tails.
I have a new Mcgowin 223 wylde in 7 twist..It's driving me crazy...Tried fron 69 to 90 grain bullets at different MV.All testing
at 300 yards..So is it possible it don't like the damn things?

If I could find some flat base of the same weights I would be happy to try some..I am getting tired of trying....I need to be
able to compete from 3 to 500 yards with this thing...Maybe I made a bad choice in getting this 7 twist wylde chamber,
but had heard so many good things about it..I would appreciate any advice here...Is there such a thing as heavy flat base
bullets made? Thanks..
 
#2
Why are you assuming its the boat tail? What bullets and distances off the lands have you tried? If you have never tried a flat base, what makes you think that would fix your problem?
 
#3
Haven't never heard of the base having any effect on whether a rifle likes it or not.

Are you only trying matchkings or something from 69-90 or are you throwing in different lines and manufactures as well? In 223s the heavy bullets are tailored for long range and so they will have boat tails for less drag less at distance. 223 is not a dangerous/large game or subsonic friendly round so heavy flat bases don't have much to offer like they do in a 30 cal or larger where you can source plenty of them.

My 223 loves 69 custom comps but hates the new 70 rdf, go figure. I spent 500 rounds testing every possible combination. What looks like it could be close can be vastly different and what looks different could be close, there's no telling what your rifles loves until you find it.

How thoroughly are you testing each each of these rounds that you're trying. If you're not fully vetting them you could be just skimming over the sweet spots.
How far are you loading them? Matched brass or just range pick up. Lots of details to be had to help make a more educated guess instead of just shooting in the dark here
 
#5
I found that ours in 7.77 twist like it fast 75 grain pushed to 3100. Shot like crap under that. It's the low tip of the fast node. Slow node is well under 2920. For the 75 grain Amax. Like spife said. Another manufacturing co will have their bullet built differently. So things will be. Different. For lack of a better word
 
#6
Well,FWIW I made a few phone calls to some gun smiths and ask them the same question.They all said that there are some barrels that WILL not perform
well with boat tail bullets.
To answer some of your questions,I have tried Bergers,Sierra,Hornady and a few barns bullets..It would take me all day to list the things I have tried.
Such as Fed,Win,Hornady,LC of different dates.Lapua ..Several different OAL from a jam to a major jump..As well as several different powders and
primers.About the only thing I have not tried to date are magnum primers..Now one of the smiths did tell me that he had seen where like 4064 and W 748
H335 do perform better with the magnum primers. So I might just try them..Now I know you aren't going to believe it,but I have put close to 900 rounds
thru this barrel with out a lot of success.. All my load testing is done at 300 yards..So I still wish I could fine some 70 to 85 grain flat bass just to see if there
is a differenct..The sierra 80's I hear are ment to be jammed ??So I am still open to suggestions...

One other thing that comes to mind is that this is a wylde chamber and perhaps I should be trying loads for the 556 instead of the 223 loads. I notice there
is different data for both or them..Anyway that's where I am at right now....
 
#7
Check the crown. I'd get a box of 69smk (or even 52/53gr) and work up with the H335 you have. If the crown's good and it won't shoot the 69smk, get rid of that barrel. IMHO, even if you could find flat base match bullets in the 70 to 85gr range, the bc would still suck for a bullet of that weight.
 
#9
cornhusker said:
Well,FWIW I made a few phone calls to some gun smiths and ask them the same question.They all said that there are some barrels that WILL not perform
well with boat tail bullets.
To answer some of your questions,I have tried Bergers,Sierra,Hornady and a few barns bullets..It would take me all day to list the things I have tried.
Such as Fed,Win,Hornady,LC of different dates.Lapua ..Several different OAL from a jam to a major jump..As well as several different powders and
primers.About the only thing I have not tried to date are magnum primers..Now one of the smiths did tell me that he had seen where like 4064 and W 748
H335 do perform better with the magnum primers. So I might just try them..Now I know you aren't going to believe it,but I have put close to 900 rounds
thru this barrel with out a lot of success.. All my load testing is done at 300 yards..So I still wish I could fine some 70 to 85 grain flat bass just to see if there
is a differenct..The sierra 80's I hear are ment to be jammed ??So I am still open to suggestions...

One other thing that comes to mind is that this is a wylde chamber and perhaps I should be trying loads for the 556 instead of the 223 loads. I notice there
is different data for both or them..Anyway that's where I am at right now....
Click to expand...

It's not a bullet thing, or a powder thing. Unfortunately it's most likely you got a bad barrel or the GS didn't do a good job or both.

It could be a scope thing or loose screws anywhere in the system. Maybe even a carbon ring.

Friend and I recently discovered a chassis system that has enough flex to cause a vertical spread.

 
#10
Get a box of Federal Match, 77 grain Match Kings about 2700 - 2750 fps. Give them a try over a chrono and target at 300 yards. If they shoot well try 24ish grains of Varget adjust to match velocity. For most heavy .223/5.56 rounds use magnum primers.
 
#11
cornhusker said:
Well,FWIW I made a few phone calls to some gun smiths and ask them the same question.They all said that there are some barrels that WILL not perform
well with boat tail bullets.
To answer some of your questions,I have tried Bergers,Sierra,Hornady and a few barns bullets..It would take me all day to list the things I have tried.
Such as Fed,Win,Hornady,LC of different dates.Lapua ..Several different OAL from a jam to a major jump..As well as several different powders and
primers.About the only thing I have not tried to date are magnum primers..Now one of the smiths did tell me that he had seen where like 4064 and W 748
H335 do perform better with the magnum primers. So I might just try them..Now I know you aren't going to believe it,but I have put close to 900 rounds
thru this barrel with out a lot of success.. All my load testing is done at 300 yards..So I still wish I could fine some 70 to 85 grain flat bass just to see if there
is a differenct..The sierra 80's I hear are ment to be jammed ??So I am still open to suggestions...

One other thing that comes to mind is that this is a wylde chamber and perhaps I should be trying loads for the 556 instead of the 223 loads. I notice there
is different data for both or them..Anyway that's where I am at right now....
Click to expand...

If you've done all of this using 556 data instead of 223 data isn't going to change anything assuming you're doing a proper load workup. You are doing a proper load workup and not just blindly picking a charge and running with it, right? If you're not doing a proper load workup then you need to be. The books are only a guideline, trusting that a companies accuracy load or even max pressures are going to translate to your application is foolish.

If you have done a proper work up, I can guarantee you that it's not from using boat tail bullets. The only difference they may make is generally being a bit longer than the same weight flat base bullet so they may not stabilize in the same twist rate. This should not be a concern in your rifle at all being a 7 twist, those bullets are plenty stable.

Hate to say it but if you have done everything right there's a good chance you just have a bad barrel. As someone else mentioned, get some high quality 77gr factory match ammo (FGMM or black hills red box is the tried and true) and shoot a few groups. If accuracy is still poor then you can probably safely assume this is the case.
 
#12
got to thinking about it more and wonder,maybe I aint pushing these 80 or 85's fast enough...Was always one to notget into maxloads,etc..PLUS
I have read several articles about 77 grain bullets being about the max for the 7 twist.???? Who knows what to believe now days...Would appreciate
a little more advice on loads for the 85 gr in a 7 twist....
 
#13
! in 7 should be plenty. You sure there isn't something else wrong with the rifle.

It could be the bullet also. I have a 308 BA built by LRI, wont shoot the 155 nosler CC with 8208, RL15, or Varget. I tried the third one just to see. I would check the rifle over also.
 
#14
called Berger today and was told to try the oal system in their book.So I will be doing that.Being a VLD design they may want a deeper seating to be accurate.
Just may not be able to get the higher MV I would like to achieve..If it isn't raining I plan to do some load testing tomorrow afternoon...
 
#16
What distance are you shooting? I've noticed some bullets like the 140 rdf shoots great at longer distance like 3-400 yards but at 100 it doesn't group as tight and I feel like it's due to it not being fully stabilized until it's further out. I was told a Flatbase bullet is the best for shooting super tight groups at 100
 
#17
74gtf100 said:
What distance are you shooting? I've noticed some bullets like the 140 rdf shoots great at longer distance like 3-400 yards but at 100 it doesn't group as tight and I feel like it's due to it not being fully stabilized until it's further out. I was told a Flatbase bullet is the best for shooting super tight groups at 100
Click to expand...

Thats you not the bullet.

 
#18
All loads shot at 300 yards...I dount it's the barrel..I already talked to them about it..If anything the chamber isn't long enough for these bullets..And as far as some rifles
not shooting boat tails they even conferemed that as well....Idid'nt understand all the tech stuff..But that's a fact jack...And they told be to try different seating dept as was
as berger..I aint going tounscrew the barrel forno reason..
 
#19
cornhusker said:
All loads shot at 300 yards...I dount it's the barrel..I already talked to them about it..If anything the chamber isn't long enough for these bullets..And as far as some rifles
not shooting boat tails they even conferemed that as well....Idid'nt understand all the tech stuff..But that's a fact jack...And they told be to try different seating dept as was
as berger..I aint going tounscrew the barrel forno reason..
Click to expand...

I know Dave Tooley and others have said, if the bullet doesn't show any promise, move on. Some guns wont shoot some bullets. My 308 is a great example. 1-1.5 moa with 155 CC's at best. But a trued .308 with a kreiger barrel, it easily shoots sub half with many other bullets.

I would grab 100 of something else and try it.

The first time LRI did my 308 it would not shoot anything. Sent it back, they checked it over and couldn't find a problem, they confirmed it did not shoot, got another Kreiger, re-barrelled it, and its great. If kreiger can make a bad tube McCowen can.
 
#20
My buddy has a 24" 1-7 mcgowen wylde chambered barrel. Below is a low node load that shoots awesome. Shoots real slow <2700 fps so it is a safe load to just load and try.

75 gr bthp hornady seated to 2.260" oal over 22.4gr 8208 shoots in the .2-.5 moa at 100-300 barring missing wind calls.

Loading longer will allow some greater gains in velocity.
 
#21
GGK said:
My buddy has a 24" 1-7 mcgowen wylde chambered barrel. Below is a low node load that shoots awesome. Shoots real slow <2700 fps so it is a safe load to just load and try.

75 gr bthp hornady seated to 2.260" oal over 22.4gr 8208 shoots in the .2-.5 moa at 100-300 barring missing wind calls.

Loading longer will allow some greater gains in velocity.
Click to expand...


That is a mild load.

8208 and 75/77's between 23.2 and 23.6 is a very common accuracy combination.
 
#22
Steel head said:
That is a mild load.

8208 and 75/77's between 23.2 and 23.6 is a very common accuracy combination.
Click to expand...

This load works in basically every 223 I've shot it in.

The current load for that bolt gun is 23.8 gr at an OAL of 2.340" (.020" off of the lands) Shoots about 2910 fps with an SD of about 12 with cheap primers and non annealed LC cases.
 
#23
GGK said:
This load works in basically every 223 I've shot it in.

The current load for that bolt gun is 23.8 gr at an OAL of 2.340" (.020" off of the lands) Shoots about 2910 fps with an SD of about 12 with cheap primers and non annealed LC cases.
Click to expand...

Same here
23.4 in my SPR build.
23.2-23.6 seems the common AR range.
23.4-23.8 for bolt guns.
I've seen bolt guns get to 24, that's getting pretty hot.



 
#24
Steel head said:
Same here
23.4 in my SPR build.
23.2-23.6 seems the common AR range.
23.4-23.8 for bolt guns.
I've seen bolt guns get to 24, that's getting pretty hot.
Click to expand...

I've seen some loads pushing the 75/80 ELD-M in excess of 3000 fps. They are using in excess of 25 gr from what I've been told. Next load development I am running up past the 24 gr I've been to with the 75 gr ELD-M. No pressure signs on 24.
 
#25
GGK said:
I've seen some loads pushing the 75/80 ELD-M in excess of 3000 fps. They are using in excess of 25 gr from what I've been told. Next load development I am running up past the 24 gr I've been to with the 75 gr ELD-M. No pressure signs on 24.
Click to expand...

My 28" 223 wylde 1 in7 does 3000fps with the 75 a max 25 point something of varget. I don't remember the exact charge. OAL was around 2.55. Put me about .02 off the lands. I got more speed before pressure with rl15 with the 77 nosler CC, I haven't tried it with the 75 a max.
 
#26
I know some barrels will have a preference, or won't shoot a particular bullet well, but to try that many and not find one that shoots acceptably is strange.
In ref to bullets going to "sleep", it is a proven phenomenon, but they should certainly be stabilized well before 300 yards.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pF8W5liSRc

If the crown itself isn't bad, I'd look somewhere inside.
Sometimes, a barrel is just a turd.
Do you know anyone with a borescope?

If you don't want to shit can the barrel, you may want to lap it with some bore paste, it may be something as simple as a burr in the tube.
 
#27
So have you went and picked up a few boxes of factory match 75/77g ammo to eliminate your handloads? If that barrel doesnt shoot 75/77g bullets then it would be gone in a heart beat. Thats a fact.
 
#28
Reduced the load and did a .030 jump...Using cfe 223 I shot a a 5 shot group into .636 inch with 1 flyer about 1/4 inch from the 5 shot group..After reading some data
about a slower MV being better which proved it does work.I will repeat this load again and get the mv...Maybe also increase the charge .5 grains at a time to see what
happens.. forgot to mention..this was at 300 yards...
 
Last edited:
#29
cornhusker said:
Reduced the load and did a .030 jump...Using cfe 223 I shot a a 5 shot group into .636 inch with 1 flyer about 1/4 inch from the 5 shot group..After reading some data
about a slower MV being better which proved it does work.I will repeat this load again and get the mv...Maybe also increase the charge .5 grains at a time to see what
happens..
Click to expand...

Do you have a chrono?

if so load 10 charges of .2 gr increments that ends somewhere about 1 gr above max charge from hodgdon's website. Jamming the bullet .010" monitoring pressure signs the whole way up. Find the nodes by finding where the charge increase does not equal a velocity increase. Then load up some charges in those ranges .020" of the lands and odds are you will find a load that is both safe and accurate. (The jam causes the highest pressure you can possibly get, that way you can find your max powder load) If it still doesn't shoot play with the bullet jump.

Honestly skipping around large jumps in powder charge without data is why so many people struggle to find a load that works. This method above save quite a bit of time and components. When you shoot them you can do it at distance or at 100 yards. The distance shots can tell you more about where each charge hits, but the MV data should be enough to tell you what is going on.

 
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