OAL drastic change.

PaganSnake

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Aug 23, 2018
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Hello all, I have an interesting issue.
I’ve been reloading for years now and have never run into this one.
I have a 6mm C that seems to have drastically changed oal on me. I used to shoot it right around 2.80 from tip to ass and now I can’t get anything to chamber, even something as low as 2.58, which is so low that the bullet is barely even sitting in the case.
When I run my comparator in the same bullets I’m reloading I get a oal on the comp of about a 2.95 so I should have room... but the bolt handle literally will not press down and the bullet itself shows wear near the end of the nose like it’s made contact with the throat.
Any thoughts??
I have about 250 reloads through this set up - impact 737 action with bartlin barrel in a foundation.
 
Pictures attached are coal, chafing on the end of the bullet where I believe it is making contact and the extent of my bolt travel with a round in
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Strange that a ring would show up that far down the nose. How would the rest of the bullet fit if your chamber is that size? Speaking of which what is the measurement at the ring?

Carbon ring seems to be a popular diagnosis. Have you done a serious cleaning?

Bore scope it.
 
Im thinking maybe the bolt is some how over traveling? The fact that I can get the comparator to fit the round in but I can’t close the bolt on it..
 
Lol I have no idea, I can’t think of any reason why it wouldn’t chamber but would still take the comparator, just spitballing here. Idk if it could be a chamber/bolt issue. Stahp ?
 
All fair questions.
I’m positive it’s a 6mm C I’ve sent about 250 rounds through it.
I’ve never noticed to have lost a case neck, that’s one I had not thought of but I think it’s unlikely, especially since I can still put empty cases in and close the bolt / get the comparator in there so far, that’s what’s really throwing me for a loop.
Agreed, I find that unlikely as well.
 
The ring could be caused by a seating die maybe, what do your rounds look like before chambering. I'm assuming your sizing step is incorrect. Or your seater is crimping the case and pushing shoulders down on themselves.

Are all your problems on 1x fired brass, 2x fired brass? Is your primer fully seated?
 
The ring could be caused by a seating die
Ding ding ding, winner.
That mark is from your seating die.

The nose will never touch the bore out that far. If it did you it would never shoot, just explode. Same as shooting a 30 cal bullet in a 22 barrel.

How long since you cleaned your barrel? Soak a patch in boretech carbon or carb cleaner of clr and let it sit in the throat for 10 minutes and then take a bronze brush a spin it in the throat. Clean that baby out.

What your fired vs sized headspace measurement? I ask because your bullet at the bearing surface doesn’t have any scratches like a carbon ring would present. So is it really the bullets that’s causing it or is it your brass condition?
 
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Try seating a bullet them pull it and see if the piece of brass still chambers. My guess is carbon ring interference with case mouth (which will be larger when a bullet is seated) or you dun fucked something up during the seating of the bullet. What is your neck tension? That mark looks like it is from the seating die but I feel like you would notice the mark when you inspect the bullet before attempting to chamber it.
 
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This brass is on its 3rd reload, neck sized and recently trimmed.

Good call on the marks on the bullet being from the seater, that was ?

Borescope wont be in till tomorrow, but it seems it is no longer necessary. I spent a fairly significant amount of time solvent cleaning and short stroking the chamber with a brass brush just encase it was a carbon ring and pulled out a bunch of carbon. I still don’t understand where the ring formed or why it was impacting my chambering the way it was. But I’m now able to fit 2.8” oal rounds again so I guess we’re good to go.

Thanks again for the feedback, feeling a little bit like a dumbass for not getting after it with solvent in the first place. but hey. You live and you learn. Thanks again all
 
There's a lot that is fundamentally wrong with what you're doing OP; I say this lovingly.

1.) Those aren't comparators. That's a caliper. Comparators attach to calipers to give you relative measurements. Get a set of OAL and headspace comparators.

2.) Once you get the OAL comparator, measure your depth relative to the lands using the BTO vs. OAL (like you're doing now). Measuring OAL on a OTM/HP bullet will never be consistent session to session, and more importantly lot to lot.

I bet that gun shoots great some days, and not as great others; it's probably because you're varying your seating depth (relative to the lands, where it matters) by as much as ~.010-.015 between sessions, and god only knows between different lots of bullets.

3.) Once you get the headspace/bump comparator, start using FL dies. That neck sizing stuff is stupid, and will result in you having difficulty chambering brass every single time. You need to bump the shoulders ~.002 back. This is very close to neck sizing, but will afford you the benefit of sizing your case enough to chamber without any drama.

4.) If you aren't using a micrometer seater, start doing that.

5.) Carbon rings form in the throat, but unless you've got way too little neck wall clearance (for a PRS rifle like you're shooting), it shouldn't prevent you from chambering a round after 250 down the tube. Just basic cleaning should also take care of them...they aren't as big a deal as the internet makes out, unless you just don't clean the rifle ever. Use something like BoreTech and a good bronze brush...you'll never even see a carbon ring with your borescope if you do this.
 
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There's a lot that is fundamentally wrong with what you're doing OP; I say this lovingly.
--- Always open to feedback! Much appreciated.

1.) Those aren't comparators. That's a caliper. Comparators attach to calipers to give you relative measurements. Get a set of OAL and headspace comparators.
--- Edit*** The OAL gauge** is out of frame, I was using the calipers to show the potential OAL the chamber was allowing.

2.) Once you get the OAL comparator, measure your depth relative to the lands using the BTO vs. OAL (like you're doing now). Measuring OAL on a OTM/HP bullet will never be consistent session to session, and more importantly lot to lot.
---Good point, I've generally always used OAL enstead of BTO. In the past, I've had trouble getting consistent BTO measurements thus never had much confidence in them, I do have the equipment. I'll give it another go.

I bet that gun shoots great some days, and not as great others; it's probably because you're varying your seating depth (relative to the lands, where it matters) by as much as ~.010-.015 between sessions, and god only knows between different lots of bullets.
---Question - Assuming I'm using the same lot of bullets and seating die adjustments have not been made I should not have any variation in the seating depth, whether the seating die was set from a OAL or BTO measurement correct?
--- Question 2 - Is there a correlation between the jump distance and carbon ring set in time?


3.) Once you get the headspace/bump comparator, start using FL dies. That neck sizing stuff is stupid, and will result in you having difficulty chambering brass every single time. You need to bump the shoulders ~.002 back. This is very close to neck sizing, but will afford you the benefit of sizing your case enough to chamber without any drama.
---Will look into this, thanks!

4.) If you aren't using a micrometer seater, start doing that.
--- I've got one


5.) Carbon rings form in the throat, but unless you've got way too little neck wall clearance (for a PRS rifle like you're shooting), it shouldn't prevent you from cambering a round after 250 down the tube. Just basic cleaning should also take care of them...they aren't as big a deal as the internet makes out, unless you just don't clean the rifle ever. Use something like BoreTech and a good bronze brush...you'll never even see a carbon ring with your Borescope if you do this.
---I understand the concept of the carbon ring, I just don't understand the geometry of location of the one that I had. I probably should have waited until the borescope came in to get a better understanding of what was going on internally. It strikes me as odd that I would be able to get a case in the the chamber and push a bullet to nearly 2.9" with my compatater but would not be able to chamber a round that would be taking up less internal volume.

Thanks again for the feedback to all. I'm stoked to have an outlet of knowledge I can reach out to and get helpful answers as opposed to chair trolls sharp shooting.


00
 
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Just some good info

The OAL gauge is not a comparator.

This is a comparator, it is a datum via bushing that measures a consistent point on the shoulder to find how much you are full length sizing it. That is what is important for knowing how the case is actually interfacing with the chamber like you are currently having an issue with. OAL itself only matters to avoid pinching the bullet after the chamber ends, stay under max and youre fine. In my mind its basically the least valuable piece of information so long as its not out of line. The headspace clearance of the shoulder is the most important.
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Your ogive measurements should always be more consistent than the OAL measurements, if they arent then its because you are having other issues and not because its a bad method, it would just be showing you the results of your bad loading.
You care to know where the bullets bearing surface is starting to engage with the barrel, not about the OAL variations in nose length that are just floating out in space and never touching the barrel.
 
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I check the first few after adjustments then start running.

Usually they’re within a thousandth.
Yep, and then after 15-20 just for peace of mind I will check just to make sure differences in lube inside the die did anything but it rarely has changed. Usually its a new dry die that will show change as it becomes greased up.
 
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I check mine at the top of the row so every 10. I use the shallow side of cheap mtm universal trays to grease them up with one shot. Peace of mind. This issue did turn out to be headspace huh? It’s about the only thing that makes sense.
 
I've had cases grow right at the base to the point where they would not chamber. Even FL sizing would not size down that far. It would take about .001 difference in the O.D. and cartridge would not chamber.
 
I've had cases grow right at the base to the point where they would not chamber. Even FL sizing would not size down that far. It would take about .001 difference in the O.D. and cartridge would not chamber.
IIRC I read on another forum that you could grab a small base sizing die for a cartridge that is larger in length but same diameter to fix the web without sizing the rest (Ex. 308 Small Base die for 6 Dasher).
 
Well not sure what the cause is. Started having trouble chambering, some would be very tight some could not get the bolt closed. I started checking out the cases and anything that checked over .4715 at the base would not chamber. I hacked up a shell plate took out the decapper of my .45 ACP die and ran the cases through that, it fixed most of them. Yes, I have heard of Sb resizing dies probably a better route to take but didn't want to invest in a set.
 
My Hornady die wouldn’t size my base enough to chamber cases shot in my Bergara, in my PVA barrel Nucleus.
I was about to buy a small base die, but invested instead in new brass and Redding Comp set, which fondly enough, DOES size those old bases enough to chamber in both rifles.
 
My Hornady die wouldn’t size my base enough to chamber cases shot in my Bergara, in my PVA barrel Nucleus.
I was about to buy a small base die, but invested instead in new brass and Redding Comp set, which fondly enough, DOES size those old bases enough to chamber in both rifles.

was it a length or width issue with the Hornandy die?