Night Vision NV used by non citizens

[remington patriot]

Is there a law prohibiting non citizens to handle or look through U.S. night vision and FLIR devices? If so can someone please direct me to a US code or an explanation of the law/rule? Thanks in advance.

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

Yes, it's prohibited under ITAR (International Traffic in Arms Regulations) depending on the type of system. TNVC covers it in their FAQ.

"On the same note, it is a violation of ITAR to allow any non-U.S. citizen to look through U.S. Gen3 night vision equipment (even on US Soil). They are also not allowed to have access to any operator’s manuals or documentation, whatsoever, pertaining to US Gen 3 Night Vision Devices. This is a little-known fact about ITAR and Night Vision Devices, but it is true. We have confirmed this with the US State Department and major Night Vision Manufacturers. At TNVC, we take great care to ensure our clients are properly informed on laws and regulations pertaining to night vision. "

 

[wigwamitus]

Yup ITAR is where you want to start looking ...

Cat. 12 cover NV/thermal ...

Category XII—Fire Control, Laser, Imaging, and Guidance Equipment

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/retrie...847fa696c47e3140a&mc=true&r=PART&n=pt22.1.121

Be aware this is an "immense muddy swamp" and there are people that make a living helping others sort out what they have to do to stay legal ... usually to ship items overseas.

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

Actually no. this Is not true. If you are a permanent resident ( aka green card holder) you may possess own and use nods and thermal.

ITAR is pretty specific on most items that you must be a US citizen or have an exemption from the State Department. Based on TNVC's post (which matches my previous understanding) anything Gen3 or 4 is only usable by US citizens.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Do these same rules apply to battlefield pickup's?

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

I own NV and thermal. I’m Canadian / Brazilian and have a Greencard, But I don’t take it out of the country nor do I ever intend to.

If you're buying anything that qualifies as Gen 1 or 2, then ITAR doesn't apply - at least that's my understanding. No idea on thermal - I assume anything ITAR controlled is too damn expensive for your average joe to buy.

 

[wigwamitus]

All these "categories" come up under a VERY large/long list of what's called "Significant Military Equipment" ... SME ... it includes missiles, tanks, ships, everything ...

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

All these "categories" come up under a VERY large/long list of what's called "Significant Military Equipment" ... SME ... it includes missiles, tanks, ships, everything ...

Yep. I'm a big spaceflight nerd, and even commercial rockets have ITAR-controlled tech on board due to how close a commercial launch vehicle is to a functional ICBM. If you look at jobs at SpaceX, you will see a lot of them require US citizenship.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

I deal with ITAR on a daily basis. Is there anything specific other than what has been listed on TNVC FAQ page that you are trying to find out?

Isn't it ironic that non USA citizens can't even look through Gen 3 and better but YET just look at how many non USA citizens attend SHOT Show....

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

That’s the thing buddy, it’s your understanding of the law. Not the law. But I’m not gonna sit here and argue with someone over the internet. To the op who asked the question, I’ve owned Gen 3 and thermals without a issue. My lawyer instructed me to fill out the compliance forms as such and no company Ive dealt with has had an issue taking my money thus far!

There's no need to be condescending. There are exemptions for ITAR, and it's entirely possible you fit into one of them. For NV, ITAR specifically refers to "image intensification and other night sighting equipment or systems specifically designed, modified or configured for military use; second generation and above military image intensification tubes (defined below) specifically designed, developed, modified, or configured for military use, and infrared, visible and ultraviolet de- vices specifically designed, developed, modified, or configured for military application. Military second and third generation image intensification tubes and military infrared
focal plane arrays identified in this subparagraph are licensed by the Department of Commerce (ECCN 6A002A and 6A003A)) when part of a commercial system (i.e., those systems originally designed for commercial use). This does not include any military system comprised of non-military specification components. Replacement tubes or focal plane arrays identified in this paragraph being exported for commercial systems are subject to the controls of the ITAR. "

So in cases of systems that aren't repurposed from or designed for use by the military, they may fall under Department of Commerce and not State, and DoC has different regulations. The full regulations are available on the Department of State website if you'd like to try untangling them for yourself.

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

@remington patriot - Do you have a specific NV device in mind? That might help give you a better answer.

 

[EXTREMEPREJUDICE]

For the purposes of ITAR a "permanent resident alien" is considered a "US Person" with the same privileges and obligations of a "US Citizen. They can purchase and use class 1,2 and 3 just can't take it or ship it out of the country.

 

[remington patriot]

Thank you for the replies gentlemen. So here is a scenario. You are teaching a class or putting on a demonstration where NV equipment and thermal devices will be used. If you have a student or participant visiting from another country (non-green card holder), are they allowed to look through or touch the device? The scenario of non-US citizens at SHOT show is very interesting.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

In that scenario you may run into several issues....

1. The foreign person at the course is absolutely not allowed to view said NV and Thermals.
2. Depending on the course curriculum...the foreign person is NOT allowed to even take the course without having DDTC approve the curriculum for foreign students and/or approving said foreign student to have access to course.

I suggest you have your corporate attorney contact an ITAR specialized company BEFORE you allow any foreign person to attend ANY course you have available.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

I suggest you have your corporate attorney contact an ITAR specialized company BEFORE you allow any foreign person to attend ANY course you have available.

This. It really can't be emphasized enough. ITAR is a pain in the balls, and as this thread shows, there's a lot of misinformation and misunderstandings out there. Lawyer the hell up.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Just for clarity...I run a company that has both a Manufacturer and Broker ITAR registrations. I do this for a living, not from google.

Edit To Add:
NV issues are no joke in regards to DDTC.
FLIR got a 30 million dollar "settlement fine" for basically having dual citizenship employee have access to technical data for some equipment.
https://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2018/04/281211.htm

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Mr Flannel]

Hi,

I deal with ITAR on a daily basis. Is there anything specific other than what has been listed on TNVC FAQ page that you are trying to find out?

Isn't it ironic that non USA citizens can't even look through Gen 3 and better but YET just look at how many non USA citizens attend SHOT Show....

Sincerely,
Theis

The even bigger irony is that we keep showing up every time you lot jump into a shitfight, and jump in right beside you like the good mates we are - and we then get told to fuck off anytime we want to buy something that US citizens can possess without issue. Trusted enough to fight alongside - but not to look through NV/Thermal...what a fucking box of shit that is.

Sincerely, Australia.

 

[FF05]

The even bigger irony is that we keep showing up every time you lot jump into a shitfight, and jump in right beside you like the good mates we are - and we then get told to fuck off anytime we want to buy something that US citizens can possess without issue. Trusted enough to fight alongside - but not to look through NV/Thermal...what a fucking box of shit that is.

Sincerely, Australia.

Completely untrue, any Australian Citizen 'CAN' own gen3/ITAR restricted equipment with a US end user Certificate. If you can't afford it or be bothered going though the process, that's your problem.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

@Mr Flannel
You may want to read up on The Defense Trade Cooperation Treaty between the USA and Australia (Treaty Document 110-10), particularity the amendment of April 11, 2013.
And The Defense Trade Cooperation Treaty between the USA and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (Treaty Document 110-7) entered April 13, 2012.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

So lets see If I have this correct. The media can publish/video/push/hawk/finger fuck to their hearts content, an anyone viewing can watch on whats broadcast all over this rock. Yet some one helping us from XXX country in a gun fight, can't look thru one? What kind of fucked up B/S is that about. Talk about fucking over people trying to help. So one needs to get their head out of their ass, because as soon as shit gets used your ass better assume it will get lost an once lost the cats out of the bag. Fucking MIC Bull Fucking Shit,...

 

[Mr Flannel]

Completely untrue, any Australian Citizen 'CAN' own gen3/ITAR restricted equipment with a US end user Certificate. If you can't afford it or be bothered going though the process, that's your problem.

Two parts to my reply:

1. I’m aware that you can get some Gen 3 tubed NV from some manufacturers out on an end-user certificate, so that was over-generalising on my part. That stated, if you can get a current, top-end, US-made thermal sight (non-mil) out of the States on an end-user cert, I’ll be both (a) fucking surprised and (b) eat humble pie. And, having exported rifles from the U.S to here previously, I can (a) be ‘bothered’ and (b) afford it.

2. In relation to the ‘can’t look through’, my comment stands. Fortunately enough, during my time overseas, there were plenty of Americans who equally called bullshit on this ‘rule’ and would happily loan NV kit and even arrange for repairs when we were stuck. That courtesy was extended to other nationalities as well.

 

[sid]

I'm a German citizen since 7 years in the USA, the last 2 years with a green card, what is this compliance sheet and where do I get it?

I was interested in a pvs14 I'm pretty sure I can get my hands on one, but I'm worried that it could get confiscated is I use it in the wild, the compliance sheet will fix that?

I got 3 more years until I can apply for citizenship, but plan on being a dual citizenship person, will I still have troubles with that? Looking as how flir got I to troubles for having a dual citizen work for them.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

@sid
Do not worry about the dual citizenship being an issue in relation to FLIRs issue. They were in violation due to the countries of the dual citizenship workers. They were from countries (Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, and Cuba) that are on the DDTC embargo/sanctions list.

Germany is not on such list.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[sid]

Hi,

@sid
Do not worry about the dual citizenship being an issue in relation to FLIRs issue. They were in violation due to the countries of the dual citizenship workers. They were from countries (Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, and Cuba) that are on the DDTC embargo/sanctions list.

Germany is not on such list.

Sincerely,
Theis

Oh ok thank you!

 

[FF05]

Two parts to my reply:

1. I’m aware that you can get some Gen 3 tubed NV from some manufacturers out on an end-user certificate, so that was over-generalising on my part. That stated, if you can get a current, top-end, US-made thermal sight (non-mil) out of the States on an end-user cert, I’ll be both (a) fucking surprised and (b) eat humble pie. And, having exported rifles from the U.S to here previously, I can (a) be ‘bothered’ and (b) afford it.

2. In relation to the ‘can’t look through’, my comment stands. Fortunately enough, during my time overseas, there were plenty of Americans who equally called bullshit on this ‘rule’ and would happily loan NV kit and even arrange for repairs when we were stuck. That courtesy was extended to other nationalities as well.

Ok, Gen3 isn't the issue.
If you chasing top end thermal in Australia give ADJATAC a call. He has Hensoldt Thermals for around $34,000.

Infantry Veteran myself. As you would be aware, our Military's NV/Thermal internals are suppiled and regulated by the US.
Yes, the 'can't look through' rule is stupid, especially since we're using the same internals.