Not satisfied with my Remington 700's group size...

[TeaRex]

I've been shooting frequently for several years now with the same rifle - a Remington 700 SPS 30-06 24". Over the past 3 years, I have tried many things, but I have never been able to get the rifle to group better than 1.5-2.0" at 100 yards. I have spent a lot of money on upgrades and ammo trying to find a setup that will give me ~1.0" or less at 100 yards, but I have never been able to get there. I was shooting the same size groups with the stock 7.5# rifle as I am now with still an AICS chassis, NF NXS scope with Larue mounts, and lightened x-mark 2.5# trigger. I have tried every type of factory ammo that I can get my hands on, and when I wasn't satisfied with that, I started reloading. Even though I enjoy the reloading process, it hasn't help shrink my group size one bit.

So my question for everyone is this: what can I do to get ~1.0" or smaller groups out of this rifle? The next potential steps in my mind are (1) having the rifle 'accurized' by a gunsmith, (2) replace the barrel with a non-sporting contour, (3) give up, sell the rifle, and start from scratch again with the scope / chassis on a new build.

I've attached two pics of typical groups. All shooting was done with a Caldwell front rest and a sand bag at the rear. I have spent a lot of time practicing good shooting form, dry-firing, etc, and I'd like to believe that I'm not the problem. When I have shot other guy's rifles at the range, I have usually done better than with my own rifle!

The wide-angle shoot-n-c pic is from ~1 month ago at 100 yards in light wind.

The second pic of four individual targets is at 200 yards in 12-15 mph wind. Bottom left group was used for scope / wind adjustment for a new load. The top right group was really nice, but unfortunately is the exception to the rule.

 

[ShtrRdy]

can you post a picture of your rifle? I didn't quite understand if you're using the AICS, NF scope, and Larue mounts?

Have you had someone else try shooting your rifle?

 

[Killshot44]

First off, don't be too hard on yourself. That won't help.

Rare are the rifles that shoot small with factory ammo. But without knowing your handloading ability, that may or may not be helping your cause.

A lightweight, factory barreled 30-06 isn't going to shoot sub-inch groups at 100yds on a regular basis. It is not a caliber seen in target shooting outside of M1Garand matches.

Have you tried shooting prone with it? It may help with your rifle-handling and target alignment. From a bench you're going to have a lot of recoil/hop.
Have you let a known (better) shooter try it?
Have you ever shot sub-inch groups with another rifle? If not, you're unlikely to with this
Was this your first centerfire? You may simply be recoil-averse.

Be honest in your answers and self-assessment before you throw money after a problem.

 

[long range newbie]

ok I bought a rem 700 sporter in 308win. I went shooting and it shot like a bag of S*** even after breaking it in. gave up after 60rnds through it got it a new barrel (made by a local barrel smith) in 260 rem with 1:8 twist but the scope I had on it was at the end of its life so currently trying to get a new one the barrel is 28in with light palma contour.

 

[McCrazy]

Another issue is your sporter contour barrel is not intended to maintain accuracy for extended strings of fire.

If I were you I would get a aftermarket barrel in a heavier contour and get it chambered and mounted by an accomplished gunsmith. I would also recommend a different caliber. If you are say stuck on .30 cal since you have components for it, the .308 and .300 Win Mag are both very good rounds in their arenas.

 

[TeaRex]

Thanks for all the responses.

Here's a pic of the rifle. It has the AICS 2.0 stock, NF scope with Larue 104 mounts.

I've let a few other people shoot the rifle, and I've never seen anyone get groups much better than mine. But I've also never handed anyone the rifle and said "shoot a few groups as small as you can."

I've tried prone, and usually do about the same or a little worse than at the bench.

I have shot a few other rifles with better results. I shot a friend's Larue OBR 223 recently and got 5 shots in a quarter size group at 100 yds with a 6x scope.

Yes, this is my first centerfire rifle. When the rifle was stock at 7.5 #, I think the recoil was definitely a factor. But at almost double that weight now, I feel pretty confident that I don't have a significant flinch.

A few other people have suggested that I ditch the '06. I am not particularly attached to the caliber. When I selected it, I wanted a gun that would be able to hunt just about any animal in the US and hopefully allow me to shoot at longer distance some. There are plenty of other calibers that I'd like to try that would be better suited to tactical shooting (maybe .260 or .243?). I have a semi-auto .308 on order, but that is still ~6 mo out unfortunately.

 

[Nickmz]

I have had a similar issue with a rem 700 AAC-SD in .308. I tried multiple factory rounds and reloads with no help in the accuracy department. I wish I had some good advice for you, but I put that rifle aside and went with custom 260 and fixed all accuracy issues. Planning on pulling it back out of cold storage and sending to a smith.

 

[kis2]

if you have a semi 308 on the way and this long action, I'd turn it into something like a winmag.

putting that aside though, definitely take the advice the others have given. on top of all that, you may have just gotten a bad barrel or something, could just get it checked out by a smith, see if there is an obvious flaw. you have a lot of quality components, so I'd be eyeballing the factory barrel and action. other quick and easy thing to do is make sure everything is torqued down right. I'm sure youve done that, just want to make sure to try the easy stuff before the hard ones.

not that I think its the issue, but what are you loading up for these groups?

 

[midmoguy]

You already have a great setup minus the barrel, just rebarrel it in the caliber of your choice and you will have a hell of a gun.
like others have said sporter barrels aren't meant for target shooting.

 

[Mendy300wm]

Get rid of the mount and get some quality rings, other than that you have a very capable setup. Smaller barrels are picky about loads keep doing some load work up and you should have a 1 moa gun

 

[midmoguy]

I highly doubt the Larue mount is the problem, if so its the first case I have heard of

 

[RobertB]

My buddy has the larue mount so he can use his NF on 2 differnt guns. I told him it was a terrible idea and it would shift like crazy. But so far from what I have seem him do, its' always been within a click at 100 yds. I was impressed with that.

OP, if that is the accuracy you said you want, have it rebarreled with a decent bbl, it doesn't have to be too heavy to be accurate, when your buying quality bbls I relized that after about 3-4 guns being tack driver but crazy heavy, my last 2 rifles were smaller bbls and my lightweight 6.5 CM built by GAP is crazy accurate. It shoots with my surgeon MTU coutnour 260 and m40 countour 308's long and short bbls.

I have went with kreiger/bartlien on all guns but my custom 7stw in which I went with a shilen. The shilen is a very small bbl and is accurate but I would reccomend a kreiger or barltien since you have a great setup other that bbl.

After all the money you have spent on your other components which are top notch, don't risk it on a half priced bbl. You won;t regret it if a good smith does it for you. And if you will be shooting it alot and nothing else I would recommend bedding your chassis to. I have been lug bedding my last 3 manners mini chassis and they are rock solid.

Good luck

 

[Sterling Shooter]

OP,

If the rifle is not broken and the ammunition is not defective (call/strike evaluation would discern this), your analysis should begin with this fact: the bullet will ALWAYS go in the direction the barrel is pointed. What does that mean? It means the only thing we know for sure here is that the barrel was pointed in the direction where bullets struck. Now, even though we only know one thing for sure, by deduction, we can suspect, since bullets went someplace other than where you aimed them, that you did not have consistent control of the rifle and/or a consistent perspective of aim. In other words, you may be confusing execution of the firing tasks with knowing how to shoot; but, since you may not know this, you are seeking improvement by adjustment of equipment to serve as a substitute for marksmanship.

Although I could tell you how to do it here, I don't think it would be sufficient to get the results you are seeking. Instead, I suggest you solicit help from someone who actually knows how to do it to show you how to do it.

One more thing, you can ignore what I've said and pursue success by building a match grade rifle and feeding it with match grade ammo. I'm certain these aids will improve your results, but only at short range where they will mask the effect of your errors. At long range it does not matter how good your equipment is, good results will require some acquaintance with the principles of marksmanship and the elements and factors of a steady position.

 

[proneshooter]

Have you shot a known accurate rifle and been able to duplicate the results that its owner gets? If so, then you have mostly taken yourself out of the inaccuracy equation.

If you haven't done so, I strongly suggest that you find out what your true shooting ability is so that you can understand and evaluate just how much of your rifle's inaccuracy is inherent and how much of it is your fault.

 

[Skg_Mre_Lght]

That really isn't too bad with a sporter weight rifle, stock and optics not withstanding.

Very few rifle and shooters are capable of 1 MOA all day long, at any range.

I would rebarrel it, and if it shoots sub-MOA all the time, you are a lucky man indeed.

 

[HogBoss]

My story has some similarities with yours... I bought a Remington 700 ADL .30-06 about 5 years ago and have shot it with increasing frequency over the past two years. Until recently, I was getting 1.5 - 2 MOA with anything I fed it. Mostly I fed it handloads which made me feel even worse about my inability to get good groupings.

No matter how hard I tried, I was almost always over 1 MOA. Recently, during the ammo shortage, I wanted to shoot my 06 but didn't have time for reloading, so I picked up the only 06 ammo I could find - 180gr SP Federal rounds at Walmart ($15/20 rounds - no boat tail, nothing special here).

The first three shots with it I put them in one hole at 100 yards. The next two shots ended up 1.5 inches up and right in a single hole. I went through my notes and saw that I had experienced a similar pattern a couple times in the past.

I then put the ammo away and proceeded to dry fire until my hand couldn't take it anymore. I realized that, for some reason, my trigger pull would jerk the crosshairs up and right ~1.5 MOA about 25% of the time. I worked on repositioning my finger on the trigger slightly until the anomaly ceased to occur. I couldn't believe that for years I had been screwing up due to a trigger pull and grip that wasn't working for me and that I hadn't tried the troubleshooting technique listed above earlier.

After dry firing until my hand was cramped and sore, I rested a few minutes, then got back on the rifle, loaded a round, and managed to put it right into the center of the target along with the original 3 shots. I put seven more shots downrange in short order and not a single one went even close to the two in the upper right. My grouping (minus the two that were jerked off center) was 3/4 of an inch. It was the best day at the range I've ever had.

My ADL is bone stock and my scope is a POS Cabelas scope that came w/ the rifle that slips the scales half the time. I guess the takeaway for you in this long-winded narration would be that even after years of shooting with a rifle, sometimes you need to break down everything about your technique and experiment with changing one variable at a time. For me, it was finger position on the trigger that was leaving me vulnerable to inconsistency. For months I'd been blaming my scope and rifle for my lack of improvement.

It's possible that your barrel is bad or something, but I'd suggest you break down everything about your technique and really hold each aspect to the fire before you give up on this rifle.

 

[RobertB]

Yes, technique is important with match grade but more important on field grade rifles. My custom STW is a very accurate hunting rifle but since it is a narrow stock/bbl it is harder to master and fundamentals come into play even more. I can lay behind my target rifles and shoot .25 MOA and go to the STW and if you don't think before you start shooting you will shoot about 1 MOA or better. If you think about your position and make sure your natural point of aim is right your poi/poa will come together a lot better. You can be torqueing the rifle much more on them than you realize. Since you are shooting yours in an AICS I imagine your setup is pretty forgiving and if you've been shooting it a while with those components I'm sure most everything is thought out. I would bet my money on it being your bbl. Marksmanship skills are great to have but so are great components. If you have great gear and your shooting is still not up to par then you know where to look. To me, accurate rifles just make it to where I know the problems lies in me and I'm not doing my job right.

Auto races have great drivers but they also have fast cars. If you want to run with the crowd you need to have the right gear, and be the best you can be.

Good luck

 

[blair]

Tag- great information

 

[Manocles]

I bought my Rem 700 ADL, 270WIN with a standard 24" barrel in 1988 from a local gunshop. I had them mount a 3-9x42 Bushnell (then made in Japan) on very high Kwik-Site see thru mounts. That gun always shot 3" or better with a variety of different off the shelf ammo.
After a severe rain storm during 2012 MD Deer Firearms Season I wiped the gun down and put it away, but didn't think to remove the stock for further drying and application of some oil. The groups opened to 6" shortly thereafter due to swelling under the barrel at the sling stud. I removed the stock and sling swivel, ground @ 1/8" off the stud, and sanded out the barrel channel with a piece of broom stick and coarse sandpaper. I excessively floated the barrel and the groups came back down to 3" and better.
Recently I decided to give her a complete makeover. I installed a Stocky's Stocks laminate wood stock with Hart's aluminum V-block, an adjustable Timney trigger set to 3#, steel NF picatinny base, Vortex rings, and a Burris 3-9x40 C4 scope calibrated to 130gr .270 WIN. The result is consistent sub moa groups at 100yd from sand bag using silver box Winchester Power Point 130gr. ammo. I'm a good shooter with 47 yo tired eyes, but I'm not an expert by far.
The results are excellent, but I do not like the additional 1lb+ and the extra thickness in handgrip area. I can not complain though because it is a 26 year old stock hunting (sporter) barrel with close to 2000 rounds through it. I would have to say BS if someone else told me that. Targets used were 50' US ARMY Smallbore Rifle with 12- 1 3/8" black bulls (@100yd).

 

[djskit]

Factory rifle with sporter barrel is a crap-shoot in terms of how accurate it can be. As other's have mentioned, those are actually pretty decent results considering what you are working with.

Next time you are at the range, find a buddy (or make a new friend) with an accurate rifle and send a few down range, that might show some problems with technique.

 

[MarkCO]

I own a 1976 Rem 700 in .30-06. I get just about 1.2" groups at 100 yards for 5 rounds if I do my part. In 1988, I bought another Rem 700 .30-06 and the best group I ever shot with it was 4.2" for 5 shots at 100 yards...it is gone and the old one still holds between 1 and 1.5 MOA. I just don't think they get any better than that on average with the factory sporter barrel, and some are much worse. My .260 and .308 Rem 700s are much better, but they are not sporter grade and the .260 has a custom barrel.

 

[Graham]

Did you have a question?

 

[Manocles]

I don't believe in minute of deer, but 1-1.5" for a hunting rifle is great with a skinny barrel and box ammo. I don't know if it's barrel inconsistency, ammo, rifle stock, or if gun manufacturers make lemons too.

 

[ShhDontMove]

The first thing I would do is get my hands on some match grade factory ammo along a few different bullet weights. I'm not saying your reloading skills suck, but match grade ammo is going to be consistent and will help you find out what exactly your gun likes to feed without you buying all the different bullets and powders.

The next upgrade would be the stock personally. It sounds like you've spend quite a few dollars on your rifle so far, at this point I would almost argue you should have built a custom action with a superb barrel then dropped it in your chassis. If you're still running a chassis that is going to help free float your barrel and get the best vibration consistency for your rifle. It sounds like you got a quality chassis.

After you have a chassis, if you're still seeing less than optimal accuracy and you know its not your scope being loose, your chassis not being torqued properly, your shooting position not being correct, or hundreds of potential problems, then I would say get a better barrel. There are a lot of well respected barrel manufacturers out there. If you go into the Bolt Action Rifle section of the forum you can see what the professionals use. Now concerning your current barrel: if you're running a stock Remmy barrel, its not the best. And if its thin, its going to heat up quickly which will negatively effect your groups. So I would personally fire at a 100 yd target very slowly. You could give the barrel up to 10 mins or more between each shot, and then fire another and wait all over again. You probably know this but it doesnt hurt to remind. But if you get a high quality barrel you wouldn't have to even wait, you could fire away and EXPECT great results.

 

[obscurotron]

I too have experienced the '700 Curse', as I like to call it. My c.2006 BDL in '06 shoots about the same off the bench, a little better prone (bags or bipod, it's the same). For 7 years I fought with that rifle and worked on technique, tried different ammo, etc. This year I got into reloading and one of the first things I did was work up some loads (on the lighter side, as I was ramping up). I found a sweet spot for the 700's at about 2740 fps. I say 700's because I found a couple of other guys in my club with 'the curse', and made a load suggesting. Groups ramped down from 2-3 MOA @ 100 benched to 3/4 to 1 MOA. Most factory '06 ammo is pushing the pill 2850+ fps, many closer to 2950.

FWIW, just one man's experience.

 

[ankratz]

I'm a brand new shooter to long range, but so far this is the best I can do out of my Rem700 SPS for groups:

Yet, I got out to 1000 for my first time a few weeks ago, and was able to consistently hit (like 6 out of 6, or 6 out of 7 or something) on the 1k plate with the same rifle (but shooting 175 SMK's).

So I don't know. I'll take the consistency at 1000 over pretty groups at 100

Edit: spelling

 

[Sterling Shooter]

I'm a brand new shooter to long range, but so far this is the best I can do out of my Rem700 SPS for groups:

Yet, I got out to 1000 for my first time a few weeks ago, and was able to consistently hit (like 6 out of 6, or 6 out of 7 or something) on the 1k plate with the same rifle (but shooting 175 SMK's).

So I don't know. I'll take the consistency at 1000 over pretty groups at 100

Edit: spelling

Don't look at it as one thing over another thing. Shooting at 100 yard targets allows you to see hits and therefore plot shots, without the need for pit service. Plotting calls and shots permits error diagnosis, which accelerates marksmanship development.

Your grouping shows all shots are misplaced. It shows vertical dispersion in two groupings. This sort of error indicates a multitude of shooter errors/problems. You simply may not understand what's actually important to good shooting from what you believe is important.

The surprise is that you are hitting a target at LR. This means your error is mostly linier rather than angular. That's to say, your error is not likely to be associated with inconsistent perspective of aim, but rather, an unstable position creating inconsistent arc of movement and recoil resistance. Some of the possible causes for this sort of error are: varying head pressure on stock, varying butt to shoulder position, poor follow through, and too low a position.

 

[tackb]

first check your stock bolts are tight and all the other simple things like a free floating barrel etc

then get a smith to shorten and recrown your rifle (I have a factory 308 with original barrel shortened to 20" and its a 1/2 gun with hornady tap ammo)

if the shortening works, great , either leave as is or get a custom barrel. if not then the finger is firmly pointing at your barrel being the problem?

 

[ankratz]

Don't look at it as one thing over another thing. Shooting at 100 yard targets allows you to see hits and therefore plot shots, without the need for pit service. Plotting calls and shots permits error diagnosis, which accelerates marksmanship development.

Your grouping shows all shots are misplaced. It shows vertical dispersion in two groupings. This sort of error indicates a multitude of shooter errors/problems. You simply may not understand what's actually important to good shooting from what you believe is important.

The surprise is that you are hitting a target at LR. This means your error is mostly linier rather than angular. That's to say, your error is not likely to be associated with inconsistent perspective of aim, but rather, an unstable position creating inconsistent arc of movement and recoil resistance. Some of the possible causes for this sort of error are: varying head pressure on stock, varying butt to shoulder position, poor follow through, and too low a position.

Thank you, Sterling, this is quite helpful actually.

I've had some informal instruction from a shooter who knows much more than I in between that group shot, and eventually hitting 1000. I think what got me to 1000 is listening to his advice, some of which is dead-on with what you mentioned in your reply. My focus right now is really working on fundamentals, and it seems to be helping.

Much appreciated.

 

[1SMALLJOHNSON]

Well, it seems that we have two schools of thought. First is that pencil-thin barrels just can't shoot, and the other that the OP just can't shoot. Ultimately, none of us know the answer, but it has been fun reading all the ideas.

The one thing that no one has mentioned yet is "Scope Parallax".

Easy to figure: Put your rifle in/on a rest, so that it won't move. Without touching the rifle, move your head behind the scope, so that you can see "a target" AND the cross-hairs. Now, move your head left, right, up and down. If your parallax is adjusted correctly, the cross-hairs will barely move. But, if the parallax is NOT adjusted correctly, you'll see those cross-hairs moving all over the map.

Adjust the cross-hairs until they move as little as possible. NORMALLY, the parallax is adjusted by way of the threaded eye-piece. Loosen the locking ring, then move the eyepiece until you achieve the desired effect.

Best regards,

1smalljohnson