Odd "flyers" on first round?

[Subwrx300]

So had an interesting find today. I zeroed a new scope on my 224V and noticed I'm getting "flyers" on a first round shot.

The orange dots mark the center of each of the first 6 rounds fired. Having such a solid group, I thought "let's keep going!" So I put one round in mag, dropped bolt and fired shot at 6 o'clock. Repeated, with another single round from mag, dropped bolt and highest 12 o'clock. Then 10 o'clock, then last at inner 12 o'clock.

Saw this issue on few separate groups where first round sailed well out of normal group.

I would like to say it was something I did however I also shot another semi auto today along side this one and did not have anything like this issue. Any ideas on items to check?

What mechanical issues might be causing/contributing to this? Dumb luck? Seems too repeatable to purely coincidence.
Thanks in advance for input!

 

[XLR308]

I can't see your pics but by the description you gave it sounds like something I have noticed as well in the past.
If you are describing the same scenario I have found is that when you drop the carrier from the locked position and let it slam the round into the chamber there is a tendency for that shot to be out of the group.

I would suggest ridding the charging handle down controlling the carrier during charging so it doesn't slam the round into the chamber and then ensure lock up with the forward assist.

This has helped with me with the odd flyers on first round shot from the magazine. Depending on your carrier and spring you may be slamming the round into the chamber with enough force to upset the seating depth slightly.

 

[Wheres-Waldo]

A friend of mines rifle would do the same thing when I shoot it. The first round fired after getting back into position would be WAY outside, though it was very repeatable.

The cause was errors in NPA and position, and recoil would cause the rifle and I to settle in.

Run a test to see if the fliers are really just the first round fired after breaking position.

If not...

The rifle: check your fit, parallax, consistent cheek pressure.

The ammo: Measure base to ojive difference from a loaded round to that same round being chambered from a locked bolt.

 

[lennyo3034]

Just a theory, but try reducing gas if you have an adjustable gas block.

Dropping the bolt from open position is not the same as the bolt carrier bouncing off the buffer at high cycling speeds. If you can slow down those speeds, the carrier may slow down to similar speeds as just dropping the bolt.

Just a theory of mine and I haven't tested it yet. I bet the bolt is coming forward faster than even a kinetic bullet puller, so it could be having an effect on seating depth.

 

[joel65]

My two guesses..
Something is lose.
Inconsistent cheek pressure.

 

[flyright]

I've found this problem will usually minimize within a couple hundred rounds on a new rifle. But, always hold the rifle with the same pressure while using a grip (as close to) the way you normally shoot and drop the carrier on the first round from that position.

 

[Subwrx300]

Good suggestions all around. It doesn't feel like my fundamentals are off but you but you never know. I was breaking position on each of the single rounds to load mag.

I'll check rifle over again to be sure nothing loose and experiment with loading pressure and cheek weld to see if that's helps.

Some days I HATE semi autos...

 

[Precision Underground]

A lot of times thinking “hey look at that good group” is enough to make shots fly out of the group. Very well could be something mechanical though.

 

[Subwrx300]

So practiced a bit today at longer range. Had much of the same but less pronounced.

Also had an AWESOME group at 1k with my 224V. 7 shots landed into 1/2 MOA at 1,056yds and 6 of 5 at just around a 1/4MOA. Average to Center of .18 MOA. I focused on relaxing shoulder and reducing forward pressure into more "body pressure" if that makes sense. I still had a few shots that crept up/left/down of intended impact but they seemed much less pronounced. Gotta love fundamentals!

Also went 4 for 7 at 875 from barricade standing, but that was brutal in terms of focus to time wind and crosshair; definitely need to get more barricade work in before next match.

Thanks for input to all that replied (@Wheres-Waldo , @jpgolffl , @flyright @joel65 , @lennyo3034 , @XLR308 ).

 

[supratt96]

So practiced a bit today at longer range. Had much of the same but less pronounced.

Also had an AWESOME group at 1k with my 224V. 7 shots landed into 1/2 MOA at 1,056yds and 6 of 5 at just around a 1/4MOA. Average to Center of .18 MOA. I focused on relaxing shoulder and reducing forward pressure into more "body pressure" if that makes sense. I still had a few shots that crept up/left/down of intended impact but they seemed much less pronounced. Gotta love fundamentals!

View attachment 6929679

Also went 4 for 7 at 875 from barricade standing, but that was brutal in terms of focus to time wind and crosshair; definitely need to get more barricade work in before next match.

Thanks for input to all that replied (@Wheres-Waldo , @jpgolffl , @flyright @joel65 , @lennyo3034 , @XLR308 ).

Damn fine shooting! Especially with an AR.

What rifle are you shooting?

 

[Subwrx300]

Damn fine shooting! Especially with an AR.

What rifle are you shooting?

224 Valkyrie 26" Rainer Ultra Match Gen 2 barrel +3 gas system in an Aeroprecision M4E1 Enhanced upper lower set. Have a Sig Tango6 4-24 on it now though. Also have CMC 1-3 two stage trigger and JP SCS installed.

Don't get me wrong here: this gun shoots well but it won't do that "All Day Long". It's usually around .25 ATC (1/2-3/4MOA center to center). The stars aligned though and wind helped tighten things up a bit.

 

[Precision Underground]

So practiced a bit today at longer range. Had much of the same but less pronounced.

Also had an AWESOME group at 1k with my 224V. 7 shots landed into 1/2 MOA at 1,056yds and 6 of 5 at just around a 1/4MOA. Average to Center of .18 MOA. I focused on relaxing shoulder and reducing forward pressure into more "body pressure" if that makes sense. I still had a few shots that crept up/left/down of intended impact but they seemed much less pronounced. Gotta love fundamentals!

View attachment 6929679

Also went 4 for 7 at 875 from barricade standing, but that was brutal in terms of focus to time wind and crosshair; definitely need to get more barricade work in before next match.

Thanks for input to all that replied (@Wheres-Waldo , @jpgolffl , @flyright @joel65 , @lennyo3034 , @XLR308 ).

That’s kick ass man. I am plotting hard on a Valkyrie.

 

[Subwrx300]

That’s kick ass man. I am plotting hard on a Valkyrie.

I was SUPPPEERRR skeptical of the round vs a similar length 223 build. Built this and also rebarreled another AR to test against. In reality, there is a fairly large difference in performance giving an edge to the Valkyrie, as long as you do couple specific things to maximize the system:

1) longgg barrel - minimum 22" but I think 24-26" is better to max speeds.
2) heavy bullets - 80 VLD and up only
3) long load magazines - you need min 2.280 and ideally, 2.310"+ internal space to allow 88, 90 and 95gr seated close to lands.
4) tune the absolute S&!# out of it... Great trigger, adjustable gas block, SCS etc.
5) prepare for good to mediocre accuracy out of new brass... And retune the load for best precision in fired brass.

It will shoot super soft like a well tuned 223/556 and cycle flawlessly. I really don't have a need for my standard 223's anymore other than super lightweight builds or lighter loads for practice at less than 300-400 yards.

I was a huge skeptic but definitely an advantage if done right. Now I want to try a 220 Thunderbolt thanks to @padom or find a cool 6mm variant.

 

[Precision Underground]

I was SUPPPEERRR skeptical of the round vs a similar length 223 build. Built this and also rebarreled another AR to test against. In reality, there is a fairly large difference in performance giving an edge to the Valkyrie, as long as you do couple specific things to maximize the system:

1) longgg barrel - minimum 22" but I think 24-26" is better to max speeds.
2) heavy bullets - 80 VLD and up only
3) long load magazines - you need min 2.280 and ideally, 2.310"+ internal space to allow 88, 90 and 95gr seated close to lands.
4) tune the absolute S&!# out of it... Great trigger, adjustable gas block, SCS etc.
5) prepare for good to mediocre accuracy out of new brass... And retune the load for best precision in fired brass.

It will shoot super soft like a well tuned 223/556 and cycle flawlessly. I really don't have a need for my standard 223's anymore other than super lightweight builds or lighter loads for practice at less than 300-400 yards.

I was a huge skeptic but definitely an advantage if done right. Now I want to try a 220 Thunderbolt thanks to @padom or find a cool 6mm variant.

For sure if I do it it will be at least 22” and def be set up for heavy bullets. If not it’s just a hot 223. I have a 5.56 set up for accuracy and it works well so all I would need to do is barrel and bolt. I haven’t looked into mags at all. What mags are you using that are long?

 

[Subwrx300]

For sure if I do it it will be at least 22” and def be set up for heavy bullets. If not it’s just a hot 223. I have a 5.56 set up for accuracy and it works well so all I would need to do is barrel and bolt. I haven’t looked into mags at all. What mags are you using that are long?

I'm using PRI's they allow a realistic 2.305-2.308" but a few guys here have mentioned ASC will go out to 2.310-2.315". ASCs are a good deal cheaper (12-18 each I think) versus PRI at 30-40 each.

I have a few ASC 556 mags but they are rough on brass; they have fairly sharp edges. Can't say if their 6.8 mags are any different/better but the PRI mags are very smooth. No marks on brass at all and very slick feeling finish. Actually almost too slick because cartriges will slide forward a bit when loading mag and tip gets caught when pushing down next bullet. However they function perfectly so no complaints in use.

 

[XLR308]

I have both the PRI and ASC, the PRI are the Cadillac extremely well made but expensive and ASC are great mags but may need a little bit of fine tuning and adjustment.

Kind of like comparing AI AICS mags to aftermarket AICS both are great products but both may actually need a little fine tuning for best results, just depends on your bank account.

 

[mike_adams]

I've been taking a small hand file to my ACS mags and filing down the front about 1mm. I take a honing tool to the remaining edges. I'm getting them for $14 so I can't complain. I can run out to 2.300 with the ACS mags but am currently at 2.27 for my best groups with the 88 ELDs