F T/R Competition Novice F-Class beginner idea

[SPDSNYPR]

My 15-year old has started getting interested in shooting more lately. I recently started shooting the occasional f-class match with my work rifle just for trigger time. The boy asked if he could come along, and maybe shoot.

So, digging through the safe, I come up with this older AR that hasn't seen the light of day in many years.

Old post-ban armalite with a 9-twist barrel, Nikon mil dot 2.5-10x scope. That ought to work OK, but I'm not a fan of the 9 twist since I have a bunch of 77 and 80 grain ammo already loaded up from back when I used to shoot service rifle. So I start perusing barrels that would shoot these pills a little better, since I literally have around 2k of them sitting in my closet. White Oak sells both 20" and 26" barrels in 1-8, which should stabilize the 80 grain (since he would have to single load anyway).

This gun is not going to do anything other than shoot a few matches to get his feet wet. I have several other AR's with shorter barrels. I was leaning toward the 26" barrel - higher velocity=less drop and less wind drift. More weight equals less recoil - good for kids trying to learn fundamentals.

The only problem is it's several weeks of wait for the barrel. I can get a criterion 18" 1-7 twist today, but I'd lose a lot of velocity from that. So - wait a few months for what I think is the right barrel, or get him shooting now. I'm thinking wait.

Am I thinking straight? Is this a good idea for a first f-class gun? I don't have enough money to buy an extra bolt gun in a larger caliber, and .308 and .223 are all I have in stock. What say the masses?

 

[silver-duck]

I shoot a savage .223 in F-class.[it even shoots good at 1000Y]I put a shilen 1/8 wilde, 26 varmit barrel on it and converted it to single load.
It shoots 77/80 well; I have done good shooting BH 77 reloads at some matchs.I would get a wilde barrel at least 20" min.

 

[ryanjay11]

You might consider selling that AR or trading it in on a 223 bolt gun with a 1/7 or 1/8 barrel. You are throwing money at something that will never work as well as a bolt gun, unless you sink a bunch of money into it.

 

[SPDSNYPR]

The problem is, who wants a post-ban 1-9 twist Armalite? And bolt guns generally don't come with an 8-twist barrel that I'm aware of, you you're still talking about replacing the barrel. I can replace an AR barrel in 30 mins. I have to pay a smith quite a bit of money to replace a rem 700 or similar barrel. So that idea is a non-starter. Unless you have a lead on a 1-8 twist or better bolt gun for cheap.

 

[XTR]

I don't have a fix it for an upcoming match solution.



What I did for giggles and a 600 yard gun was to buy on a Savage F class off of AccurateShooter.com for about $900 (I think there are two over there right now)

Pulled the 6.5-284 barrel and sold it for $135

You could get away with a 223 bolt head, but I bought a complete 223 bolt from Midway for about $120

I picked up a McGowan prefit in a 28" bull 1:7 for $315 (They show them out of stock right now but I only had to wait a few weeks for them to get them back in last time)

Got a hand throater from PT&G for $99 (handle included) and throated it out to seat the 80 Amax above the neck/shoulder junction.

Set of go/no-go guages $30 I think.

Then I went after the stock with a rasp and sander and shaped it (and took off weight, the barrel is heavy) more like a TR stock and not an Open stock and installed KMW adjustable cheek hardware $40

All totaled I've got a bit of time and ~$1400 in a really fun to shoot 18lb 223 that could actually be a switch barrel and also shoot 308 or any other round if I wanted. (I've got a spare Kreiger #14 blank in the garage I may eventually put on it for a back up 308, or one with a different chamber to my regular F-TR rifle)

edit:

There are also Savage FTR rifles out there in 223 that you could get into for about the same $$. I just looked on GB and there is one for sale with a buy it now of $1300 or so. I did what I did to get the flat bottom rear stock.

 

[SPDSNYPR]

I guess just loading 69gr bullets in it would be an option. Pull some bullet, pour the powder back in, and test it out to make sure it shot OK. Likely be a slower load, but good enough.

 

[silver-duck]

There are a few 1/9 barrels that shot can shot a 69 smk good enough.I have a Colt Match H bar that came with a 20" 1/8 bull and it is a 1/2 ' gun[made in 1998 or 9.]A 20" .223 Wylde chamber will work. {longer is better}

 

[RStewart]

The problem is, who wants a post-ban 1-9 twist Armalite? And bolt guns generally don't come with an 8-twist barrel that I'm aware of, you you're still talking about replacing the barrel. I can replace an AR barrel in 30 mins. I have to pay a smith quite a bit of money to replace a rem 700 or similar barrel. So that idea is a non-starter. Unless you have a lead on a 1-8 twist or better bolt gun for cheap.

In any type of decent wind a 69 grain bullet's consistent accuracy at 600 yards will be problematic. So knowing that ahead of time, if your son is just starting out and you just want to see if he will stick with it or not, shoot what you have.
If he decides he likes it, then I would seriously consider the upgrade to the faster twist White Oak in the 26" barrel to shoot the 80's. It will still lose something to the bolt rifles with their 1:7 or 1:6.5 twist and 30" barrels, but he can be competitive while he learns.
Then upgrade him to a bolt rifle.
Just my $.02.

 

[gstaylorg]

I agree with RStewart on the 69s at 600 yd. Any wind at all and you'll have a nice post-ban precision shotgun. If it were me, that alone wouldn't stop me but I'd be concerned about your son getting frustrated and losing interest if he is unable to do "reasonably" well. The 26" barrel with 80's sounds like a great plan for him to start with; ballistically it should only be a tick behind a .308 at 600 yd.

 

[SPDSNYPR]

I just wish I could get ahold of a decent barrel in a timely manner without stepping up to a Krieger. When is all the AR madness going to stop?

 

[Drifter™]

I just wish I could get ahold of a decent barrel in a timely manner without stepping up to a Krieger. When is all the AR madness going to stop?

There's a 26" Wilson stainless 8-twist AR-15 223 barrel with gas block, tube, & fitted bolt for $355 in stock on this link:

Products 6MM Rat ar 15 uppers 6MM Rat ar15 uppers

I've successfully bought a barrel from that gentlemen previously without issue.

 

[SPDSNYPR]

Thanks drifter. I'll give them a call in the AM.

 

[SPDSNYPR]

I ordered the above-listed barrel. Worth a shot for the money.

We went out and tried a few different bullets in the barrel it wears now. I was able to get sub-MOA groups (two, 5-shot groups were each right at 3/4" at 100) from the 77gr loads. Didn't try the 80 grain loads, but as-is, it seems to prefer the 77 over the 69. I think with the longer barrel if it shoots well, he should do as well as his skill level will allow, and hopefully will be able to shoot the 80grain pills.

 

[SPDSNYPR]

Figured I'd post an update. I bought the 26" Wilson barrel, and it arrived today. I swapped it out, and before I was able to make it out to the range, the sky opened up. This rain crap is getting old.

The barrel is very long, and I didn't realize the gas block was further forward (looks like about 2"). Now it looks funny with the 12" badger rail. The rifle now weighs 13.8lbs unloaded. The case I have for it doesn't fit now. Yippee.

Anyone using a 26" barrel, and if so, what sort of MV are you getting with 77 or 80 gr sierras? My chronograph suffered a gunshot wound several years ago when I loaned it to a friend, and I keep meaning to get another one.

 

[Denys]

My F-TR AR-15 has a 26 inch Krieger barrel. I push my 80gr JLKs at about 2800 or so.

 

[81STFACP]

Anyone using a 26" barrel, and if so, what sort of MV are you getting with 77 or 80 gr sierras? My chronograph suffered a gunshot wound several years ago when I loaned it to a friend, and I keep meaning to get another one.

My experience using the same ammo for my service rifle through the space gun, I get additional 100 FPS, or somewhere around there. There is not enough powder capacity out of the small case to expect a lot of gain.

Kudos to you for getting the young one involved.

 

[SPDSNYPR]

I very much enjoy taking him shooting. He beat me at a round of sporting clays this weekend. Hopefully, he'll catch the rifle shooting bug, and will kick my ass at that later on.

I got yelled at for putting it on the table.

 

[Denys]

I have quite a bit of experience shooting an AR-15 in F-TR all the way to 1000 yards. I don't know if you are interested in knowing about some of the tricks and tips I have for the AR, but anyway, here's a picture of it on the 600 yard lines some years back. I did achieve High Master at MR with this rifle.

 

[SPDSNYPR]

Any and all tips and tricks welcome. I am not super-dedicated to the sport per se, but I am a sniper for my department. Any and all trigger time is time well spent, and any tips and tricks that make me better are welcome. I have not shot much f-class, and just shot my first match in at least 5 years. I shoot more on steel than anything (earlier today I ran two different qual courses at my PD from 25 out to 600 for our snipers).

I can't learn too much. Everything someone teaches me is appreciated, and I will pass on what I can (if I understand it - I'm not as smart as many here).

 

[SPDSNYPR]

Add - on question: should I be looking at a different optic? Right now, it wears a Nikon Tactical 2.5-10 mil dot. The scope tracks well, is solid, and the optics are nice and clear. But the magnification range seems a little low for a dedicated target rifle.

Would a fixed power optic like a sightron 36x or weaver 24x be more appropriate for this type of rifle? I do not have and will not have money for a high-end scope anytime soon, so anything nightforce is out of the question.

I asked a similar question in the optics section, but got few responses.

BTW - the youngster practicing at 200:

 

[silver-duck]

A sightron FCH in 8/32 or 10/50 will work well.

 

[RStewart]

Add - on question: should I be looking at a different optic? Right now, it wears a Nikon Tactical 2.5-10 mil dot. The scope tracks well, is solid, and the optics are nice and clear. But the magnification range seems a little low for a dedicated target rifle.

Would a fixed power optic like a sightron 36x or weaver 24x be more appropriate for this type of rifle? I do not have and will not have money for a high-end scope anytime soon, so anything nightforce is out of the question.

I asked a similar question in the optics section, but got few responses.

If you plan to do precision (target) shooting out to distance, I would recommend getting more power.
A fixed 36x scope will handicap you when mirage picks up. You can't dial down, nor can you dial up with a fixed 24x if you need a little more on those clear days. I think the Sightron 10-50x60 is around $1000 or watch some forums. People sometimes put up NF 8-32's for about that.
I also know some use SWFA, but I have no experience with it one way or the other.

 

[Denys]

Any and all tips and tricks welcome. I am not super-dedicated to the sport per se, but I am a sniper for my department. Any and all trigger time is time well spent, and any tips and tricks that make me better are welcome. I have not shot much f-class, and just shot my first match in at least 5 years. I shoot more on steel than anything (earlier today I ran two different qual courses at my PD from 25 out to 600 for our snipers).

I can't learn too much. Everything someone teaches me is appreciated, and I will pass on what I can (if I understand it - I'm not as smart as many here).

I apologize for the delay in responding. I got caught up in the run-up to Raton and completely forgot about this thread.

The AR-15 is a great rifle to shoot prone, but I did a few things to it to make it even better, some of which you can see in the picture above and some are internal. The most visible thing is of course the use of the Magpul PRS stock. I like it very much and I use it with the buttplate extended; I'm 6'4'' and when prone the length of pull is magnified. The other thing I replaced was the pistol grip. It now wears a Tubb grip which is totally un-ambidextrous; You get right or left hand and go with it. It is extremely comfortable, especially for long sessions prone; the best grip for the AR even if it looks goody. I also installed a through-the-triggerguard bolt release so that I do not have to break position to release the bolt. Understanding that F-TR is all one round load, single fired, this bolt release mechanism comes in very handy. I load, aim and when ready to fire, I release the bolt with my trigger finger, take final aim and shoot. I also use a Bob Sled instead of a magazine, it's much easier to single load.

Internally I have replaced all the springs with Tubb's chrome-silicon spring offerings and the boing is much less or non-existent with the big CS buffer spring. I also use Tubb's CWS (carrier weight system) with the heavy carbide insert to slow down the unlocking of the bolt and carrier movement. My casings eject at 4 o'clock a few feet away. I can reload them as they are not beat up at all even though I am (or was) using max (or beyond) loads; 1000 yards is a long way for a .224 caliber bullet. The springs in the bolt are also all CS springs and you do not need the donut or D-thing under the extractor.

The original scope on the rifle was also a Nikon Tactical 2.5-10X44. Arguably the finest scope I have ever had, optics wise and that includes my Nightforce. However, I soon realized the magnification was grossly insufficient. I replaced it with another Nikon I had on hand, a 6.5-20X44 but it has a Mildot reticle which is useless for F-Class, in fact it's BAD for F-class as it obscures the rings. I finally put on a Weaver T-36 and played with that for a few years in F-TR. I recently retired that rifle from F-TR and put back the 6.5-20X so that I could play in any/any class with it. The tactical was transferred to a .308 for hunting; it's a phenomenal scope.