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NSW Recce build
- Thread starter Ghostman_981
- Start date
Looks like you’re off to a great start. Have you used a stainless barreled AR before? I’ve had serious extraction problems from CLE Bartlein barrels (CLE and Wilde chamber). I couldn’t resolve them and moved away from stainless.
Yes sir just not a cle so we will see how it goes fingers crossed it will be like my others!
Interesting. First I've heard of stainless barrels being prone to this.
I have a CLE Bartlein Wylde on my recce that I use for SPR/DMR comps and some 2-gun comps... Never a hiccup.
Is this a known thing I'm just not aware of?
I've run Mk262, Black Hills 77gr OTM, IMI Razor Core, and a bunch of other types of ammo through multiple stainless barrels from WOA, Rainier Arms, and Seekins in matches and for recreational shooting and have never run into the issues being described with regards to extraction.
It's these cans - stay away from the cans!!!!
Never had an issue related to stainless barrels and extraction, and I've worn out a half dozen of them. I have, however, had to hand ream a few CLE chambers with a Wylde reamer to get the rifle to function. Frank is a good guy and helped write the book on accurate ARs, but there is/was something going on there for a while with his chambers.
Oh and my RECCE with a WOA stainless barrel functions flawlessly.
Never had an issue related to stainless barrels and extraction, and I've worn out a half dozen of them. I have, however, had to hand ream a few CLE chambers with a Wylde reamer to get the rifle to function. Frank is a good guy and helped write the book on accurate ARs, but there is/was something going on there for a while with his chambers.
Oh and my RECCE with a WOA stainless barrel functions flawlessly.
Yep, torn rims. Also, fire ten rounds. Then, a day later try to pull charging handle... with LOTS of effort it pulls and removes the unfired case but the bullet is stuck in the barrel (powder everywhere). Popped primers.
As NineHotel has just attested, this is not “fake news”, lol.
As NineHotel has just attested, this is not “fake news”, lol.
Hi,
Sincerely,
Theis
Hi,
That is not what he said at all, lolol...
He specifically said it was a reamer/chamber issue with ZERO to do with barrel being Stainless, lol
Sincerely,
Theis
It’s been many years now, but I built at least one SPR with a CLE pipe and have not seen these extraction issues.
Sometimes what this all comes down to is reamer life and if a shop let some pipes or rifles out when a reamer was being run ragged past its time for replacement/servicing.
A new reamer will cut more generous chambers, and a reamer that has cut hundreds of barrels will be more towards the SAAMI minimum or worse with companies who let QC slide a bit due a volume based business model.
CLE isn’t one of those companies, so I could see either a specific match chamber or certain windows where reamer life might have played a role. Sourcing quality reamers made to-spec in a timely fashion has always been a bottleneck for barrel-makers/rifle-builders even before Wuhan Kung-flu.
There is no relation to the barrel material type and extraction, whether it be stainless or CMV steel, but the chamber dimensions and chamber surface finish. Another major factor in reliable extraction is the way the gas system is set-up.
A snug gas system with the correct gas port diameter fed a specific ammo type will run very well.
A loose system (gaps in the critical carrier bore IDs, carrier key/gas tube interface, gas block/journal) gassed hard with a larger port will be erratic and not run as long, since it doesn’t meet the TDP call-outs.
A non-ideal gas system configuration with after-market parts that don’t adhere to the known formula for reliability with a tight chamber will be prone to extraction issues.
Sometimes what this all comes down to is reamer life and if a shop let some pipes or rifles out when a reamer was being run ragged past its time for replacement/servicing.
A new reamer will cut more generous chambers, and a reamer that has cut hundreds of barrels will be more towards the SAAMI minimum or worse with companies who let QC slide a bit due a volume based business model.
CLE isn’t one of those companies, so I could see either a specific match chamber or certain windows where reamer life might have played a role. Sourcing quality reamers made to-spec in a timely fashion has always been a bottleneck for barrel-makers/rifle-builders even before Wuhan Kung-flu.
There is no relation to the barrel material type and extraction, whether it be stainless or CMV steel, but the chamber dimensions and chamber surface finish. Another major factor in reliable extraction is the way the gas system is set-up.
A snug gas system with the correct gas port diameter fed a specific ammo type will run very well.
A loose system (gaps in the critical carrier bore IDs, carrier key/gas tube interface, gas block/journal) gassed hard with a larger port will be erratic and not run as long, since it doesn’t meet the TDP call-outs.
A non-ideal gas system configuration with after-market parts that don’t adhere to the known formula for reliability with a tight chamber will be prone to extraction issues.
Yes, gas system is important, but in the above mentioned cases it wasn’t the issue.
Strangely, when I called Frank he wasn’t surprised and referred me to the cleaning instructions on his website. He said I’d need to clean every couple hundred rounds.
Doing so helped some but didn’t eliminate the failures and besides, I’m not interested in owning any gun that won’t function for 1000 rounds without cleaning.
So CLE wasn’t surprised by these failures
Perhaps I should try a different smith.
Strangely, when I called Frank he wasn’t surprised and referred me to the cleaning instructions on his website. He said I’d need to clean every couple hundred rounds.
Doing so helped some but didn’t eliminate the failures and besides, I’m not interested in owning any gun that won’t function for 1000 rounds without cleaning.
So CLE wasn’t surprised by these failures
Perhaps I should try a different smith.
When the gas system is out of whack, it is often a timing issue.
Case obturation needs to subside before you start initiating primary extraction.
It’s really hard on bolts and extractors too since they are only able to withstand a certain amount of repeated torsional load in the rotational axis.
Especially when you suppress, it spikes the cyclic rate much higher on most configurations. It’s like adding more barrel length to a short gas system, even MLGS. MLGS does really well with certain barrel lengths and port diameters when fed a standard ammo.
That was always the problem with CLGS suppressed with high efficiency cans.
Absolutely a possibility on some builds. Not the issue here. There are several ways to verify that (and I did).
What would be the order of importance in the trouble shooting process.
Some guys buy everything they see all at once and put them selves into adjustment hell.
I like the price point approach due to the poors virus I was born with.
Some guys buy everything they see all at once and put them selves into adjustment hell.
I like the price point approach due to the poors virus I was born with.
Do your research first and buy all parts that integrate well together to achieve the intended purpose of the gun. Gas system length, gas port size, bolt carrier group design, spring and buffer system, etc., can all be researched ahead of time.
When doing that, I’ve never had a gun that didn’t run exactly as intended... with the exception of those CLE barrels.
Usually you can avoid problems up front by purchasing only quality parts from quality companies, but occasionally everyone slips up. Heck, I just had to return a brand new ATACR for absolutely atrocious quality control. I wasn’t happy, but it happens even to good companies.
If things do go wrong, those with an intimate knowledge of the system can often tell right away what’s going wrong. If not, form a hypothesis and test it till you find the issue.
When doing that, I’ve never had a gun that didn’t run exactly as intended... with the exception of those CLE barrels.
Usually you can avoid problems up front by purchasing only quality parts from quality companies, but occasionally everyone slips up. Heck, I just had to return a brand new ATACR for absolutely atrocious quality control. I wasn’t happy, but it happens even to good companies.
If things do go wrong, those with an intimate knowledge of the system can often tell right away what’s going wrong. If not, form a hypothesis and test it till you find the issue.
CLE is a stand up company. Regardless of how it was sold, You clearly did not get a properWylde chamber if you had a bullet stick in that chamber. Black hills 262 is crimped, so that bullet didn’t slide forward. Without seeing it I assume it was short chambered a little. Enough to chamber a round but you had no lead for 77s. Otherwise, it may have been a varmint reamer, etc. Simple fix for a smith but I know it had to be frustrating for you.
You had to know you were going to get a little beat up over this. Don’t sweat the small shit. My guy cut me a barrel that had a crescent shape eclusion open up in the chamber after 300 rounds. Rifle functioned fine but the brass looked fucked up when it landed. A quick chase and polish and it was good as new, though slightly oversized. No matter how good a smith is, every once in a while some things makes it out that maybe shouldn’t have.
You had to know you were going to get a little beat up over this. Don’t sweat the small shit. My guy cut me a barrel that had a crescent shape eclusion open up in the chamber after 300 rounds. Rifle functioned fine but the brass looked fucked up when it landed. A quick chase and polish and it was good as new, though slightly oversized. No matter how good a smith is, every once in a while some things makes it out that maybe shouldn’t have.
I buy all my AR15 Barrels exclusively from CLE, 17 barrels to date and I have never have any of these issues mentioned above. The only issue I have ever had with a CLE barrel was with a 18" Bartlein that just didn't perform, I called frank up and after a 10 minute conversation I had a new barrel on the way 3 weeks later at no charge to me.
"IF" these extraction issues really existed Frank would have had you send the Barrel in and inspected the chamber, and probably sent you a new barrel for your troubles.
So yeah I call bullshit!!
"IF" these extraction issues really existed Frank would have had you send the Barrel in and inspected the chamber, and probably sent you a new barrel for your troubles.
So yeah I call bullshit!!
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. ...Fucking Joke
Big Jake.
My word has been tried, and proven in more ways than most will ever experience. You are free to believe or disbelieve whatever you like, but your disbelief won’t make it any less true.
And perhaps you failed to notice it, but another poster had a batch of chamber problems from him as well. Is he making that up as well?
Regarding 1000 round reliability without cleaning, no. It’s not a joke. And all my current guns can perform that easily.
I respect your AR knowledge and have benefited from your posts, but the guns I build are for real life. I have actually had to rely on them to save my life and the life of others. When that moment comes, you’ll be glad you didn’t settle for a gun that has ANY reliability concerns.
Google “filthy 14”. Pat Rogers went WELL beyond 1000 rounds without cleaning (20something thousand). It’s not a difficult or unreasonable standard. If it is for the ARs you build...
My word has been tried, and proven in more ways than most will ever experience. You are free to believe or disbelieve whatever you like, but your disbelief won’t make it any less true.
And perhaps you failed to notice it, but another poster had a batch of chamber problems from him as well. Is he making that up as well?
Regarding 1000 round reliability without cleaning, no. It’s not a joke. And all my current guns can perform that easily.
I respect your AR knowledge and have benefited from your posts, but the guns I build are for real life. I have actually had to rely on them to save my life and the life of others. When that moment comes, you’ll be glad you didn’t settle for a gun that has ANY reliability concerns.
Google “filthy 14”. Pat Rogers went WELL beyond 1000 rounds without cleaning (20something thousand). It’s not a difficult or unreasonable standard. If it is for the ARs you build...
No dog in this scrap, not a big brand name fan boy.
I have shot past 1000 rounds just to apease my sons that said I cleaned my ar too often.
Shot it all summer. Sometimes suppressed.
Then decided to take it hunting since it was all dialed in. First frozen morning all that crap congealed and wouldn't chamber a round.
A quick wipe out with t-shirt and lighter fluid gtg for the one shot I needed.
If you keep shooting every day, yes if you put it away for a month maybe not.
Why don't you set up a video and burn through 10,000 dollars worth of ammo to prove a point while we watch and laugh.
I have shot past 1000 rounds just to apease my sons that said I cleaned my ar too often.
Shot it all summer. Sometimes suppressed.
Then decided to take it hunting since it was all dialed in. First frozen morning all that crap congealed and wouldn't chamber a round.
A quick wipe out with t-shirt and lighter fluid gtg for the one shot I needed.
If you keep shooting every day, yes if you put it away for a month maybe not.
Why don't you set up a video and burn through 10,000 dollars worth of ammo to prove a point while we watch and laugh.
Because others have done it for us 
I’ve got a couple hundred thousand rounds under my belt but most of that wasn’t filmed
Lube is generally considered important to ongoing use of ARs. Not sure what your lubricant schedule was but that may have been a factor.
I’ve got a couple hundred thousand rounds under my belt but most of that wasn’t filmed
Lube is generally considered important to ongoing use of ARs. Not sure what your lubricant schedule was but that may have been a factor.
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No cleaning or lube.
Your rifle.
My standard budget build pos went 1000 + ( nearly exactly 1200) not touched till it sat for about a month then got cold. If I started earlier in the summer I figure it could have done more.
Filthy accuracy was about 1 1/2 moa. One day it got so dirty I had to stop and clean the scope to see since some of the glop got on it shooting suppressed.
If not ran suppressed might not have been same result. Even fwd assist would not get a round to chamber.
I would suggest doing the test on a one way range.
I think all the glop is lube till it gets cold. Lol
Your rifle.
My standard budget build pos went 1000 + ( nearly exactly 1200) not touched till it sat for about a month then got cold. If I started earlier in the summer I figure it could have done more.
Filthy accuracy was about 1 1/2 moa. One day it got so dirty I had to stop and clean the scope to see since some of the glop got on it shooting suppressed.
If not ran suppressed might not have been same result. Even fwd assist would not get a round to chamber.
I would suggest doing the test on a one way range.
I think all the glop is lube till it gets cold. Lol
Big Jake.
My word has been tried, and proven in more ways than most will ever experience. You are free to believe or disbelieve whatever you like, but your disbelief won’t make it any less true.
And perhaps you failed to notice it, but another poster had a batch of chamber problems from him as well. Is he making that up as well?
Regarding 1000 round reliability without cleaning, no. It’s not a joke. And all my current guns can perform that easily.
I respect your AR knowledge and have benefited from your posts, but the guns I build are for real life. I have actually had to rely on them to save my life and the life of others. When that moment comes, you’ll be glad you didn’t settle for a gun that has ANY reliability concerns.
Google “filthy 14”. Pat Rogers went WELL beyond 1000 rounds without cleaning (20something thousand). It’s not a difficult or unreasonable standard. If it is for the ARs you build...
Then why didn't you pull the barrel and have Frank correct the issue?
No one is unfallable everybody makes mistakes, and the compass lake family knows this. That is the whole reason why I am such a committed supporter to their products because they are a family and they take care of their customers.
Oh and sorry for the dick-headed reply I was a wee bit inebriated last night.
On another note one thing I will say is that if you were looking for a rifle to perform night and day im various conditions for 1,000 rounds I wouldn't select a barrel from a company that specializes in match precision style barrels they're tolerances are way tighter then most and they're going to fail under those harsh conditions.
That has always been the trade-off in the AR world if you want a Precision oriented rifle you are going to lose some of that reliability, and if you want a rifle that performs under any and all conditions you're going to lose some of the accuracy.
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Thanks, and all good!
I called him about it and his response was that I had to clean it every couple hundred rounds. I suggested opening up the CLE chamber to Wilde specs. He was willing to do it but told me I’d have the same problem.
my next barrel from him had a Wilde chamber... same exact problem.
So if we’re going with the worn out reamer theory offered by someone above, that’s two worn reamers, 2 years apart. Certainly possible but seems unlikely. These problems manifested within the first 200 rounds on each barrel.
I was hoping I could have serious accuracy and also perfect reliability. I believe others have achieved this so I’m hopeful...
I will say the one with the CLE match chamber was insanely accurate!
Im currently running a Criterion chrome lined barrel that will put 10 under an inch at 100 yards. I’m always striving for better but that’s really respectable.
I called him about it and his response was that I had to clean it every couple hundred rounds. I suggested opening up the CLE chamber to Wilde specs. He was willing to do it but told me I’d have the same problem.
my next barrel from him had a Wilde chamber... same exact problem.
So if we’re going with the worn out reamer theory offered by someone above, that’s two worn reamers, 2 years apart. Certainly possible but seems unlikely. These problems manifested within the first 200 rounds on each barrel.
I was hoping I could have serious accuracy and also perfect reliability. I believe others have achieved this so I’m hopeful...
I will say the one with the CLE match chamber was insanely accurate!
Im currently running a Criterion chrome lined barrel that will put 10 under an inch at 100 yards. I’m always striving for better but that’s really respectable.
I had just finished load development on my Compass Lake .308 Bartlein Barrel for the 175 SMKs, so I decided yesterday I would start on the 168's.
I did six different loads 42.0grs--43.0grs and not one shot over .75 MOA
I had a couple flyers but shit happens.
In the below picture you will also see that there are two different rifles that I checked zero or tested to see how they shot without a muzzle brake the 223 is also a Compass Lake Barrel. The 6.5 CM is from Craddock.
I did six different loads 42.0grs--43.0grs and not one shot over .75 MOA
I had a couple flyers but shit happens.
In the below picture you will also see that there are two different rifles that I checked zero or tested to see how they shot without a muzzle brake the 223 is also a Compass Lake Barrel. The 6.5 CM is from Craddock.
The only Barrel that I have ever owned that can have that standard of reliability and maintain sub MOA accuracy has been from KAC. But yet again I never ran 1,000 rounds and then shot a 6x5, but if there was ever a weapons platform that I believed would perform to that level it would be a KAC
Standard KAC or their precision one? My standard one was ok but nothing great in the accuracy department.
Its just the standard SR15 with the 16" Barrel. It's been a few years since I've taken this photo but I believe those are two 10 shot groups one on top of the other.
No issues as of yet with any of them. One has close to 2k rounds so far.
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