I know it has been discussed in length here regarding the pros and cons of each. The guys that say they are seeing no change in accuracy when FL sizing I have a question. I normally just neck size for .308 using a Redding Type S Match neck die and get usually less than a thou of runout. I have been getting really good results out to 600m. Tried FL sizing using a std Redding FL die and averaged 3 thou of runout. Unless runout is not as important as some say I don't know how FL can be as accurate. I was using Lapua brass with 175 SMK'S. I would imagine die selection is important but I don't think everyone is using FL dies with bushings like the Redding Type S Match die. For the guys saying they see no difference when FL sizing, any opinions on what dies are used.
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Observation...Neck Sizing vs FL Sizing.
- Thread starter RRW
- Start date
Get a FL sizing die cut when you get your rifle built. Easy cheese.
Another great option is the Lee Collet Neck sizer and a Redding bump die. You can easily modify the Lee sizer to give whatever neck tension you want.
Just some ideas.
Another great option is the Lee Collet Neck sizer and a Redding bump die. You can easily modify the Lee sizer to give whatever neck tension you want.
Just some ideas.
Yes, I send my FL dies to Forster to hone them to the same neck size as the correct bushing. Adjust headspace with a redding comp shell holder and done.
RRW,
You're comparing apples and oranges here, and have arrived at a bit of a non-sequitor. To say the F/L may not be as accurate as N/S based on the run out observed on two samples is way off base. It merely tells you that one has more run out than the other, nothing more. How the dies were set up in the press, the dies themselves and a host of other factors all come into play here, and we haven't addressed them at all.
F/L sizing is used in every ballistics lab that I know of, for accuracy QC firing. I've fired literally tens of thousands of 10-round, 1/4 MOA groups in such testing over the years, and I won't even think of using N/S in any of my own personal guns. This most definitely includes all of those which I use in competition, at any range out to 1,000 yards. Properly set up and adjusted, F/L sizing gives up nothing to N/S techniques, and isn't any harder on the brass. It will, however, avoid a number of problems that you will eventually encounter if you stick to neck sizing. Murphy's a busy guy on a rifle range, but I promise you, he'll visit the guys who neck size first.
You're comparing apples and oranges here, and have arrived at a bit of a non-sequitor. To say the F/L may not be as accurate as N/S based on the run out observed on two samples is way off base. It merely tells you that one has more run out than the other, nothing more. How the dies were set up in the press, the dies themselves and a host of other factors all come into play here, and we haven't addressed them at all.
F/L sizing is used in every ballistics lab that I know of, for accuracy QC firing. I've fired literally tens of thousands of 10-round, 1/4 MOA groups in such testing over the years, and I won't even think of using N/S in any of my own personal guns. This most definitely includes all of those which I use in competition, at any range out to 1,000 yards. Properly set up and adjusted, F/L sizing gives up nothing to N/S techniques, and isn't any harder on the brass. It will, however, avoid a number of problems that you will eventually encounter if you stick to neck sizing. Murphy's a busy guy on a rifle range, but I promise you, he'll visit the guys who neck size first.
What ksthomas said^^^^^ I have tried both ways and once believed that neck sizing was the way to go. In my quest for really consistent reloads, I went to full length sizing and annealing. There are other factors but in the end it is a combination of a lot of little things that get hits consistently down range.
Jerry Clower told a story about the game warden, going with Claude Ledbetter on a fishing trip. He was catching fish when no one else was able to get a bite. He chunked a stick of dynamite and handed the game warden a lit stick of dynamite.The game warden was shaking it at Claude screaming,"You can't do this, it's illegal, you can't do this!" Claude said," You gonna argue, or FISH!"
These discussions are starting to sound a lot like that story. With folks arguing the intricacies of runnout. "I have .005", I have .003" etc etc. Have you shot the loads? I keep pitching this ball and maybe it is a bit too fast for anyone to make contact. I use a plain old Rockchucker that has never been fussed over. Out of the box set of Redding FL dies, no bushings, no frills. My '06 will shoot .5MOA at 1000yd with no special voodoo. If you are shooting BR then frankly, you are on the wrong website. I have no idea what my runnout is on my loads, but I know who built my rifle, and I know how he does what he does. He is not a self promoter, he lets his work speak for him. I have yet to hear of a rifle he built that wasn't an absolute hammer. I don't know of any guys that shoot his builds that check runnout. Most of your runnout problems lie at the feet of your smith and the components he put in the rifle, and HOW he put them together. We were at the range one day and he commented on my groups,SD's, and said dang that is good reloading. I laughed and said that it most certainly wasn't the reloads or the man putting them together, and no one knows better than the man pulling the press handle. Most would, and do, cringe at my loading practices. I digress.
I say to all the gadget jockeys: Are you gonna argue, or SHOOT?"
These discussions are starting to sound a lot like that story. With folks arguing the intricacies of runnout. "I have .005", I have .003" etc etc. Have you shot the loads? I keep pitching this ball and maybe it is a bit too fast for anyone to make contact. I use a plain old Rockchucker that has never been fussed over. Out of the box set of Redding FL dies, no bushings, no frills. My '06 will shoot .5MOA at 1000yd with no special voodoo. If you are shooting BR then frankly, you are on the wrong website. I have no idea what my runnout is on my loads, but I know who built my rifle, and I know how he does what he does. He is not a self promoter, he lets his work speak for him. I have yet to hear of a rifle he built that wasn't an absolute hammer. I don't know of any guys that shoot his builds that check runnout. Most of your runnout problems lie at the feet of your smith and the components he put in the rifle, and HOW he put them together. We were at the range one day and he commented on my groups,SD's, and said dang that is good reloading. I laughed and said that it most certainly wasn't the reloads or the man putting them together, and no one knows better than the man pulling the press handle. Most would, and do, cringe at my loading practices. I digress.
I say to all the gadget jockeys: Are you gonna argue, or SHOOT?"
^^^THIS!
People can chase unicorns all they want, but if they spent all the money on components (that work) and practiced just shooting then they would reap dividends.
I used to go buck wild on my reloading technique, now I just reload and I haven't noticed enough difference to go back to my old ways.
You should full length resize and never look back. I know the headspace of my chamber and I size my brass about .003 shorter than what the headspace is. I need my rifle to chamber and fire every time, and neck sizing will not give you that in the majority of the conditions.
At the 2013 GAP Grind, it rained, it was dirty and my ammo was wet and covered with sand while it was in the magazine. Even though I had to pound my bolt handle down to get a few to load, it worked and I made shots. Full Length sizing is what working/utility rifles need to function.
Mark
At the 2013 GAP Grind, it rained, it was dirty and my ammo was wet and covered with sand while it was in the magazine. Even though I had to pound my bolt handle down to get a few to load, it worked and I made shots. Full Length sizing is what working/utility rifles need to function.
Mark
Thanks for your input guys, it is much appreciated. I am getting a .260 barrel for my AI and will FL size. I am going to use the Redding Type S Match FL die. It makes sense for the reasons you stated. I am not new to shooting but have only been handloading for 1.5 years. I was fortunate to use "issued" ammunition but started handloading after entering some local F Class matches. I have shot in tactical competitions and the Canadian International Sniper Concentration twice through work and never had to worry about it because factory match ammo was used.
