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NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

#51
Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

It would be hard to standardize the matches without standardizing the ranges. Considering almost every tactical range is completely different from the other, that might prove difficult.
 
#54
Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Having read back through the entire thread, I'll add this: Standardization is only necessary if one desires that shooters can compare scores across multiple events.

I can't think of any reason why that's desirable, and it brings a whole bunch of undesirable stuff with it, like lots and lots of rules and a lack of flexibility.

</div></div>

Once again, the Flanuer nails it.
 
#55
Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

This sport is growing organically by itself. I sometimes think its growing to fast.

As interest grows, local clubs will start incorporating more tactical style shooting. That's a good thing. The biggest problem with standardizing (aside from it getting stale) is that facilities of Rifles Only caliber are extremely rare. So, if you standardize to fit the smaller ranges, the Cup caliber matchs suffer.

Would I like to see matches of the Cups caliber closer to me? Hell yeah I would. But if they all fill up within 60 seconds and I am shooter number 101, it does me no good.

The matches that long-shot is talking about are a ton of fun, but nowhere near what a Rifles Only match is. The facility just can't support something like that.

I say leave it the way it is.
 
#56
Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Kraig claimed, "HP is loosing competitiors", not me. I'm just saying his reasoning makes no sense.</div></div>

Maybe not, I may be all wet, but how else do we explain the loss of competitors at Perry in HP and the growth of competitiors in the CMP Games.

-------------------------------------------------
As to standardation of COF. Is that really necessary. Lot at ICORE, there are pages and pages of differant courses of fire yet they still seem to keep stats. I'm not sure how it would work, maybe those of you who run the tactical matches can work out some sort of record keeping like ICORE.
 
#57
Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

Let's make something clear here Lindy that your post seems to at a minimum muddy up - for a club to be insured by the NRA, ALL EVENTS run at the club do not have to be sanctioned NRA events.

I am not advocating NRA sanctioning of events - I just won't sit by idly and let them be painted as an overall negative influence on organized and recreational shooting activities.

So what if RO gets its insurance elsewhere - it is a private, for profit entity, not some evolution of a local fish and game or Issac Walton League club. No-one I know of is advocating the NRA come in and take over at RO.

As far as NRA Highpower and numbers go, the sport is not seeing a lot of influx of younger and middle aged shooters. As those of us that are currently heavily into it age, we will suffer attrition if we do not attract new shooters to the sport. Most of us that are in the sport are a bit concerned about match turn out and not seeing new faces, so I think Kraig's comments are relevant and accurate. On the other hand, the CMP has come up with a formula of rules, equipment, disciplines, and accessibility that is generating growth in the CMP match participation, be it Junior Distinquished air rifle shooters or duffers and historic center fires.

From the club perspective where we have KD ranges in place today, it is a subject that often comes up at board meetings - "Gee we sure are seeing a lot of these guys show up with scoped heavy rifles that want something more to shoot at".

Directing and harnessing the energy around field precision rifles, done in some fashion that promotes participation and safety, would be good for the sport IMO. Does that mean bring in the NRA to run it? NO - but recognize the things they are a part of that makes shooting venues more accessible and affordable.
 
#59
Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

I think Vu's format is the best we will see with the XTC crowd.

I don;t know what the rest of the country's like, but here if you show up to shoot FTR the coat and sling crew gives you the cold shoulder and asks if you can even hit a target at 800 or 1000 yards, because "its very disruptive to have you guys cross fire on our targets".
At least here, the majority of accomplished HP shooters are arrogant pricks that do not want to be bothered with new guys. They warm up once you stick with it and they realize you are there to stay, but many shooters don't.

NRA Silhouette on the other hand I found to be a much more receptive and welcoming crowd of shooters.
 
#60
Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">but how else do we explain the loss of competitors at Perry in HP and the growth of competitiors in the CMP Games.</div></div>
How indeed. You might start with comments like the post above mine by sobrbiker883. We've had a number of threads with discussions like that here already, and I know you've been in some of them.
 
#61
Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
At least here, the majority of accomplished HP shooters are arrogant pricks that do not want to be bothered with new guys. They warm up once you stick with it and they realize you are there to stay, but many shooters don't.

NRA Silhouette on the other hand I found to be a much more receptive and welcoming crowd of shooters. </div></div>
I have noticed a few of the grumble bugs at my local match but it was not enough to turn me off to the game. Most of the guys were really great and helpful but it only takes a few sour apples to give some a belly ache. Personal time constraints made my HP experience short lived not the people.
Silhouette matches whether rifle or pistol, NRA or IHMSA as a rule have some of the friendliest most helpful folks you ever want to meet.
I don't mean to sling mud but the BR crowd is the worst of all in my experience, very cliqueish. I shot 1KBR for 2 years and never had more than 6 people out of 50 that would even talk to me. Different ranges and disciplines may vary.
I am willing to bet that tactical disciplines have a fair share of jackasses just like any other shooting sport.
As to the arms race, IHMSA has plenty of that even in the production categories. Great equipment will only go so far in the hands of a mediocre shooter. I have heard suggestions on IHMSA forums that the better shooters should stay out of the scoped classes and stick with iron sights, which I found very entertaining. No matter what rules there are, there will always be some that cry foul for some reason or other. Instead of looking in the mirror and improving themselves they will find a way to narrow the rules or a category so they can feel accomplishment in mediocrity.
NRA involvement may improve access for more shooters but at what cost.
 
#62
Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think Vu's format is the best we will see with the XTC crowd.

I don;t know what the rest of the country's like, but here if you show up to shoot FTR the coat and sling crew gives you the cold shoulder and asks if you can even hit a target at 800 or 1000 yards, because "its very disruptive to have you guys cross fire on our targets".
At least here, the majority of accomplished HP shooters are arrogant pricks that do not want to be bothered with new guys. They warm up once you stick with it and they realize you are there to stay, but many shooters don't.

NRA Silhouette on the other hand I found to be a much more receptive and welcoming crowd of shooters. </div></div>

LOL~! Yeah and then theres that mean grouchy old guy in the trailer at the XTC matches at Ben Avery,YIKES !!! I didn't know I had to preregister.Now I do ! It's kinda weird handing somebody money and getting cussed at the same time,LOL
crazy.gif
 
#63
Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I am willing to bet that tactical disciplines have a fair share of jackasses just like any other shooting sport.
</div></div>

See, that's just it...if there are any, I have not experienced it. Tactical shooters are welcoming and helpful to new shooters.

Maybe that has something to do with it. If I were to show up to a HP (or whatever) event and get treated like I did not desearve to be there, I would tell them to go fuck themselves and die a slow death (as a sport).
 
#64
Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve123</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think Vu's format is the best we will see with the XTC crowd.

I don;t know what the rest of the country's like, but here if you show up to shoot FTR the coat and sling crew gives you the cold shoulder and asks if you can even hit a target at 800 or 1000 yards, because "its very disruptive to have you guys cross fire on our targets".
At least here, the majority of accomplished HP shooters are arrogant pricks that do not want to be bothered with new guys. They warm up once you stick with it and they realize you are there to stay, but many shooters don't.

NRA Silhouette on the other hand I found to be a much more receptive and welcoming crowd of shooters. </div></div>

LOL~! Yeah and then theres that mean grouchy old guy in the trailer at the XTC matches at Ben Avery,YIKES !!! I didn't know I had to preregister.Now I do ! It's kinda weird handing somebody money and getting cussed at the same time,LOL
crazy.gif
</div></div>


Steve. It's their loss. It's funny how those guys think that they are the best shooters there is in the sport (May be, then again may be not). BTW, half of them, or may be more don't even shoot the kind of distance that we shoot. So, they can all fuck themselves. BTW, when are we getting together? Are you going to be at Gunsite in two weeks?
 
#65
Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

I see no reason how providing a little standardization of matches in an NRA event can have a significant negative impact on tactical shooting. This Vu-introduced class would not be a tactical match, rather it would be a rifle match. Said match could provide 1) a good introduction for beginners, 2)some significant precision shooting for experienced (the X-ring can be challenging to hit repeatedly), 3) long range shooting opportunities for those in areas where there are few/no tactical matches, and 4) good practice for all. Good constructive trigger time, working on fundamentals, and trying to read wind goes a long ways.

The NRA will not take over tactical shooting; the tactical community simply will not allow it.

Where I am, there are only two LR shoots a year (that I have found), but a HP practice weekly and match monthly for much of the year. I wish I could shoot my tact rifle that much.

There are a lot of grumpy people running and attending matches. In my experience, no group is without them. The best cure for warming some people is to put up a couple of good scores.

Garand/Vintage bolt matches are successful because the rules are simple and so is the equipment. If you can shoot, a $200 rifle can win a matches. Heck, I have the range record in two places with a $225 rifle, a stripper clip, and a PAST shoulder recoil pad.
 
#66
Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

If you want standardized rules, USPSA already has a head start on that. They started Manually Operated Rifle (MOR) competition a few years ago. That is now replaced by Precision Rifle.

Here's the current rule book. http://www.uspsa.org/rules/2009PrecisionRules2-5.pdf

While the rules aren't perfect, it is a start. It's a shame that it never took off.
 
#67
Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

Good point. I also came across that but I've never seen one executed.

Anybody every ran/shot one?

Attracting sponsorship is another possible benefit. USPSA doesn't roll off the tongue like NRA does, but it still has a lot of weight behind it.

FWIW, I have also had more than one extremely negative experience with NRAHP people.

--Fargo007
 
#68
Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DesertHK</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve123</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think Vu's format is the best we will see with the XTC crowd.

I don;t know what the rest of the country's like, but here if you show up to shoot FTR the coat and sling crew gives you the cold shoulder and asks if you can even hit a target at 800 or 1000 yards, because "its very disruptive to have you guys cross fire on our targets".
At least here, the majority of accomplished HP shooters are arrogant pricks that do not want to be bothered with new guys. They warm up once you stick with it and they realize you are there to stay, but many shooters don't.

NRA Silhouette on the other hand I found to be a much more receptive and welcoming crowd of shooters. </div></div>

LOL~! Yeah and then theres that mean grouchy old guy in the trailer at the XTC matches at Ben Avery,YIKES !!! I didn't know I had to preregister.Now I do ! It's kinda weird handing somebody money and getting cussed at the same time,LOL
crazy.gif
</div></div>


Steve. It's their loss. It's funny how those guys think that they are the best shooters there is in the sport (May be, then again may be not). BTW, half of them, or may be more don't even shoot the kind of distance that we shoot. So, they can all fuck themselves. BTW, when are we getting together? Are you going to be at Gunsite in two weeks? </div></div>

So I don't paint a completely negative picture of the F=class/HP/XTC shoots I went to at Ben Avery...I did meet some very cordial and helpful folks.It just wasn't my cup of tea as far as shooting matches go_Oh and the fact that I got stuck pulling targets next to 2 13 year old girls,For some reason they weren't into talking about guns???Imagine that,
grin.gif
LOL

DHK,

I'm planning on being at Gunsite.Hopefully we can get squadded together and catch up some.Talk JTG into coming.
 
#69
Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
sobrbiker883 said:
LOL~! Yeah and then theres that mean grouchy old guy in the trailer at the XTC matches at Ben Avery,YIKES !!! I didn't know I had to preregister.Now I do ! It's kinda weird handing somebody money and getting cussed at the same time,LOL
crazy.gif
</div></div>

HAH - that grouchy old guy in the trailer is Middleton Tompkins. And I am convinced the presence of grouchy old guys in the shooting sports is confined to Highpower.

Quite frankly, if this is the attitude about it, you are for sure better off somewhere else.

The shooting sports are their own worst enemies. We in-fight amongst ourselves within disciplines as well as between disciplines. This behavior is detrimental to ALL shooting sports, be they recreational, competitive, stand or lie in one place, or jump and run around.

To any of you that like to wave the "I didn't feel welcome" banner, I suggest you start running some local events of ANY kind. You do all the paperwork ahead of time. You advertise/market it. You take the phone calls. You go to the range in advance and make sure things are ready. You get there an hour earlier than everyone else in the wee hours of the AM. You deal with the horde of people that show up all at once and want to sign up. You deal with the late shows and no-shows. You do the match report. You submit the paperwork to the sanctioning body. You send the after action report and money to the host club. You go to the annual meeting to coordinate activities in the region. You go to the annual meeting for match directors at the hosting club(s).

You put your time and effort into running several seasons of something several times a year. After you have done that, you have the right to gripe about match personnel. Not until then.

Everybody has suggestions on how they would like to see things done, yet so few step up and actually DO something about it.
Click to expand...
 
#70
Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

Like stated so many times, standardizing every point would ruin the sport. It would be as exciting as watching paint dry.

We hosted the TSRA state matches at our facility for years. By the time we gave the TSRA their cut, the NRA another cut, bought targets prepped the range and mowed catered to every want and need we had nothing left to pay bills.

If the NRA wants to support this ever growing sport they should sponsor it with money and resources and stay out of the rules business. I don't need any managers, I need strong backs and support for the shooters who come to the matches. They are the reason this has taken off. The last "F"class match we did had 9 shooters, the last Team Sniper had 90.
 
#71
Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

I am going to look at it from a different angle.
This is something that is probably forgotten by all but a very few.

Serveral years ago we tried to get the NRA to allow suppressors to be utilized as acceptable under the NRA recognized F-Class rules.
After a lot of online discussion on the long range forum the chairman of the rules committee said (I paraphrase here)
Suppressors are NOT going to be allowed in NRA matches.
"There is not a specific rule against them but I can guarantee that the committee will make a binding rule interpretation that will keep them from being utilized".
I went ahead and collected a whole bunch or good reasons that suppressors should be allowed and submitted it to the rules committee in accordance with the snails pace demanded by the NRA rules committee.
Of course it was rejected out of hand about two years later.
I still have the short letter stating in absolute terms that suppressors are not acceptable under any NRA sanctioned matches and will not be in any forseeable future.

Understand very carefully that if you allow the NRA to put rules in place about "tactical" style matches you, as competitors, will not like the end result.
Not with regards to muzzle brakes or suppressors or "unacceptable" courses of fire or a great many other variables.
 
#73
Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

Go to the Longrange.com website and check back in the old threads to see the entire e-mail trail.
I posted the letter in there somewhere and locked the thread.
I dropped my membership on the website after that mess.

When the rules committee chairman interpreted the muzzle brake rule to include suppressors it brought on a great deal of heated disagreement so he changed his direction to make them against some other obscure rule that had nothing to do with the discussion at hand. He e-mailed me privately that suppressors would never be allowed in any NRA rules that he had any say in. Period.

The whole thing pissed me off so badly that I resigned my club officer post running the local High Power matches and haven't said a good word about the rules committee pricks since.
My firm belief after shooting in several years of F-class back when it first started up is that PALMA shooters are the a-holes of the shooting world and my brush with the rules committee made me decide tht they are fraternity brothers at heart.
 
#74
Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

I've held off commenting for a while now.

My kids think I'm old, and some of might agree. I'm going to blather on some background here because there is a point to be made.

I watched my Dad shoot NRA Bullseye Pistol from not long after I could walk and stick my fingers in my ears when the shooting started. He also did OTC back in the days of the 5-V target, and was one of the first users of the Sierra 168-gr Matchking (then called "International Match", if I remember those last boxes correctly). I bought the first few years of The American Handgunner from the local quicky-mart, and dreamed of starting a local club to do "practical" pistol shooting. Learned smallbore at local club before that, got decent, then shot some more of it while at BYU, and got into over the course HP about the same time.

THEN I started essentially "outlaw" pistol matches at a local club after I graduated. My approach was one par time stage on paper to measure precision (points = score), one steel/knockdown stage for speed (time = score), and one stage scored Comstock (both speed and score count). That later morphed from quarterly 3-gun to what I believe is now a thriving program. I'm in a different town now.

Variety in the course of fire seemed to be the key attraction for the shooters, and for me.

Along the way, I followed each year's Bianchi Cup from its inception to the NRA involvement, then to the stagnation into being the SAME BORING COURSE OF FIRE EVERY SINGLE YEAR! IIRC, one classification was won one year by a Japanese shooter who had dry fired that same stupid course of fire all the previous year, and who had only one or two hundred rounds downrange the week before firing started.

THEN there was the petition drive at about the 10- or 20-year mark from a bunch of sissy whiner competitors who wanted to enshrine a perfectly good 1970s course of fire into eternal, official, one and only, "Bianchi Cup" course of fire. Okay, no matter, USPSA is doing just fine even though their refusal to re-think a simple gun retention test for holsters LONG after it had deteriorated into some decidedly UN-practical and overpriced equipment.

Tactical shooting should NEVER, NEVER, NEVER follow the path of the Bianchi Cup. Never. Did I say NEVER??? I do see some room for USPSA-style "standard exercises" that maybe even be required to be included as ONE stage in every sanctioned match, but that should be only ONE standard exercise chosen from a stable of maybe 3 to 8 on "the list." AND "the list" should also rotate one stage OFF the list, replaced by another, every year.

That type of over-regulation I can stand. Keep a common thread of repeatability and comparability nationwide, without making it the be-all, end-all of the shooting discipline's existence. Scores on the standard exercises in general could be used for classification purposes, IF the audience wants to graft in the marksman/sharpshooter/expert/master (and maybe high master...) system into the sport. Did I say IF? I fear that NRA would mandate it regardless of the audience preferences.

Beyond that, most ranges should be able to accommodate semi-UKD courses of fire by placing the targets in between the firing lines and the butts, depending on terrain, of course. But KD "tactical" shooting still has a place of sorts.

I was disgusted with the NRA's choice to bow to a cult of personality and accommodate a single champion's physical decline by removing the "STAND" command from the sustained-fire stages of OTC Bullseye. Tactical has never in my very limited experience regularly included the reload portion of the skill set, but I'm all in favor of it--just maybe not limited to the 10-round string. Something like 4 from the mag followed by two or three more would be enough for those stages.

Minimal rules and quit the ban on brakes. We're big boys and part of the skill set from "rapid fire" is not flinching from the noise of the next shooter. Nothing wrong with stepping that challenge up a bit more...kinda like incoming mortars or something? BAN plywood under the bipods, though!

The NRA fixation on single loading cannot be part of it. Everything from the magazine. That's "tactical".

I could live with a generous maximum weight for the rifles, unloaded. Maybe not so generous to keep the bench guns from infiltrating...? Trigger pull? Safe operation, no jar-off. Period. Let us be adults, but inspect half the rifles in each match to discourage cheaters.

Targets with heads and head shots. Fine. The haters will hate regardless, so why try to appease them? IPSC tried their stupid headless target and I just don't see that having changed a thing. I fear the NRA would mandate circles and squares and triangles. Maybe I could tolerate that, but the idea galls me. I believe in rifle practice as an augmentation of national defense, making the skills behind those rifles "behind every blade of grass" as the highest skill levels in the world.

Minimal rules, a blend of short time limits (8 and 2 in 60 seconds from standing start to firing from sitting position is 20 seconds too long!) and one minute per shot for the rest of the stages, maybe ISU/UIT style 2 minutes for UKDs with non-LRF ranging needed and movers...

I would suggest each match have a multi-shot paper stage to avoid the USPSA style bottleneck of one shooter per range at a time problem. Kurt seems to do well with those at the LV matches, and a few more rounds downrange seems to help satisfy the competitors.

Minimal rules. Flexibility in courses of fire. No stagnation. Brakes and bipods and generally look for ways to ALLOW what people are buying and using instead of outlawing it.

Minimal rules. Safe rifle, safe caliber, safe ammo, safe trigger, wear your eye and hearing protection and don't piss and moan about the guy next to you hitting you with hot wind from a brake. It's a shooting sport, not badminton!

Be practical without taking the silly road of USPSA or the overly restrictive road of IDPA--those nuts don't recognize the legitimacy of NON-concealed carry or "drawing" from the nightstand or the occasional start from the pistol in hand.

I can guarantee you that anything that doesn't follow at least 80% of my suggestions will flounder or stagnate into a small-group exercise.
 
#75
Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

From the perspective on a person trying to put on a match there is one place where the NRA is actually a huge help.

Getting insurance to be able to cover the match personnel and the land owner is vital. Without the NRA helping in that area I know that some of the tactical matches would not have happened. The Oklahoma Tactical Shooters Association was set up and put on some matches this year that would have not happened without insurance.
 
#76
Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

Who gives a shit if there is a national standard to compare shooters?

If you want to know how you stack up against shooters in TX, go shoot a match in TX...or CA...or Ohio...or...

Being able to shoot differing COFs at different facilities is one of the things I enjoy aboit doing this.

I personally don't care about any national ranking system either, but to be fair, I would not be on it.
 
#77
Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gugubica</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Who gives a shit if there is a national standard to compare shooters?

If you want to know how you stack up against shooters in TX, go shoot a match in TX...or CA...or Ohio...or...

Being able to shoot differing COFs at different facilities is one of the things I enjoy aboit doing this.

I personally don't care about any national ranking system either, but to be fair, I would not be on it. </div></div>

Agreed. I get my ass kicked in Missouri and have a hell of a time doing it. I know the guys who beat me and I know the guys who beat them. It's a pretty small fraternity when you really break it down.
 
#79
Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

I say NO. Everyones gun is different and every range is different. Our matches are not about uniformity. I like my muzzle break on my rifles and I dont care if you have one or not. we still play together. The NRA is a great organization that I am a member of but I would like to keep their rules out of it. Just my 2 cents.
 
#80
Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

Shooting 20 rounds for record in 22 minutes with everything about the match the same from venue to venue is like being pecked to death by a duck.....
 
#81
Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shooting 20 rounds for record in 22 minutes with everything about the match the same from venue to venue is like being pecked to death by a duck..... </div></div>

or slowly killed by a spoon.....
 
#82
Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

Out of pure morbid curiousity, how many HP matches have you guys (sobrbiker and desertHK) shot? And no, not all HP shooters are snobbish old fart assholes....some are, but I suspect you will find folks like that in any discipline.

John
 
#83
Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mudcat-NC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Out of pure morbid curiousity, how many HP matches have you guys (sobrbiker and desertHK) shot? And no, not all HP shooters are snobbish old fart assholes....some are, but I suspect you will find folks like that in any discipline.

John
</div></div>


Quite true John. Please forgive the obvious generalization of all HP competitions and shooters. Of course, one tends to remember the bad experiences more so than the good ones. Yes, I have met and enjoyed great conversations with many HP shooters. However, you only need one bad experience to turn new shooters to the HP arena away.
 
#84
Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

Also, If you combine the lack of enthusiasm with stringent rules and regs, and folks that perceive new comers are infringing on their domain, then the new comers will seek different avenues. I don't discount the so called "badge of courage" and "I've earned it", but if they can lighten up a bit attitude wise, as well as rules and regs, then I am certain that more folks will join in. Just saying...
 
#85
Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

The "tactical" label is appealing, it's code for "sniper". Some folks think, from what they've been convinced of by marketers, with the right equipment, they can become their own fantasy. That's O.K., "tactical" for these folks is just a distraction, a hobby interest. The NRA getting into "tactical" is smart, they know there's a shooting sports market there, and they'd be amiss not to mine it.

NRA governed HP and LR could be about tactical, as they're venues which inspire development of extraordinary marksmanship skills. These skills are at home on the range, as well as the battlefield.

I know there are many folks who want to become extraordinary marksmen, but have no interest in the sort of work it requires to get there. Once these folks experience the pain associated with HP or LR development, they drop out, blaming it all on anything and everything other than the real reason for choosing to quit. These folks do not understand that a quitter never wins and a winner never quits. For accolades, distinctions, recognition, certifications, and other rewards of being a good shot there's some work that needs to be done.

 
#86
Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The "tactical" label is appealing, it's code for "sniper". Some folks think, from what they've been convinced of by marketers, with the right equipment, they can become their own fantasy. That's O.K., "tactical" for these folks is just a distraction, a hobby interest. The NRA getting into "tactical" is smart, they know there's a shooting sports market there, and they'd be amiss not to mine it.

NRA governed HP and LR could be about tactical, as they're venues which inspire development of extraordinary marksmanship skills. These skills are at home on the range, as well as the battlefield.

I know there are many folks who want to become extraordinary marksmen, but have no interest in the sort of work it requires to get there. Once these folks experience the pain associated with HP or LR development, they drop out, blaming it all on anything and everything other than the real reason for choosing to quit. These folks do not understand that a quitter never wins and a winner never quits. For accolades, distinctions, recognition, certifications, and other rewards of being a good shot there's some work that needs to be done.</div></div>
Once again you slam everyone who doesn't shoot NRA HP LR. Classy.

Sterling Shooter, why are you even on SnipersHide? You clearly have contempt for anyone who doesn't shoot NRA HP, and the majority of people here don't.
 
#87
Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

The majority of people who shoot don't shoot competitively, nor at true long range (anything past 600 yards). If they do they shoot sporadically.

My experience with NRA is if they think it'll make a profit they want a part of it. The NRA has gone from a body promoting competency with firearms to an organization whose overwhelming efforts are to lobbying.

"Tactical" and "Sniper" competition tends to focus on shooting first (tiny benchrest-style groups, trying to hit a target paster, and unknown distance field fire), movement (perhaps with minimal loads with finite set times bound by a weekend) second, and usually does nothing to develop and harden mindset.

Pooh-poohing NRA highpower rifle marksmanship competition and skill development is counter-productive. Think of gymnastics -- you have objective compulsories before freestyle. 7.62 military issue guns and NRA prone long-range (and possibly F-TR) are the current "Compulsory" yardstick. "Open" class (any other weapon and glass, any other caliber) is unfettered.

Current competition is good but still elementary and limited by ranges and facilities. Few have night non-illuminated shoots or moving target stages. Helo stages are novel, fun, and visually appealing -- but no one is shooting at the helicopter. It can be better and tougher, but you would get a whole lot less competitors if every meet was a gut-check.

On the other hand, many people quit when it's no longer easy.

Past Champion of the Wimbledon Cup at Camp Perry (surely not just a belly-gunner. The second photo was taken at Camp Perry 26 August 1965, the week after Hathcock went Distinguished with the service rifle):

carlos-hathcock-marine-sniper-21249570.jpg

2ajyhap.jpg


As for NRA long range shooters and F-TR guys, many newbs tend to show up at matches trying out their rifle combinations for the first time, cold and with no idea what their zeroes are nor where their ammo will shoot -- which tends to slow down match execution. They then grouse the NRA guys are screwing them, while they have no motivation nor gumption to reserve ranges for their own prior practice and basic data collection.

Most of those type of guys aren't going to spend money to travel, get a hotel room, and enter a match.
 
#89
Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

Man, look at you guys getting scrappy over HP...

The issue with HP and the compulsory aspect of it, is in fact the use of iron sights...

Once you add optics you are at F Class where "open" is the norm... not to mention a high dollar equipment race.

Since you brought up the Helo stage as "novel", which it is, it's definitely about the experience, because many will never get the opportunity to shoot from one, but still there is a skill involved.

As far as our matches, we don't shoot groups, we do shoot at night and we have an Action target mover that is shot in not only the rifle stages, but the hand gun stages. So, I think experiencing one before slagging it might be similar to much of the argument around the HP experience.

I have done the gut checks... they make the matches more about the field than about shooting. That 44 hour match that was done, I shot 11 rounds and did more points of land nav than shooting. Hurray for me, I can find a stick in the ground using a map and compass.

True there is only so much you can do in a tactical competition, you can't shoot at someone, although I think Tiger Valley has a paintball set up. So you work within the limitations of the range, as well as the competitors. Even when explained that there will be a physical factor people will show up with bum knees, backs, etc, because they simply want to participate in the activity. We try to get them off their bellies and move them around because time creates stress which is what you are trying to recreate.

The way I see, the HP guys only want to talk HP and reduce everyone to shooting iron sights and frankly coming around full circle to F Class... In the case of the tactical matches, where you do have to manage more aspects of the match, well rounded competitors can beat a better shot, as we have seen at our matches.

Is there a novelty aspect to it, of course. Remember Carlos was a competitor first and Marine Sniper second... I have actually met the guy, and he acknowledged the benefit of progress... something the HP shooters seem to miss the mark on.
 
#90
Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

Man, lot of subjects here that from my point of view are different.
First, to answer the original question NO NO NO the NRA needs to stay away from tactical. The fact that it is different at every match is the draw.
Second,NRA long range is a lot of fun and can help you to learn a lot about calling wind, shooting marage, etc. Shooting with an immediate feedback on your shots at 1000yds is worth the the minimal cost of entry fee's. But Im not competing to win because my rifle is tactical I dont have a rear rest and i shoot off a bipod. i am also because of NRA stupid rules am in the Open class because 260 doesnt fit the narrow description that NRA puts on the TR class. but thats ok because I am there to have fun and by the way there are a lot of great guys there at the matches that go out of their way to help you figure things out when you start.
Third, I heard what sounded like complaints that the NRA was too much into lobbying......the job of the NRA is precisely to lobby all all the other things that happen in washington because that is the game that is going on daily from the other side that wants to take your rights and freedoms. Like it or not it is necessary and we need to be thankful there is an organization that is willing to do it. unless you want to be like Australia et. al.
 
#91
Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

I firmly believe that any day you can drop a hammer on a live round is a good day of training, regardless the venue or weapon.

The guy who shoots and is intimately familiar with his weapon (irons, glass, no matter -- and the Wimbledon is shot with a scope, by the way) is going to beat a novice with the newest and most expensive gear, regardless if he's fresh off a shot of leg last night from the old lady or whether he's on a mission, tired, hungry, and bleeding.

A seasoned, professional Soldier or cop is going to go a lot further than a hobbyist. He knows the risks and consequences.

 
#94
Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

I will also add... that not understanding what is being done by guys like Zak Smith and the CO Multi-gun crowd is highly underrated.

They shoot small targets, on demand with no second chance, under extremely tough conditions with time constraints. They are out there every month putting rounds downrange and not simply talking about it.

Other organizations would be wise to follow their lead locally, for they are some outstanding field shooters... ask David Tubb, I believe he came in second place to these guys during one of their sporting rifle matches. I know when I shot it, getting a 56 out of 60 hits I felt pretty good only to come in second place. That has to tell you something that from 200 to 875 yards dropping only 4 points won't win you the match. And they engage in more than type of this match utilizing the ranges locally available. Even the Prairie dog match at Pueblo is challenging and only takes place inside 425 yards which is available.

I would like to see Sterling shoot it, no ranging necessary they provide the range, and prone doesn't always get it done. But you have a very limited amount of time to engage 6 -1 MOA or smaller sized targets all at different ranges per station. It's far from a novel competition and in my opinion has excellent real world value to that the hardened warrior can exploit. It differs from other field matches like seen back East because they are not working crew served, its all on the individual.
 
#95
Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sinister</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I firmly believe that any day you can drop a hammer on a live round is a good day of training, regardless the venue or weapon.

<span style="font-weight: bold">The guy who shoots and is intimately familiar with his weapon (irons, glass, no matter -- and the Wimbledon is shot with a scope, by the way) is going to beat a novice with the newest and most expensive gear, regardless if he's fresh off a shot of leg last night from the old lady or whether he's on a mission, tired, hungry, and bleeding.</span>

A seasoned, professional Soldier or cop is going to go a lot further than a hobbyist. He knows the risks and consequences.

</div></div>

You are correct, a novice is never going to beat an experienced shooter in that way, however once you have some experience there is not way you can progress in something like F Class or anything else without a heavy investment in what the top guys are shooting. They are not using a basic set up, because they understand they need the best barrel they can buy, they need a high end scope, and the better rests. So, even an experienced shooter is not going to win if he shows up with a Remington 5R against the guys with a $5000 race gun of equal experience.

As well Police and Military guys never do as well as the civilian shooters, I have yet to see it... and we have police and military shooters in the field. The Hobbyist only has to focus on shooting, the police and military guys have other concerns, as well they aren't running the big dollar rigs.

They may understand the liabilities and limits, but they not nearly as focused, there is a reason they call it <span style="font-style: italic">"close enough for government work"</span>... that seems to apply in my experience.

But I will agree, any time you pull the trigger a valuable lessons can be learned by anyone.
 
#96
Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

Frank,
How many car lengths do you have to hold to hit the trunk hooker?
Does it matter if it is a sub-compact or a SUV on the holds?
How much further does a midget have to hold versus a six footer?
Does the equipment matter here?

You reckon the NRA would get into trunk hooker matches?

jk...
 
#97
Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jhuskey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Frank,
How many car lengths do you have to hold to hit the trunk hooker?
Does it matter if it is a sub-compact or a SUV on the holds?
How much further does a midget have to hold versus a six footer?
Does the equipment matter here?

You reckon the NRA would get into trunk hooker matches?

jk... </div></div>

Way to add to the discussion there JW...

I didn't think i was being hostile or combative, but apparently I continue to hit nerves.

I might suggest moving from a liquid lunch to a deli sandwich.
 
#98
Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...what is being done by guys like Zak Smith and the CO Multi-gun crowd is highly underrated.</div></div>

Obviously I need to take my AI with me to Colorado next summer. That sounds like a heap of fun!
 
#99
Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

Frank, my intention was and is not to knock anyone's matches, venues, skills, or experience. I've met Zak and Ray and I intend to do business with them regardless whether or not my company does or not.

I am saying, as with pistol shooting, Cooper's triad of gunfighting seems to fit -- you have to develop all three to be balanced.

1. Basic shooting and gunhandling skills.
2. Sound, effective tactical application on demand.
3. The willingness to execute the first two regardless of conditions, fatigue, and adversity.

Few places and competitions develop all three, and I seriously doubt (I've been wrong MANY times) the NRA will even try to address the last.

You have a mastery of the triad -- but I'm not sure many of your (or my) customers are at that stage (yet). You know them as soon as you get them on the range and in the field.

KD shooting seems at least to give shooters the ability to read wind, know their arms and equipment on the range, and build basic data.
 
#100
Re: NRA involvment in Tactical Rifle competition

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">has excellent real world value to that the hardened warrior can exploit. </div></div>
One of the military guys who shoots with us (who has has been to Afghanistan to shoot bad people "on the job" in the last couple years) told me that shooting at the Steel Safari site was better long-range "training" than he ever got in the military. I don't call it training, but that he would put it that say speaks volumes to the value of practical field shooting put on by civilians with more or less pedestrian day jobs.
 
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