NYPD New Year's Rifle

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

To be honest, I'd much rather they have spent $10k on training and practice with a $2k rifle. I had a military sniper out at my place not long ago teaching a course for a couple days. The amount of things he didn't know about shooting accurately was astounding.

I'll tell you that what you're saying is true. I was a sniper in the army, and I learned more in a month of prs shooting than years spent as a sniper. It's a different mission, and shooting isn't a huge part of the actual job. Success is hitting a 20"×40" silhouette target with the first round at reasonable distances, so the need for real precision isn't that strong. You don't know what you don't know.

 

[patriot07]

Having worked for the state of NY i can tell you that if you don't spend every dime of your budget every year than you are pulling teeth to ever get that much money again. They basically see it's you don't really need that money so it goes somewhere else next yearand good luck ever getting that back.

That's not the question. The question is why they were given $12k+ per rifle to start with when a $2k rifle would perform the same.

 

[patriot07]

I'll tell you that what you're saying is true. I was a sniper in the army, and I learned more in a month of prs shooting than years spent as a sniper. It's a different mission, and shooting isn't a huge part of the actual job. Success is hitting a 20"×40" silhouette target with the first round at reasonable distances, so the need for real precision isn't that strong. You don't know what you don't know.

So do you need a $12k rifle to hit a 20"x40" target at reasonable distances?

 

[Steel+Killer]

My question: if Chris Kyle got by with a $6,500 rifle, why did the NYPD need this Sako?

To answer your question.....No the NYPD absolutely did not need a Sako they could have gotten a Tikka and been just as capable IMO. Let's be honest just how long of a shot is an urban police sniper really going to take in a crowded urban environment 300yds or less 500yds max would be my guess. Either way they didn't and don't need a 12K rifle, but like others have said it's not their money so they don't give a fuck!

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

So do you need a $12k rifle to hit a 20"x40" target at reasonable distances?

Shit, the DOD could find a way to pay $24k for a savage axis.

In their $8 trillion dollar budget, the cost of the sniper rifles isn't even worth discussing. Despite the fact that there are two snipers in every bar in America, there aren't very many. At the time I left the army, there were something like 580k people in, and probably less than a thousand snipers total. Maybe as few as 500. If they gave them $100k rifles, it wouldn't amount to the cost of the field sanitation kits. That is kind of an inside joke that some will understand..

 

[mark5pt56]

Multitude of reasons I'm sure---one being do you see a top level competitor with a box stock Tikka? I've shot equal groups with a Savage 10 35 years ago as it's what I could afford, but is it the same as a custom or AI I have today?

 

[cas6969]

Shit, the DOD could find a way to pay $24k for a savage axis.

City / State likes to do things "easy", like buying little things through Grainger or WB Mason, even though it costs 25% more than anywhere else. Also through a "preferred vendor", female or minority owned, so they can tack on another 15-25%. So there's little doubt they over paid for them.

 

[FUNCTIONAL]

That's not the question. The question is why they were given $12k+ per rifle to start with when a $2k rifle would perform the same.

And what I'm saying is the budget line item probably isn't specifically "sniper rifle" it's probably a lot more broad to cover other gear, equipment, vehicles, etc. If an order of say a new vehicle slipped into thenext year that would free up a ton of budget where they planned to spend 5k but can now spend 12k per rifle. If they have the money they are going to spend it if that level of equipment is "needed" or not.

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

The whole thread is kind of silly anyways. Who doesn't know that government at all levels is frivolous with their spending? Giving NYPD swat $12k rifles isn't even egregious. They probably pay millions each for the vehicles that drive them there. These guys are making $150-$200k/ year and probably have another $100k/ year in training courses.

For every $12k rifle, there's a room somewhere with hundreds of thousands of dollars in useless gear being eaten by rats.

 

[FUNCTIONAL]

City / State likes to do things "easy", like buying little things through Grainger or WB Mason, even though it costs 25% more than anywhere else. Also through a "preferred vendor", female or minority owned, so they can tack on another 15-25%. So there's little doubt they over paid for them.

A lot of times companies like that are on city or state contracts that let's anyother city/state agency work directly through them instead of going through the sometimes months long process. They have already competitively bid for the overall state contract (in NC one of them is called the Omnia contracts) and won for a number of years.

Honestly trough my time in NY and NC state work it's actually cheaper most times. Minority or woman owned is different they knowthe states have a quota and jack up their prices knowing there is a % requirement. When I left NY it was i besieged 20% and I hear today it's 30% of a job needs to be MWBE.

 

[stanley_white]

“I love it when arguments regarding tax dollar expenditures happen outside of The Bear Pit.”

-Nobody Ever

 

[Buck Wilde]

Your caretaker should really limit your internet use.
You felt it was necessary to write a whole page about a department, which probably has the highest budget in the world, having a nice rifle. Go yell at some more clouds.

People like you ruin forums. You're snotty to others for no reason. You also have no idea what "whine" means. You wasted everyone's time with an unnecessary, stupid, incorrect, off-topic remark that contributed nothing at all to an interesting thread.

You should never have come out of your hole.

A good deal of interesting information was provided by other people, along with some pleasant conversation. Go back, read, and learn.

Now I have to check and see if this forum has an "ignore" feature so you don't keep smelling up threads for me.

 

[Buck Wilde]

I'll tell you that what you're saying is true. I was a sniper in the army, and I learned more in a month of prs shooting than years spent as a sniper. It's a different mission, and shooting isn't a huge part of the actual job. Success is hitting a 20"×40" silhouette target with the first round at reasonable distances, so the need for real precision isn't that strong. You don't know what you don't know.

This is a great post. I was too mushy and selfish to serve, so I'm one of those people who don't get to see inside the world of the military very often. I would have assumed snipers trained like crazy.

I wonder how similar your experience and a police sniper's would be. I would guess they're not as busy and could spend more time shooting free ammo. Guess is all I can do, though.

 

[Stevo86]

To answer your question.....No the NYPD absolutely did not need a Sako they could have gotten a Tikka and been just as capable IMO. Let's be honest just how long of a shot is an urban police sniper really going to take in a crowded urban environment 300yds or less 500yds max would be my guess. Either way they didn't and don't need a 12K rifle, but like others have said it's not their money so they don't give a fuck!

I think the average engagement is between 50 and 60 yards…. Someone could double check me on that

 

[Buck Wilde]

To answer your question.....No the NYPD absolutely did not need a Sako they could have gotten a Tikka and been just as capable IMO. Let's be honest just how long of a shot is an urban police sniper really going to take in a crowded urban environment 300yds or less 500yds max would be my guess. Either way they didn't and don't need a 12K rifle, but like others have said it's not their money so they don't give a fuck!

So my guess was not far off. Thanks.

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

This is a great post. I was too mushy and selfish to serve, so I'm one of those people who don't get to see inside the world of the military very often. I would have assumed snipers trained like crazy.

I wonder how similar your experience and a police sniper's would be. I would guess they're not as busy and could spend more time shooting free ammo. Guess is all I can do, though.

I made a short post here about my experience training with a bunch of police swat snipers for a week. That was 2009 I think, at Ft Carson. Those guys, those places, they were severely under equipped and poorly trained. I'm sure departments around the country vary wildly. I'm sure there are places where their snipers are excellent.

 

[Buck Wilde]

Do you pay attention to whats being talked about here on the hide? You’ve been here four years, so you must read to some degree. These features you’re failing to understand are discussed here incessantly.

Believe it or not, a lot of people haven't memorized every thread that has been posted here, and there are a lot of people who have lots of other interests that take up their time. Shooting isn't my life.

I took my only rifle course at the start of the pandemic, hoping to get deeper into it, and then the world shut down. Couldn't buy ammo. Couldn't take another course.

Then I got married and had a lot of other things on my plate, like driving my wife to baby docs over and over.

If I had taken that course in 2015, the picture would be a lot different.

Also, it looks like some people don't agree with you, so maybe my original post was just fine.

 

[Skunk]

The gear and people that show up to LEO sniper schools and training is diverse, to say the least. Some rifles are top notch, some are junk. Some students are really motivated and are also hobby shooters. Some of them are only there because they were told to be, and they aren’t interested at all.

These pics were taken at the same course I posted about earlier in the thread.

 

[spife7980]

Believe it or not, a lot of people haven't memorized every thread that has been posted here, and there are a lot of people who have lots of other interests that take up their time. Shooting isn't my life.

Yeah you don’t need to tell us that. We can tell because you made a dumb ass thread like this in the first place.

 

[Buck Wilde]

Yeah you don’t need to tell us that. We can tell because you made a dumb ass thread like this in the first place.

Another genius comment. Do you own this forum? Did you know forums rely on members posting content to stay alive? Did you know this is a business, not your personal kingdom?

Do you understand that making snotty, space-wasting remarks discourages the production of new content? Do you realize this forum welcomes people who aren't experts and ACTIVELY SELLS THEM INSTRUCTION VIDEOS in order to pay the bills?

Frank should get rid of those videos and weed out everyone who isn't an expert like you or part of your high tribunal clique.

Videos that help beginners just attract grateful troublemakers like me. I paid for them and loved them. I plan to watch them again.

It would be great if there were only 4 members here, patting each other on the back over their shooting medals and agreeing about everything.

Somehow a number of other people here found the thread interesting enough to reply to with great content.

Dumbasses, right?

How did your post make the forum better or help anyone have a better day?

 

[cas6969]

Honestly trough my time in NY and NC state work it's actually cheaper most times. Minority or woman owned is different they know the states have a quota and jack up their prices knowing there is a % requirement. When I left NY it was i besieged 20% and I hear today it's 30% of a job needs to be MWBE.

Unfortunately I have daily first hand with this stuff and my arguments fall on deaf ears. I'm told "Oh, that's not the real price, we get a 10% discount." (the fact that the price is 25% higher than anyone else and their "discount" is bringing it down to only 15% over priced doesn't seem to matter. As long as they can tell themselves they're saving money, that's what matters. Across the board they spend thousands and tens of thousands to save hundreds. )

 

[Buck Wilde]

The gear and people that show up to LEO sniper schools and training is diverse, to say the least. Some rifles are top notch, some are junk. Some students are really motivated and are also hobby shooters. Some of them are only there because they were told to be, and they aren’t interested at all.

These pics were taken at the same course I posted about earlier in the thread.

Thanks for the insider knowledge. I know how some of those guys feel.

I showed up for a course with an LR308 and a Leupold varmint scope. I attracted a number of remarks, none of which were rude.

The instructors helped us mount our scopes, and still, mine came loose and had to be torqued down. Then the scope's tracking locked up, and I had to aim into trees about 15 feet above the last target.

I hit every target, though.

 

[NateVA]

Keep in mind the NYPD's size and budget is on par with a medium country's military. They pay hundreds of millions in unnecessary overtime every year so cops can play candy crush on the subway. This is nothing to them.

 

[ma smith]

+1 This is basically the NYC SWAT team buying the current .mil grade rilfe. There's nothing to see here.

I've seen motorcades there with mini-guns pointing out the back of SUVs...
...although they closed those tailgates real fast...

 

[mark5pt56]

I made a short post here about my experience training with a bunch of police swat snipers for a week. That was 2009 I think, at Ft Carson. Those guys, those places, they were severely under equipped and poorly trained. I'm sure departments around the country vary wildly. I'm sure there are places where their snipers are excellent.

The worst I ever saw was a coupe of "kids" from a small dept. In their words, they were told to find a school, buy their own rifle and equipment, did well though in spite of what they had.

 

[cas6969]

It's like anything else, we don't mind them having the right tools when they need them. It's the temptation to use the wrong tools at the wrong time because they have them and never get to use them.

 

[918v]

A $2000 rifle is a piece of shit.

 

[ma smith]

NYPD's high-grade units are equipped on par with USS, FBI-HRT, and BorTac...etc, because NYC area isn't a typical local LEO jurisdiction.

And these assets get used regularly...eg UN meets every year in NYC

In accordance with its obligations under the United Nations Headquarters Agreement, the United States, as host country to the United Nations, is committed to assuring the safety and security of the United Nations Headquarters, the Permanent and Observer Missions accredited to the United Nations, and the members of the United Nations diplomatic community. This responsibility is one of the most important of our obligations, and is codified in United States law under the Act for the Protection of Foreign Officials and Official Guests of the United States (Public Law 92-539, 86 STAT.1070)

The Host Country Affairs Section of the United States Mission to the United Nations helps to assure the safety and security of the United Nations diplomatic community by acting as liaison between that community and the myriad local, state, and federal agencies with the ability, responsibility and expertise in providing investigative, security, and law enforcement services. Among the many agencies involved are the New York City (and other metropolitan area) Police Department(s), the United States Department of State Diplomatic Security Service (DS), The United States Secret Service (USSS), and the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI).

link2>https://www.politico.com/news/2024/...ders-safe-at-the-un-general-assembly-00180376

 

[ma smith]

Link>https://usun.usmission.gov/mission/host-country-section/security-and-protective-services/

 

[LMTMWS]

The government doesn't care what things cost because money isn't real, so they have an unlimited amount of it. On the flipside I shot for a week one time with the swat snipers from around Colorado Springs. Denver, vale, Pueblo, (I think), and several more. They showed up with gear ranging from stock rem 700's from Walmart with 3-9x bushnell scopes that weren't zeroed, all the way to a Cheytac intervention .I think the cheytac was from Vale. Most of them were really good guys, most of them had little or no training, and little or no familiarity with their weapons systems. Some of them didn't even have any camouflage. There were a few that had been to police or civilian sniper schools, and maybe one or two were former military snipers. Their equipment, skill level, physical fitness, general intelligence, and ballistic intelligence ran the gamut. I learned that if you're ever in a situation where a military sniper needs to shoot someone close to you, you probably better duck. There's a pretty good chance they won't even be able to hit the building that you're standing in. Most of them had basically no annual budget allocated for training, or even ammo for range time. The guys with the cheytac didn't even have any ammo. I think they said that they were given 100rds with the rifle and it was gone, so now they had to wait for the next quarter or something to get more. I guess if it's someone I care about in a bad spot, I'd prefer that they had the best gear and training money can buy.

Yep, they should have the best gear money should buy when someone you care about is in a bad spot, like when they were insuring old people were locked up during COVID and their families couldn't visit. They need proper overwatch.

 

[LMTMWS]

What is your point?

If your Mom was taken hostage wouldn't you want the Police Sniper to have the very best gear to end the hostage taker?

Hostage in a nursing home for instance?

 

[Supersubes]

Believe it or not, a lot of people haven't memorized every thread that has been posted here, and there are a lot of people who have lots of other interests that take up their time. Shooting isn't my life.

I took my only rifle course at the start of the pandemic, hoping to get deeper into it, and then the world shut down. Couldn't buy ammo. Couldn't take another course.

Then I got married and had a lot of other things on my plate, like driving my wife to baby docs over and over.

If I had taken that course in 2015, the picture would be a lot different.

Also, it looks like some people don't agree with you, so maybe my original post was just fine.

Responding to the same post a second time?

 

[DarnYankeeUSMC]

Well damn. I just found out, in this thread, that you need camo clothing to take a shooting course.

 

[Bender]

Having worked for the state of NY i can tell you that if you don't spend every dime of your budget every year than you are pulling teeth to ever get that much money again. They basically see it's you don't really need that money so it goes somewhere else next yearand good luck ever getting that back.

Baseline budgeting is exactly everything that is wrong with this government

 

[Baron23]

This is an idiotic thread. Love to see the OP opine about how people also don't need to spend $$ on an AI when they can get a Savage for far less

 

[Buck Wilde]

Responding to the same post a second time?

Oh, no. Hope I'm not on double secret probation. Let me go check the terms of use.

FYI, you don't know what a Fudd is. Go look it up.

 

[Nik H]

This is an idiotic thread. Love to see the OP opine about how people also don't need to spend $$ on an AI when they can get a Savage for far less

To each their own. I find that the pain of paying more for the best fades quickly. The pain of regret lasts much longer. However, not everyone can afford to do that. It is better to buy what you can afford and shoot more than being in debt over a rifle to the extent where it becomes unaffordable to shoot it regularly enough to achieve proficiency.

 

[Redmanss]

Military sniping ≠ Police sniping. Nowhere close, not even the same ballpark. Shit, it's really not even the same sport.

There are massive differences in the mission, training, employment, tactics and priorities. We'd (as a USMC Scout Sniper) spend maybe 15 training days a year on the range shooting our sniper rifles, even that's pushing it depending on deployment cycles. Everything else was spent on things that really mattered like navigation, supporting fires, observation and reconnaissance, and a dozen other training elements that all had higher priority than shooting. In actual combat, the real killing work is done through a handset.

When a military sniper misses a shot and even hits the wrong target, it's battlefield collateral damage and usually doesn't even get mentioned in the after action. Nobody gives a shit, get ragged about it and on to the next mission.

When a police sniper misses a shot, it's likely a multi-million dollar lawsuit/settlement, bad press and political ramifications. Having a weapon platform that is well known and employed in sniper units world wide gives credibility to fight those lawsuits while proving to world leaders that visit there every year they are taking things seriously. Having a weapon system that is turn key to procure and maintain is another key element, and when they have an issue with them they don't call a gunsmith, Sako/Beretta sends a rep on the next thing smoking to keep a department that size happy.

NYPD has a budget that's over half what my entire state's is, at $5.8 billion. That's just the NYPD, not NYC. Dropping $12k/platform for sniper rifles is a joke to them. A $1.3M purchase to outfit the who NYPD ESU? That's 0.02% of their annual budget, a drop in the Hudson River. I guarantee they have far more invested in SCUBA equipment.

As for rifle selection itself? They started in 2017 on their selection testing to replace their M24s and made the purchase in 2023. It's what worked for them, not what I would have chosen but none of my business otherwise.

https://a856-cityrecord.nyc.gov/RequestDetail/20221217106

Sole Source procurement with Atlantic Tactical for the provision of Sako TRG M10 Rifle Systems in support of the NYPD's ESU Counter Sniper Teams' operations. The NYPD has identified the need to purchase the specific rifle system described above that was selected to replace the aging Remington M24 sniper weapon system currently in use by the ESU counter sniper team. This decision was made as a result of rigorous testing of replacement rifles which began in 2017. The Sako rifle was subsequently chosen as the replacement and has been approved by ESU, the Chief of Special Operations, the C.O. Firearms and Tactics section and Chief of training.

 

[GIXXER2000]

AI has a LE discount program basically few hun over cost.

 

[Fig]

I'm glad somebody said it. I have hit my limit for arguements his week. Bro was a fraud.

Interestingly enough, Ramaddi was 2003, and thats 21 years ago.

$6,500 adjusted for inflation and plandemic gun prices is probably $15k in 2025.

He was not a fraud at all. He was a fabulist. I’ve known and been friends with many. They never seems to think the truth is fantastic enough even when it’s amazing. Plenty of narcissistic personalities and early onset mental disorders at the tip of the spear. Nothing to worry about. It makes most of them good at their jobs…

 

[Emerson0311]

The government doesn't care what things cost because money isn't real, so they have an unlimited amount of it. On the flipside I shot for a week one time with the swat snipers from around Colorado Springs. Denver, vale, Pueblo, (I think), and several more. They showed up with gear ranging from stock rem 700's from Walmart with 3-9x bushnell scopes that weren't zeroed, all the way to a Cheytac intervention .I think the cheytac was from Vale. Most of them were really good guys, most of them had little or no training, and little or no familiarity with their weapons systems. Some of them didn't even have any camouflage. There were a few that had been to police or civilian sniper schools, and maybe one or two were former military snipers. Their equipment, skill level, physical fitness, general intelligence, and ballistic intelligence ran the gamut. I learned that if you're ever in a situation where a police sniper needs to shoot someone close to you, you probably better duck. There's a pretty good chance they won't even be able to hit the building that you're standing in. Most of them had basically no annual budget allocated for training, or even ammo for range time. The guys with the cheytac didn't even have any ammo. I think they said that they were given 100rds with the rifle and it was gone, so now they had to wait for the next quarter or something to get more. I guess if it's someone I care about in a bad spot, I'd prefer that they had the best gear and training money can buy.

That has been my very limited personal experience with the shooting abilities of LEOs also. Occasionally there will be one that is a full on experienced long range death dealer retired out of the military though, I met him too.

 

[NateVA]

He was not a fraud at all. He was a fabulist.

I'm not sure where the line is but to me making up the Super Dome thing and making up shooting two guys at a gas station is more in the fraud category. I'm sure he exaggerated a lot of real events as well so maybe he was both at once.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

I shot a TRG-22 my whole time on duty...

Didn't cost near $12,000! But it wasn't cheap either given 2007 dollars. It also hit exactly where it was supposed to, every single time.

So... what's the problem? It's a superb rifle for the job.

Oh and Chris Kyle and military snipers aren't looking to make cold bore medulla shots every single time. Military snipers (with the exception of hostage-rescue-type folks) differ from police Marksmen because a wound is still a mission kill. A torso shot where they bleed out is still a good shot. A wound lets you nail the guys coming to rescue their buddy. Head shots are generally not taken. Center mass shots are just fine. And at ELR ranges, a lot of the training is for anti-materiel.

.Mil guys are incredible at what they do. And shoot at ranges police would never, ever take a shot at. And their training (and AO) is way more strenuous and dangerous. War zones are not US urban areas where you are safe and backed up.

But the mission for police is a single cold-bore shot that is 100 percent on target and is a stopper. So the rifles, training and other objectives are different.

The TRG delivers on first-shot cold bore. So do a bunch of others... TacOps, AI... lots of others. So I'd not quibble with the choice. As someone said above, if it was your mother with a pistol at her head.... you want someone with a Savage and a Tasco?

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[Ronws]

I'm not sure where the line is but to me making up the Super Dome thing and making up shooting two guys at a gas station is more in the fraud category. I'm sure he exaggerated a lot of real events as well so maybe he was both at once.

And people have given heat when someone suggests that Hathcock could not have made the scope shot.

And someone called me on the carpet when I pointed out that in the movie "American Sniper," Kyle would not have needed to make that 1 mile shot into the scope of the sniper across the city. Local command would have oriented one of the other sniper teams in the area to deal with it. Someone's reply was, "Well, it was in Chris Kyle's book."

Okay, so he never stretched the truth or dressed it up. Maybe he did shoot another sniper on a roof but was it really that far away and through the scope? No one else is stepping forward to confirm or deny.

Anyway, to the OP, I don't have a problem with NYC getting that rifle. If it works great, all the better. But price is ear-elephant.

Just like SOCOM opting for both the 6.5 CM for enemy agent interdiction and also the MRAD kits. One MRAD kit has .308 W, .300 WM, and .338 LM. The other kit has .308 W, .300 NM, and .338 NM.

But plenty of snipers have done well with simpler systems. Cleckner in his time in the Ranger 1/75, carried the M24 in .300 WM.

Others carried the KA SR-25 (Mk 11 Mod 0) in .308 W.

Of the snipers I have read, most enemy engagements were at 500 yards and closer, often quite a bit closer. And, I have also learned that yes, the job of sniper is not just shooting the rifle. It is being a sneaky bastard. And gathering intel and other support services.

 

[patriot07]

A $2000 rifle is a piece of shit.

Tell me you don't know anything without telling me you don't know anything

 

[918v]

Tell me you don't know anything without telling me you don't know anything

Your rifle is a piece of shit.

 

[Skunk]

Well damn. I just found out, in this thread, that you need camo clothing to take a shooting course.

For a “shooting course,” I supposed not. Observer/Sniper courses normally contain some type of concealment/stalking exercise and the students generally wear functional clothing in colors appropriate to the environment. Common sense stuff…

Occasionally, a few students will show up in ass-less chaps, but it’s not common. I guess the rest of the students aren’t that confident.

 

[patriot07]

Your rifle is a piece of shit.

Ditto bro

 

[Doc68]

What is your point?

If your Mom was taken hostage wouldn't you want the Police Sniper to have the very best gear to end the hostage taker?

Nah, cause they would still shoot my dog....

Doc

 

[ma smith]

Nah, cause they would still shoot my dog....

Doc

NYC. Your Dog =