Observation Optics for PRS

[whiskey_papa]

I am looking at observation optics for PRS competitions. I have an 8x monocular at the moment however I would like something with a bit more juice for dedicated tripod use. From what I gather, binos are the way to go so I am leaning heavily in that direction. The range I go to goes to about 1100 yards. Size and weight are a low priority as this will be stationary on a tripod most of the time. I am looking for bang-for-the-buck glass here as I am a beginner. I do not want something Chinese made unless the other options are completely unacceptable. I've narrowed my selection down to these optics but I have an open mind and would like input if I am off track here:

Vortex Viper HD 12x50 (Phillippines)
Burris Signature HD 12x50 (Japan)
Maven C.3 12x50 (Phillippines)

There are many, many 10x42 options that I could explore here but these are the higher power binos I could find. Could I be fine with 10 power or should I lean towards more magnification? Unfortunately I can't find 15x56s that aren't Chinese, so no Athlon, Bushnell, or Maven C.4. I would like to stay around the $300-700ish price bracket. Thanks!

 

[wpeach1912]

I highly recommend 15x binos, but you’ll need to spend a little more than that to get non China ones. I spotted with 10s for a couple years, but their effectiveness definitely drops at about 7-800 yards. 12s will get you a little more and all the ones you listed are good. If you’re shooting 800+ a lot you’ll want more magnification. I really like my 18x razors, but those would be out of your price range. I think Steiner HX 15x would be a good option if you can save some more. Most anybody at PRS matches will let you borrow glass

 

[whiskey_papa]

I highly recommend 15x binos, but you’ll need to spend a little more than that to get non China ones. I spotted with 10s for a couple years, but their effectiveness definitely drops at about 7-800 yards. 12s will get you a little more and all the ones you listed are good. If you’re shooting 800+ a lot you’ll want more magnification. I really like my 18x razors, but those would be out of your price range. I think Steiner HX 15x would be a good option if you can save some more. Most anybody at PRS matches will let you borrow glass

Yeah, I've considered the Kaibab and HX 15x56s to be the next step up but they're about double the price. Maybe in the future.

 

[whiskey_papa]

Just found out the Kaibabs are Chinese so those are out.

 

[gr8fuldoug]

Steiner 15x56??

 

[whiskey_papa]

Steiner 15x56??

They look good but they're a bit more than I am willing to spend at the moment.

 

[gr8fuldoug]

They look good but they're a bit more than I am willing to spend at the moment.

Did you add to cart for the sale price?

 

[whiskey_papa]

Did you add to cart for the sale price?

Yes, I did.

 

[gr8fuldoug]

Yes, I did.

If you have a few moments please give me a call, 516-217-1000

 

[ma smith]

Get 15x for spotting PRS. Hopefully you can get a good deal.

 

[rothgyr]

Yes, I did.

Legit, get on the phone and call Doug. The man will get you taken care of.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Used Leupold BX5 15x56 pop up fairly regularly for $700-$800 and are excellent. I saw some on here or Rokslide within the last few days. That’s going to be your best bet for getting good binos in your budget.

 

[K80/6.5]

Meopta b1 15x56

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Optics are the epitome of you get what you pay for. Either expect lower performance or pony up. Once you hit the $1k mark there some really good options if you are OK with 10x. I spot with 10x Leica geovids and actually prefer them to 15x for panning targets.

 

[whiskey_papa]

I called up Burris to ask about the Signature HD and the gentleman recommended I go for the 10x for the field of view coming from his experiences as an RO. However, I see many recommending the 15s. Would a 25% magnification increase justify doubling the cost? Where is the sweet spot in price to performance?

Used Leupold BX5 15x56 pop up fairly regularly for $700-$800 and are excellent. I saw some on here or Rokslide within the last few days. That’s going to be your best bet for getting good binos in your budget.

Thank you for the suggestion. How do they compare to the Steiner HX?

Meopta b1 15x56

Way out of my price range.

 

[whiskey_papa]

Optics are the epitome of you get what you pay for. Either expect lower performance or pony up. Once you hit the $1k mark there some really good options if you are OK with 10x. I spot with 10x Leica geovids and actually prefer them to 15x for panning targets.

I'm fine with simply acceptable performance overall, but what I really want is great performance for the money. Not looking to hit the $1k mark. I just need to be able to call hits and misses on steel out to just past 1k or so.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

I would look for the following used:

Zeiss Conquest HD
Kowa Gennies
Meopta B1
Vortex Razor
BX-5

Calling hits on steel with even the best binoculars past 800 is going to be difficult due to atmospherics. Anything at that distance should have a hit indicator on it, or the MD is Bush league.

 

[whiskey_papa]

I would look for the following used:

Zeiss Conquest HD
Kowa Gennies
Meopta B1
Vortex Razor
BX-5

Calling hits on steel with even the best binoculars past 800 is going to be difficult due to atmospherics. Anything at that distance should have a hit indicator on it, or the MD is Bush league.

Any specific magnification I should be looking for?

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I called up Burris to ask about the Signature HD and the gentleman recommended I go for the 10x for the field of view coming from his experiences as an RO. However, I see many recommending the 15s. Would a 25% magnification increase justify doubling the cost? Where is the sweet spot in price to performance?


Thank you for the suggestion. How do they compare to the Steiner HX?


Way out of my price range.

I used EL10x42’s for a while and they worked great but only because of the ridiculous resolution, no fucking way are Burris 10’s going to have have the resolution to do that. Personally I would skip Burris all together.

Never had or used Steiner HX but had predators and military lines and they were ok but not great. The BX5’s are the next best things to SLC 15x56 IMO.

There’s some used Meopta Meostar 12’s that also wouldn’t be a bad option but I’d go for the BX5’s.

Sold - Cabela's Euro HD (Meopta Meostar b1.1) 12x50

Selling a clean pair of 12x50 Euro HD's. These are the Meostar b1.1 version with the locking diopter. I am the original owner and they are in excellent condition, glass is clean and scratch-free. These are incredible binoculars. I'm only letting them go because I have too many, and my 10x50s get...

rokslide.com

Sold - Leupold BX-5 15x56

For sale Leupold BX-5 Santiam HD 15x56 Soft case and tripod adaptor included. I believe I still have the box will include if I can find it. $650PayPal and I’ll cover shipping Might consider a trade. Let me know what ya have.

rokslide.com

 

[whiskey_papa]

I used EL10x42’s for a while and they worked great but only because of the ridiculous resolution, no fucking way are Burris 10’s going to have have the resolution to do that. Personally I would skip Burris all together.

Never had or used Steiner HX but had predators and military lines and they were ok but not great. The BX5’s are the next best things to SLC 15x56 IMO.

There’s some used Meopta Meostar 12’s that also wouldn’t be a bad option but I’d go for the BX5’s.

Sold - Cabela's Euro HD (Meopta Meostar b1.1) 12x50

Selling a clean pair of 12x50 Euro HD's. These are the Meostar b1.1 version with the locking diopter. I am the original owner and they are in excellent condition, glass is clean and scratch-free. These are incredible binoculars. I'm only letting them go because I have too many, and my 10x50s get...

rokslide.com

Sold - Leupold BX-5 15x56

For sale Leupold BX-5 Santiam HD 15x56 Soft case and tripod adaptor included. I believe I still have the box will include if I can find it. $650PayPal and I’ll cover shipping Might consider a trade. Let me know what ya have.

rokslide.com

Thanks! I will keep those options in mind. The BX-5s being close to Swaros is high praise.

 

[AMTGMC]

Thanks! I will keep those options in mind. The BX-5s being close to Swaros is high praise.

Towards the end he gives his review of some other binos and gives high praise to the Bushnell forges.

 

[whiskey_papa]

Towards the end he gives his review of some other binos and gives high praise to the Bushnell forges.

Unfortunately the Forges are Chinese, otherwise they'd be perfect.

 

[Danrobberg]

The Bushnel forge is a great set of binos for the money. I was very impressed with the pair I had.

 

[kbiss]

I have the bushnell forge 15×56 and they are well worth the money. Your price range is tough to find anything better

 

[whiskey_papa]

While doing more research I came across these Celestron Echelon 20x70s... optics made in Japan and assembled in USA. However, FOV is a bit narrower 15x56s. What are SH's thoughts?

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Why are you trying to reinvent the wheel. We ha e hundreds of prs shooters who have settled on what works. 20x is way too much magnification unless you are spotting a single target.

 

[whiskey_papa]

Why are you trying to reinvent the wheel. We ha e hundreds of prs shooters who have settled on what works. 20x is way too much magnification unless you are spotting a single target.

Not trying to do anything but be better informed.

 

[JAS-SH]

I am looking at observation optics for PRS competitions. I have an 8x monocular at the moment however I would like something with a bit more juice for dedicated tripod use. From what I gather, binos are the way to go so I am leaning heavily in that direction. The range I go to goes to about 1100 yards. Size and weight are a low priority as this will be stationary on a tripod most of the time. I am looking for bang-for-the-buck glass here as I am a beginner. I do not want something Chinese made unless the other options are completely unacceptable. I've narrowed my selection down to these optics but I have an open mind and would like input if I am off track here:

Vortex Viper HD 12x50 (Phillippines)
Burris Signature HD 12x50 (Japan)
Maven C.3 12x50 (Phillippines)

There are many, many 10x42 options that I could explore here but these are the higher power binos I could find. Could I be fine with 10 power or should I lean towards more magnification? Unfortunately I can't find 15x56s that aren't Chinese, so no Athlon, Bushnell, or Maven C.4. I would like to stay around the $300-700ish price bracket. Thanks!

I know a bit about glass. I do both photography and astrophotography. I like Japanese optics and use a ton of Nikon products exclusively for my photography. They are all well made and have very good to exceptional optics. That quality range is always price determined. ED (Extra-low Dispersion) glass is the way to go but out of your price range.

Even Nikon good stuff has parts made in China. That said they are all assembled and tested in Japan. Nikon has too good a name to protect, therefore there are no bad optics at Nikon.

In your price range I would look for a spotting scope with a zoom eyepiece and a large objective lens say 80mm. Given the same optical quality, One good telescope (spotting scope) is less expensive two good telescopes (binoculars). You can take that to the bank!

And and important fact is that an optical instrument with a larger objective lens not only gathers more light, but has better definition - that's physics - called the Rayeigh limit - and why bigger telescopes see more detail than little ones.

All said and done at your price range I would choose a Nikon Prostaff 5 Spotting scope. $596 at Amazon.

Link:

Nikon Prostaff 5 Spotting Scope

Ps. I don't BS. I know optics. This is my smaller telescope. You're looking at over $20K worth of hardware, and included a picture taken with it below too. Click on the image for more detail....

 

[JBattles]

I know a bit about glass. I do both photography and astrophotography. I like Japanese optics and use a ton of Nikon products exclusively for my photography. They are all well made and have very good to exceptional optics. That quality range is always price determined. ED (Extra-low Dispersion) glass is the way to go but out of your price range.

Even Nikon good stuff has parts made in China. That said they are all assembled and tested in Japan. Nikon has too good a name to protect, therefore there are no bad optics at Nikon.

In your price range I would look for a spotting scope with a zoom eyepiece and a large objective lens say 80mm. Given the same optical quality, One good telescope (spotting scope) is less expensive two good telescopes (binoculars). You can take that to the bank!

And and important fact is that an optical instrument with a larger objective lens not only gathers more light, but has better definition - that's physics - called the Rayeigh limit - and why bigger telescopes see more detail than little ones.

All said and done at your price range I would choose a Nikon Prostaff 5 Spotting scope. $596 at Amazon.

Link:

Nikon Prostaff 5 Spotting Scope

Ps. I don't BS. I know optics. This is my smaller telescope. You're looking at over $20K worth of hardware, and included a picture taken with it below too. Click on the image for more detail....

Looks like a perfect rig for PRS - might need a little more top end magnification though

 

[redneckbmxer24]

While doing more research I came across these Celestron Echelon 20x70s... optics made in Japan and assembled in USA. However, FOV is a bit narrower 15x56s. What are SH's thoughts?

15x is the sweet spot for magnification but still having enough FOV and mirage not being too bad. 20X is going to see a lot more mirage and have a narrow FOV as you already know.

You can look to your hearts content but the answer isn't going to change. Clean used binos are going to be the best value for the $$ and everything in your budget thats new and appropriate specs for spotting is going to be chinese or phillipino imports and not on the same level as the used high quality Japanese units you could get for the same $$.

Basically you need to decide if having a new unit is worth the sacrifice in performance to stay in your budget. Those two that I already linked are going to be the best you're going to do for your money.

If it has to be new you may want to look at these:

Leupold BX-4 Pro Guide HD 12x50mm Roof Shadow Gray Like New Demo Binoculars 172675

Leupold BX-4 Pro Guide HD 12x50mm Roof Shadow Gray Like New Demo Binoculars 172675 for Sale!

www.eurooptic.com

They're listed as like new demo but they're indeed new. I've never used the 12's but for a deal like that I'd take the gamble as 12x enough with good glass. I have two pair of the 8x42 BX4's and I think they represent the best glass for the $$ out there. My biggest complaint with them is the depth of field which isn't a huge problem, you just end up using the focus wheel more. Now thats not to say that the 12's don't have a better depth of field, they easily may, the review on allbinos gives the 12x50's a much higher point score than the 8x42's and has notes about things that are better in the 12's. All of the BX4's and BX5's are made in Japan BTW.

I want some 12's for wildlife viewing and have owned 12x50 EL's and would love another pair but can't justify the cost for what I'll be using them for and I'm looking hard at the BX4's considering you can find them lightly used or like new second hand around $500. But if spotting PRS was my main goal I would 100% go BX5 15's over the BX4 12's.

 

[JAS-SH]

I called up Burris to ask about the Signature HD and the gentleman recommended I go for the 10x for the field of view coming from his experiences as an RO. However, I see many recommending the 15s. Would a 25% magnification increase justify doubling the cost? Where is the sweet spot in price to performance?


Thank you for the suggestion. How do they compare to the Steiner HX?


Way out of my price range.

There is no sweet spot in glass. More X needs bigger glass - its an exit pupil thing - and bigger glass cost a lot more to make. After all is said an done, when it comes to using optics, especially but not limited to long range daylight terrestrial use, the quality of the "seeing" conditions will determine what you can see.

In heavy mirage for example, there is no difference between $400 and S10K optics and X power matters not. It's only in great conditions when the air is dry and calm that you can tell the difference. And in those days/moments, the size of the objective lens and magnification rule the roost. It is that simple.

 

[ma smith]

The problem of PRS spotting using a 15x bino...
is what I would call a $1,500 problem.

If that is way out of your budget, the next step is "50%"
of those known solutions, ie $750-850 price point.

Otherwise this is just champage tastes vs a beer budget,
and no amount of explantion will suffice.

 

[JAS-SH]

Looks like a perfect rig for PRS - might need a little more top end magnification though

From the clubhouse balcony sipping a Margarita!

 

[BCP]

Just found out the Kaibabs are Chinese so those are out.

Other countries have different "country of origin" laws than ours. It might say japan on it but it could be chinese or phillipines too, and then QC'd in Japan.

When I started shooting service rifle I had a burris spotter with a straight eyepiece. That got old fast. Replaced it with an older used kowa that had an angled eyepiece and variable power, I think 11-33. Much better.

Binocular wise I would look for used meostar/cabelas euro.

 

[whiskey_papa]

I know a bit about glass. I do both photography and astrophotography. I like Japanese optics and use a ton of Nikon products exclusively for my photography. They are all well made and have very good to exceptional optics. That quality range is always price determined. ED (Extra-low Dispersion) glass is the way to go but out of your price range.

Even Nikon good stuff has parts made in China. That said they are all assembled and tested in Japan. Nikon has too good a name to protect, therefore there are no bad optics at Nikon.

In your price range I would look for a spotting scope with a zoom eyepiece and a large objective lens say 80mm. Given the same optical quality, One good telescope (spotting scope) is less expensive two good telescopes (binoculars). You can take that to the bank!

And and important fact is that an optical instrument with a larger objective lens not only gathers more light, but has better definition - that's physics - called the Rayeigh limit - and why bigger telescopes see more detail than little ones.

All said and done at your price range I would choose a Nikon Prostaff 5 Spotting scope. $596 at Amazon.

Link:

Nikon Prostaff 5 Spotting Scope

Ps. I don't BS. I know optics. This is my smaller telescope. You're looking at over $20K worth of hardware, and included a picture taken with it below too. Click on the image for more detail....

I was able to find a closeout Monarch 5 field scope 16-48x60 for a good price. Would that work? Still leaning towards binos.

 

[Niles Coyote]

I gave up on spotting scopes because of eye strain, but if you go that route you will want something low powered.

I use 12x50 swaro's and they have been great. I looked closely at the 15x swaro's several times to include friend's that had them at matches but went with 12x swaro's after having a look through those also at matches. What won me over was the wider field of view and the longer eye relief.

So, if forced into a decision of another brand I'd first look for the pair with the widest field of view followed by the longest eye relief. These will be on a tripod and you don't want your eyes to be right up on them to use them. The most vibration free way to use them will be on a sandbag, but if you want to directly mount them to the tripod the RRS binocular mount is the best I have found to date.

 

[whiskey_papa]

I gave up on spotting scopes because of eye strain, but if you go that route you will want something low powered.

I use 12x50 swaro's and they have been great. I looked closely at the 15x swaro's several times to include friend's that had them at matches but went with 12x swaro's after having a look through those also at matches. What won me over was the wider field of view and the longer eye relief.

So, if forced into a decision of another brand I'd first look for the pair with the widest field of view followed by the longest eye relief. These will be on a tripod and you don't want your eyes to be right up on them to use them. The most vibration free way to use them will be on a sandbag, but if you want to directly mount them to the tripod the RRS binocular mount is the best I have found to date.

How far do you use the Swaros and for what type of shooting?

 

[Niles Coyote]

How far do you use the Swaros and for what type of shooting?

100% PRS and I use them for every distance we are shooting. But like others have mentioned, it entirely depends on the seeing conditions present as to how far you will be able to detect impacts on beat up greyed out steel.

I'll add, when spotting for stages there hasn't been a time anyone has seen an impact with higher powered optics that I couldn't. And I have had a fair share of folks ask to use my bino's because they were clearer for the conditions present than their own.

 

[Kfive73]

Did the OP make a choice? If so, what did you get and how do you like? I’m in the market now and have basically the same requirements and budget.

 

[whiskey_papa]

Did the OP make a choice? If so, what did you get and how do you like? I’m in the market now and have basically the same requirements and budget.

Honestly the new Bushnell Match Pro EDs look like the ticket. Made in China unfortunately but you find me a set of binos with the features it has for under 700.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Honestly the new Bushnell Match Pro EDs look like the ticket. Made in China unfortunately but you find me a set of binos with the features it has for under 700.

Those are just forges with a reticle. The glass in them fucking suck, you'll have a headache by the end of the day spotting with them.

This guy is down to $650 shipped on the BX5 15x56's I posted before. That gets you glass you'll actually want to look through. You could spend double that and still not get better binos. The next step up is Meostar B1+ and then Swaro SLC for 15's.

Sold - Leupold BX-5 15x56

For sale Leupold BX-5 Santiam HD 15x56 Soft case and tripod adaptor included. I believe I still have the box will include if I can find it. $650PayPal and I’ll cover shipping Might consider a trade. Let me know what ya have.

rokslide.com

 

[MakeSawdust]

Those are just forges with a reticle. The glass in them fucking suck, you'll have a headache by the end of the day spotting with them.

This guy is down to $650 shipped on the BX5 15x56's I posted before. That gets you glass you'll actually want to look through. You could spend double that and still not get better binos. The next step up is Meostar B1+ and then Swaro SLC for 15's.

Sold - Leupold BX-5 15x56

For sale Leupold BX-5 Santiam HD 15x56 Soft case and tripod adaptor included. I believe I still have the box will include if I can find it. $650PayPal and I’ll cover shipping Might consider a trade. Let me know what ya have.

rokslide.com

Did the 15x forges go to shit? I have an early pair that are awesome. I have had them beside 15x Swaros dozens of times. The only time I have been able to see things with the swaros that I couldn't with the 15x forges was in heavy mirage. The build quality kind of sucks, and I have to constantly tighten them up to keep the interpupilary distance from moving, but the glass is damn good for the price.

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

consensus on the vortex 18x56 uhd's??? reasonably comparable to say leupold bx5 15x56/meos/maven/steinerHF (anything but SLC15's really) range of binos? haven't seen anyone mention them which surprises me - got a trusty vortex cert for being terrible at life lol and trying to unload my wallet of its burden.

 

[Niles Coyote]

The UHD's are good but you may want a model of lower power for a wider field of view for spotting at matches if that is your primary use.

 

[Birddog6424]

I'm the Burris guy here, but I can tell you in all honesty, those Japanese made Burris HDs are the most underrated bino under a $1000 that I know of. Especially here on the Hide. They really market those to the hunting crowd, so they haven't gained much traction in the PRS. But I guarantee you in a side by side with the optics you're looking at, everyone here would give those HDs the nod.

Of the three you list it has the best glass, and the optic is bullet proof on breakage. You won't touch anything as good at that price point.

As far as magnification, I've been running Steiner 10x binos for 2 years now without issue. It works fine for PRS. I have some 15x binos that I no longer use. 12x also work very well. I like the wider field of view to locate targets and get a good look at the terrain around it to better help me memorize the target location for faster transition.

 

[TheOtherAndrew]

My plan is to use cert to end up with:

1) guna get [8xUHD] for field matches/NRL - target scanning etc (huge FOV 422ft I think @1000y); but main purpose for <600 target ID; better picture quality for details and huge FOV for easy transitioning

2) already have [10x sig LRF binos] for general purpose ranging/catchall/fallback (glass isn't amazing, FOV isn't amazing, but its a modern optic/bino so performs okay in a pinch and I already have it at a good price point)

3) void is 'spotter' - for some reason Ive always wanted the Mark4 with TMR ret but really I doubt Id ever use it - nice but I just cant get behind that purchase.....so instead was thinking a high powered bino 15/18x [18xUHD] for depth/easy on eyes, trace, splash, wind downrange 600-1000yd area (no reticle but if I really need to Ill just use my scope to ret range, and im 'good enough' at calling corrections without ret for the few times Im doing that)

issue with this idea is that for HiPower comps I think Id be SOL without an angled, true spotting unit; cant/shouldnt always rely on borrowing others' stuff and peeping over onto a 18x bino in prone at 600 sounds annoying - have considered getting the small 11-33x razor and it is cheap enough...unsure if that unit performs at 33x though or if, like most optics, usable range is really the middle 33% so ~19-25x which is on the edge of meh/okay for that style of shooting. *anybody have 1st hand use with the vortex razor 11-33 spotter; no problem at 33x?

 

[ma smith]

The traditional spotters are good at spottng and poor at target acquisition. Binos are better for targe acquisition and offer higher comfort when transitioning alot of targets all day.

Bino does RO thing OK without high resolution because its fast target acquistion. Spotter in jobs that need high resolution, which is useful on fixed targets, where slow target acquisiton isn't an issue. Each has a job to do, depending on what you need.

The risk with 18x bino is you are in uncanny valley -- neither here nor there.

 

[JAS-SH]

The traditional spotters are good at spottng and poor at target acquisition. Binos are better for targe acquisition and offer higher comfort when transitioning alot of targets all day.

Bino does RO thing OK without high resolution because its fast target acquistion. Spotter in jobs that need high resolution, which is useful on fixed targets, where slow target acquisiton isn't an issue. Each has a job to do, depending on what you need.

The risk with 18x bino is you are in uncanny valley -- neither here nor there.

All basically true but there a lot of caveats here.

Binos are better for light weight and handheld use - 10X about max (fact). Over that you need a monopod, tripod or elbows resting on something, especially for longer distances say > 600 yards or so on a 6 to10-inch target.

Scanning for targets at long range - clarity wins = larger objective lens (fact). Not enough clarity, lack of magnification and handheld shaking all hinder target acquisition.

12-16x binos with larger objectives are heavy and good ones are very expensive - at 16x good ones are more weight and a lot more money compared to 16X at the low end of zoom on spotting scopes (fact). You're basically buying two lower end spotting scopes. Why? because they will have smaller objective lenses than higher end spotting scopes.

When it comes to clarity objective lens size wins (fact).

There are compromises on spotting scopes too. you can get a lower end but still top of the line one (smaller objective and less clarity though) with a 16X low end magnification, and for not a lot of money - but clarity is better.

Bottom line, each and every option is a compromise. The big question is - What are you willing to compromise on? What's more important to you will dictate your compromise and as we all do, you'll accept it and live with that. Just don't preach it to someone who is willing to accept a different compromise...