off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

[bm11]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

To further elaborate on jbell's post- we also took a shooter with us who had never shot long range. He shot both my AIAX and jbell's TRG. His comment- while both are a capable platform, the AX made it easy.

Also, a few weeks back, jbell and I took my stepson shooting. He is 12, and has never shot a precision rifle before. He shot both my AX and jbell's TRG, and while he shot both well, he pointed out that the AX was easier to shoot.

It could be the Atlas with the buttspike on the AX vs the TRG bipod and rear bag, but bar none, the AX is just plain easy to shoot. I have also owned an AW and a TRG folder, and I can say that seriously, you will do no wrong with either platform (especially compared to a Remington) but that money aside, the AI is THE rifle.

 

[Vin]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is NOTHING that an AI can do that a TRG cannot except cost you more money. There is NO benefit the AI has over the TRG.

Lest we forget the TRG was a purpose built rifle built in a Scandinavian country for some of the world most harshest conditions. Remember Finland is in the Arctic circle. Accuracy International build a rifle for Arctic conditions. Sako builds a rifle for every day conditions in the Arctic Circle.

Now if you're worried about scratching your custom duracoat, or changing your skins to match your Tacticool gear, then maybe switchable skins is for you.

But ask yourself, what is the functional purpose of removable skins? Possibly to be replaced when they break? </div></div>


If you are referring to my post before yours, I think you misunderstood what I was talking about. I couldn't give shit about scratching the finish or changing sides to match anything. What I meant again was that due to the design of the stock/chassis of the AI it, can take more abuse and less prone to damage that would render the rifle out of service. By the way its alot easier to replace a side panel on an AI if it were to break that if the stock were to go tits up on the TRG. Don't get me wrong, I own both and I am issued an AI for work.Both are outstanding rifles, however I have never seen broken or cracked side panels but did see a cracked stock on a TRG.

 

[Mike]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">While I completely respect you mike, I whole heartedly disagree. The AI system allows you to order a barrel and install it at home, the TRG does not. My personal TRG's trigger failed from grit getting into it (I eventually fixed it on my own) I have not heard of this happening on an AI.

Finally, I have heard stories of TRG's bolt handles breaking off in the field, not so with the AI.

The TRG is the best rifle for the money, IMO. The AI is the best rifle, money aside, IMO.</div></div>

BM11, we can have a civil discussion and disagree, but let me point out where I don't agree with you.

You can switch the TRG barrel, all you need is an action wrench and go/no go gauge. KRG sells the action wrench.

First, nothing is impervious to issues, even the sacred AI. You're trigger issue may be an isolated incident. I've never heard of anyone having trouble with a TRG trigger and the TRG triggers have the reputation of being one of, if not the, nicest out there.

And this is not personal BM11, but this thread is the first I've heard of "TRG handles breaking off in the field" and I've been a TRG fan since the mid 90s.

 

[hyena74]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Market Garden</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aimsmall55</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also, with the spst try 17 shots that measured .76" Have you ever considered that maybe I know what I am doing at the reloading table? Or are you just too busy criticizing the "good old boy" who you consider inferior because they are just trying to learn. By the way I do have a high end rifle gap crusader.... jerk</div></div>

I don't think you get it. Nobody is saying that the Remingtons or Savages aren't accurate. The issue is with durability and function in adverse conditions. </div></div>

what kinda problems, if any, do the 700's have in adverse conditions? extraction? feeding?

 

[Mike]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To further elaborate on jbell's post- we also took a shooter with us who had never shot long range. He shot both my AIAX and jbell's TRG. His comment- while both are a capable platform, the AX made it easy.

Also, a few weeks back, jbell and I took my stepson shooting. He is 12, and has never shot a precision rifle before. He shot both my AX and jbell's TRG, and while he shot both well, he pointed out that the AX was easier to shoot.

It could be the Atlas with the buttspike on the AX vs the TRG bipod and rear bag, but bar none, the AX is just plain easy to shoot. I have also owned an AW and a TRG folder, and I can say that seriously, you will do no wrong with either platform (especially compared to a Remington) but that money aside, the AI is THE rifle.</div></div>

Now this post. "Easier to shoot" is completely misleading. He liked the AX more, OK, he felt more comfortable behind it, roger that. But his opinion in no way reflects the quality of the rifles. Fit and comfort have zero to do with quality.

 

[Mike]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nflder</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you are referring to my post before yours, I think you misunderstood what I was talking about. I couldn't give shit about scratching the finish or changing sides to match anything. </div></div>

No, it was coincidence and timing.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nflder</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What I meant again was that due to the design of the stock/chassis of the AI it, can take more abuse and less prone to damage that would render the rifle out of service. By the way its alot easier to replace a side panel on an AI if it were to break that if the stock were to go tits up on the TRG. Don't get me wrong, I own both and I am issued an AI for work.Both are outstanding rifles, however I have never seen broken or cracked side panels but did see a cracked stock on a TRG. </div></div>

Give me an example of what would damage a TRG stock making it inoperable but not an AI? As addressed the TRG had a metal frame just like the AI so I would think anything that would render a TRG useless would do the same to said AI. If I broke a chunk of stock off the TRG and the frame was not damaged, it would still be fine.

 

[taterxl]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

AI or a TRG would be my pick. Cant go wrong with either one. But best bang for your buck would be a TRG in my opinion.

 

[z-man]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

As the Heyena's Rem 700 question, my Agency issued them and we still have some floating around. I have seen in person two Remington 700 bolt handles break off and 3 extractors go belly up. The bolt handle is known thing and any good smith fixes it at the get go. The extractor is bummer in the field as you need a special tool to replace it as it is riveted in I believe, so no easy fix.

I am looking to upgrade. I have a FN XP PBR with a Mcmillan but I am looking for a folder with a shorter barrel.

Be safe all. Z

 

[texasleftychef]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

The attached pic is from my TRG-22 which cracked about two weeks ago. It's currently at Beretta being inspected and I hope replaced.

I thought I might chime in and answer Mo's questions from my dismantlement procedure.

A) I don't know
B) It does have a sort of internal aluminum skeleton in it which is hard for me to describe. I'll take some picture when I get the new piece and put all back together. After taking the gun apart, I think that if I was forced to use it in the condition in the picture that it would have probably worked... That being said though, you could apply pressure to that part of the gun and see the crack widen and come back to together. Not much but still some. I don't know how that would affect accuracy but it can't be ideal I don't think.
C) It was much easier to take apart than I would have thought. You just remove the allen screw right behind the bolt and it pretty much just comes off. Beretta also had me strip the butt stock to simply the piece that was cracked and that wasn't too difficult either. I don't know if makes then interchangeable though.

This may all be common knowledge but I hope it helped some.

Eric.

 

[Mike]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Without casting dispersions, but simply out of my own ignorance:

A) I have been under the impression that while a TRG is a less expensive platform initially, some of the other costs make it close to what an AI is - it that correct?

<span style="font-weight: bold">Not entirely. There isn't a specific "TRG" accessory that you have to use. Most will say the mags however with that being said there are two options. One, you can get the KRG AICS conversion kit. Two, I have three TRG mags and didn't get any of them new and paid less than $150 for them. Other than the mags, you don't require a single TRG accessory.</span>

B) I have seen a few pictures and read a few more tales of folks that have broken the TRG stocks - particularly the fixed model. In fact there was a post about this just last week complete with a photo. Now I think I just read above that the TRG has an AL frame - so when you see a photo like that or read about it - are we really only talking about a cosmetic issue?

<span style="font-weight: bold">This is not personal against you but I do not believe the internet stories about all these stock breaks. I am not an engineer for Sako however in my experience with TRGs I would say that is cosmetic. TRG's have a metal frame that bolts to the main section right behind the trigger. </span>

C) Can a user swap out parts themselves on a TRG as easily as a AI? Do the parts swap in between multiple TRGs like AIs do?

<span style="font-weight: bold">Yes to the first part. I don't know what you're asking for the second.
</span>



Good luck</div></div>

 

[Bazgab]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChrisF</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Their are things a 308 AW has over the TRG-22 , the main one for me concerns the magazines , the AW runs a excellent double stack , double feed & to me is a much better mag .
The Sako TRGs in 308 run a double stack , single feed posn mag , much like a old subgun mag , and in my experiance has not been as reliable in operation , I had a brand new mag that I could never get to feed at all on my TRG .</div></div>

TRG has the advantage in that the mag does not stick out really far like the 10 round AI mags. Guess your feeding problem could happen to anyone but I have never had a feeding problem with my Sako mags, always smooth as can be.

Also about the cracked TRG stocks, I saw in the other thread that someone mentioned there was a bad batch and that it was not a common issue. Like Mike said, I am pretty sure it would be purely cosmetic and not affect the firing of the rifle though it sure does suck. The accessories are expensive but finding them used is a good way to pick some up as was mentioned earlier, I got the TRG bipod in very nice condition used for around 50% of the normal price.

 

[texasleftychef]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Without casting dispersions, but simply out of my own ignorance:

A) I have been under the impression that while a TRG is a less expensive platform initially, some of the other costs make it close to what an AI is - it that correct?

<span style="font-weight: bold">Not entirely. There isn't a specific "TRG" accessory that you have to use. Most will say the mags however with that being said there are two options. One, you can get the KRG AICS conversion kit. Two, I have three TRG mags and didn't get any of them new and paid less than $150 for them. Other than the mags, you don't require a single TRG accessory.</span>

B) I have seen a few pictures and read a few more tales of folks that have broken the TRG stocks - particularly the fixed model. In fact there was a post about this just last week complete with a photo. Now I think I just read above that the TRG has an AL frame - so when you see a photo like that or read about it - are we really only talking about a cosmetic issue?

<span style="font-weight: bold">This is not personal against you but I do not believe the internet stories about all these stock breaks. I am not an engineer for Sako however in my experience with TRGs I would say that is cosmetic. TRG's have a metal frame that bolts to the main section right behind the trigger. </span>

C) Can a user swap out parts themselves on a TRG as easily as a AI? Do the parts swap in between multiple TRGs like AIs do?

<span style="font-weight: bold">Yes to the first part. I don't know what you're asking for the second.
</span>



Good luck</div></div> </div></div>

Do you not believe me that the gun cracked? And that it flexed in right that point when pressure was applied? I agree that it might just be cosmetic, but in limited knowledge, it seems a pretty critical area of the stock. From my experience in the last two weeks, it's happened to more people than have spoken up as well.

Don't get me wrong on this either, I love my TRG and I would buy another in a second unless Beretta does me wrong on this. I just want to share my experience.

Eric.

 

[Mike]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: texasleftychef</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Do you not believe me that the gun cracked? And that it flexed in right that point when pressure was applied? I agree that it might just be cosmetic, but in limited knowledge, it seems a pretty critical area of the stock. From my experience in the last two weeks, it's happened to more people than have spoken up as well.

Don't get me wrong on this either, I love my TRG and I would buy another in a second unless Beretta does me wrong on this. I just want to share my experience.

Eric.</div></div>

No, I wasn't referring to your rifle at all. You have proof of your rifle. I was referring to the "read a few more tales of folks that have broken the TRG stocks" line. Whenever discussions come up like this, there's always an "I heard" faction that lends nothing to the conversation (again, not your story here.

From a contact I called there are reports of a bad batch of stocks and I believe you referred to this in your original post. But those are being taken care of as I'm sure you will see.

But on that note I know no one will come in here and say AI's have never had a problem. Ask anyone that had an AI in the 90s when they were going through bankruptcy. Wasn't pretty. But everyone has issues, they corrected it and moved forward.

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
No, I wasn't referring to your rifle at all. You have proof of your rifle. I was referring to the "read a few more tales of folks that have broken the TRG stocks" line. Whenever discussions come up like this, there's always an "I heard" faction that lends nothing to the conversation (again, not your story here.
</div></div>

Mike - I have read every one of those tales - here, on this site - since I have been here.

<span style="font-style: italic">Do the parts swap in between multiple TRGs like AIs do?</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Yes to the first part. I don't know what you're asking for the second.</span>

For the second part - If Bob pulls a bolt / barrel / extractor / you name it off of Bob's TRG - and installs it on John's TRG - does it drop right in like an AI?


Good luck

 

[10thMTN155]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

Hey Mike, since I don't know as much as most, but still try my ass off, what problems do you think I will have, if any, with the Remmy XCR Tactical I bought while I was over here. I am replacing the stock, bedding of course and a few other things such as brake and good glass, but what do you think I may run into? Not sure if you have any experience with this gun or not, but anything can help. It's not supposed to be a cheaper Remington and I think I will love it for my practical applications which involve shooting with my brother at my place. (happen to have the luxury of being able to shoot about 1,900 meters, just 5 steps from my back door) Also, I want to be able to smoke hogs out of our soybeans and corn from about 800 meters. This gun is chambered in .300 winnie.
Oh and by the way, you are a jerk...just kidding, don't kick me off.
Any advice from anyone will help.

 

[Mike]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Mike - I have read every one of those tales - here, on this site - since I have been here.

<span style="font-style: italic">Do the parts swap in between multiple TRGs like AIs do?</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Yes to the first part. I don't know what you're asking for the second.</span>

For the second part - If Bob pulls a bolt / barrel / extractor / you name it off of Bob's TRG - and installs it on John's TRG - does it drop right in like an AI?


Good luck</div></div>

Mo, I just haven't seen those stories here. And I watch out for the TRG stuff.

To answer your question my understanding is yes, but I cannot state it as fact.

 

[Mike]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 10thMTNFSO</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey Mike, since I don't know as much as most, but still try my ass off, what problems do you think I will have, if any, with the Remmy XCR Tactical I bought while I was over here. I am replacing the stock, bedding of course and a few other things such as brake and good glass, but what do you think I may run into? Not sure if you have any experience with this gun or not, but anything can help. It's not supposed to be a cheaper Remington and I think I will love it for my practical applications which involve shooting with my brother at my place. (happen to have the luxury of being able to shoot about 1,900 meters, just 5 steps from my back door) Also, I want to be able to smoke hogs out of our soybeans and corn from about 800 meters. This gun is chambered in .300 winnie.
Oh and by the way, you are a jerk...just kidding, don't kick me off.
Any advice from anyone will help.</div></div>

Although I don't have experience specifically with the XCR, it's still a Remington M700 with a 40x trigger. Put a scope on it and shoot it. The rifle will tell you what you need. It should do what you ask of it if all you're doing is plinking and slaying some hogs.

Put some good glass on it, buy a couple of cases of match ammo and go.

 

[jasonk]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

Don't listen to Mike, AI's rock, he just hates the British so he refuses to admit it.

 

[netranger6]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

Netranger, come on... you're a better guy than this. Your post was completely irrelevant and had nothing to do with an off the shelf rifle. Go make another post.

 

[bm11]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

Mike,

I researched the subject heavily when I had my TRG, even bought a take off barrel to use, and the concensus was no- it's not just a matter of torquing the new barrel on like it is with an AI. You may get lucky and the two guns headspace exactly the same, but it may require smithing to headspace properly as well. I am no gunsmith and I don't recall the reasons why, but it had to do with where the TRG headspaced off from. So- you can certainly switch barrels at home if the other barrels were made for your gun, and you may even get lucky and purchase a barrel and have it headspace properly, but it is not standardized like AI is and therefore can't be considered to have the same benefit.

As for the trigger- it isn't isolated. I found another thread from a few years back on here with a similar issue, and had someone PM me with their issue as well. Luckily, in my case it had only malfunctioned and not broken, but still, I stand by my statement that I have never heard of an AI trigger failing.

Finally- you said you have never heard of a stock failing? Didn't you just say yesterday in the TRG folder thread that you had a Gen 1 folder fail on YOU?

 

[Mike]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mike,

I researched the subject heavily when I had my TRG, even bought a take off barrel to use, and the concensus was no- it's not just a matter of torquing the new barrel on like it is with an AI. You may get lucky and the two guns headspace exactly the same, but it may require smithing to headspace properly as well. I am no gunsmith and I don't recall the reasons why, but it had to do with where the TRG headspaced off from. So- you can certainly switch barrels at home if the other barrels were made for your gun, and you may even get lucky and purchase a barrel and have it headspace properly, but it is not standardized like AI is and therefore can't be considered to have the same benefit.

As for the trigger- it isn't isolated. I found another thread from a few years back on here with a similar issue, and had someone PM me with their issue as well. Luckily, in my case it had only malfunctioned and not broken, but still, I stand by my statement that I have never heard of an AI trigger failing.

Finally- you said you have never heard of a stock failing? Didn't you just say yesterday in the TRG folder thread that you had a Gen 1 folder fail on YOU?</div></div>

Bob, I'm not going to argue with you.

Don't try and take something out of context to make your point. When I mentioned about the TRG stock failing, I was talking about the folder. The discussion in the posts above was not about the folder but rather the fixed stock. It's apples and oranges.

Now, I'm done with all the AI bandwagoners coming up with all the prolific TRG failure stories and their precious AIs are without fault.

 

[hyena74]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mike,

I researched the subject heavily when I had my TRG, even bought a take off barrel to use, and the concensus was no- it's not just a matter of torquing the new barrel on like it is with an AI. You may get lucky and the two guns headspace exactly the same, but it may require smithing to headspace properly as well. I am no gunsmith and I don't recall the reasons why, but it had to do with where the TRG headspaced off from. So- you can certainly switch barrels at home if the other barrels were made for your gun, and you may even get lucky and purchase a barrel and have it headspace properly, but it is not standardized like AI is and therefore can't be considered to have the same benefit.

As for the trigger- it isn't isolated. I found another thread from a few years back on here with a similar issue, and had someone PM me with their issue as well. Luckily, in my case it had only malfunctioned and not broken, but still, I stand by my statement that I have never heard of an AI trigger failing.

Finally- you said you have never heard of a stock failing? Didn't you just say yesterday in the TRG folder thread that you had a Gen 1 folder fail on YOU? </div></div>

i did extensive research before i bought my trg and read up on them for literally over a year.

the only trigger problems i ever remember running across was with people who tried to adjust them to light. something about the design and trying to make them to light jacked up unit. other that that, ive never ran across a problem that was trigger related.

 

[bm11]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hyena74</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

i did extensive research before i bought my trg and read up on them for literally over a year.

the only trigger problems i ever remember running across was with people who tried to adjust them to light. something about the design and trying to make them to light jacked up unit. other that that, ive never ran across a problem that was trigger related. </div></div>my trigger issue ended up being that some locktite crud or lube got into the wrong place. Finally after a dissassembly and thorough lighter fluid roughing, it came out of it. It was doing a similar thing though- locking up every now and again when the bolt was closed.

 

[Mike]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">my trigger issue ended up being that some locktite crud or lube got into the wrong place. Finally after a dissassembly and thorough lighter fluid roughing, it came out of it. It was doing a similar thing though- locking up every now and again when the bolt was closed.</div></div>

Bob, how did that lock tite or lube get in there? I don't recall Sako putting either in their triggers. If I put locktite in an AI trigger would it fail too?

 

[bm11]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Bob, I'm not going to argue with you.

Don't try and take something out of context to make your point. When I mentioned about the TRG stock failing, I was talking about the folder. The discussion in the posts above was not about the folder but rather the fixed stock. It's apples and oranges.

Now, I'm done with all the AI bandwagoners coming up with all the prolific TRG failure stories and their precious AIs are without fault.

</div></div>Mike, I like you, but I find it highly ironic that you admit and dismiss your own stock breaking when the debate is about the ruggedness of the platform in question.

 

[Mike]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mike, I like you, but I find it highly ironic that you admit and dismiss your own stock breaking when the debate is about the ruggedness of the platform in question.</div></div>

Bob, I like you too. This is not personal.

But let me ask you a few questions.

Do you not find a difference between a metal, folding frame breaking vs. the poly outer covering cracking?

Can you prove the crack as seen in the pictures about was anything more than cosmetic?

Can you prove that AIs never have issues or will you force me to research the many issues they've had including:

the British firm of Accuracy International was placed in receivership due to a defective batch of rifles which were rejected by the British Army. It's not known whether the company will be able to continue production.

Yes, that's old news from 2005 but just goes to show AIs aren't perfect.

 

[Bacarrat]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

I had to send my TRG to the service center because of the trigger failed. There was no first stage, and the trigger pull was like 20lbs! I called to check on it today and it should be done and on the way back to me this week. This isn't the first time I have heard of the TRGs triggers failing. I had a friend that had the same thing happen to him and they replaced his trigger.

Another TRG trigger issue:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...274#Post1137274
I think there was another thread just this year about the TRG trigger failing, just that the search sucks!


While I do think it's pretty rare for the TRG triggers to fail, they can and do fail. A minor inconvience and is taken care quickly by the Beretta Service facilities. The only AI trigger that I have read failing is the one down at RO...but again, the rifle probably has 100k rounds through that action.

 

[bm11]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mike, I like you, but I find it highly ironic that you admit and dismiss your own stock breaking when the debate is about the ruggedness of the platform in question.</div></div>

Bob, I like you too. This is not personal.

But let me ask you a few questions.

Do you not find a difference between a metal, folding frame breaking vs. the poly outer covering cracking?
<span style="font-weight: bold">I thought your folding frame TRG broke? If so, this is a valid point, especially where the folding stock is suck a popular option on an AI, known for its ruggedness, and far more prevalent- far more folding stock AI's sold between the AE, AW, AICS, AX, etc, without an issue I have ever read of. Now in the pic above, if the pic is of the TRG skins cracked and not the underlying chassis, I agree that in that case, it is a superficial issue.</span>
Can you prove the crack as seen in the pictures about was anything more than cosmetic?
<span style="font-weight: bold">No, if it is only the skins and not the chassis, I will concede it is a minor superficial issue (other than the potential for injury due to pinching the skin under recoil. </span>
Can you prove that AIs never have issues or will you force me to research the many issues they've had including:

the British firm of Accuracy International was placed in receivership due to a defective batch of rifles which were rejected by the British Army. It's not known whether the company will be able to continue production.
<span style="font-weight: bold">Everything mechanical can break, and certainly 2005 being the year of their bankruptcy liquiadation would be a time that issues would more likely surface.</span>
Yes, that's old news from 2005 but just goes to show AIs aren't perfect. </div></div>above

 

[hyena74]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hyena74</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

i did extensive research before i bought my trg and read up on them for literally over a year.

the only trigger problems i ever remember running across was with people who tried to adjust them to light. something about the design and trying to make them to light jacked up unit. other that that, ive never ran across a problem that was trigger related. </div></div>my trigger issue ended up being that some locktite crud or lube got into the wrong place. Finally after a dissassembly and thorough lighter fluid roughing, it came out of it. It was doing a similar thing though- locking up every now and again when the bolt was closed. </div></div>

did you locktite in your trigger group or action screws?

 

[bm11]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hyena74</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

did you locktite in your trigger group or action screws? </div></div> The locktite was from the prior owner adjusting the trigger and setting the screws. It was set too light for me, when I adjusted it the dried locktite crumbled and got into the trigger mechanism somewhere. So in the TRG's defense, it was as a result of end user installed locktite and not something that happened at the factory. It is my belief that an AI trigger is such a simple design that it will run in just about every condition, but I have never "torture tested" mine to be able to tell you that for sure.

 

[TEAMSENDIT]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

we can comment all we want on the ai vs. trg thing, but at the end of the day these are two of the best built factory rifles made. It is no suprise they have very similar features.

3 lug action
2 stage trigger
aluminum chasis
fully adjustble stocks
great mag systems
great bipods

yes either one possibly could break but the odds of them totally taking a shit in civilian hands are pretty slim.

IT REALLY TRULY IS A WIN WIN IF YOU PICK EITHER ONE.

 

[bm11]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Team-Send-It!!!</div><div class="ubbcode-body">we can comment all we want on the ai vs. trg thing, but at the end of the day these are two of the best built factory rifles made. It is no suprise they have very similar features.

3 lug action
2 stage trigger
aluminum chasis
fully adjustble stocks
great mag systems
great bipods

yes either one possibly could break but the odds of them totally taking a shit in civilian hands are pretty slim.

IT REALLY TRULY IS A WIN WIN IF YOU PICK EITHER ONE. </div></div>This sums it up.

 

[mstennes]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is NOTHING that an AI can do that a TRG cannot except cost you more money. There is NO benefit the AI has over the TRG.

Lest we forget the TRG was a purpose built rifle built in a Scandinavian country for some of the world most harshest conditions. Remember Finland is in the Arctic circle. Accuracy International build a rifle for Arctic conditions. Sako builds a rifle for every day conditions in the Arctic Circle.

Now if you're worried about scratching your custom duracoat, or changing your skins to match your Tacticool gear, then maybe switchable skins is for you.

But ask yourself, what is the functional purpose of removable skins? Possibly to be replaced when they break? </div></div>

This, thats why I own two, a 308 and a 338.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aimsmall55</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also, with the spst try 17 shots that measured .76" Have you ever considered that maybe I know what I am doing at the reloading table? </div></div>

At what range? 25 yards?


If it's 100 yards or more I call "Bullshit".

Let me lay this out to you. Let me know what range you perform these feats at, because I want you to have the home field advantage. I will come to you and bring a $100. If you can put 20 rounds into a 1" circle at 100 yards with a factory SPS-T then I will let you walk away with the money. If you don't, it doesn't cost you anything.

The only catch is I am going to film it and upload it to the 'hide.

I totally don't expect you to take me up on it. No one ever does.

(however if you want to play with the big boys you need to toss it in the mug first)

 

[ArmaHeavy]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Now if you're worried about scratching your custom duracoat, or changing your skins to match your Tacticool gear, then maybe switchable skins is for you.

But ask yourself, what is the functional purpose of removable skins? Possibly to be replaced when they break? </div></div>

So if I made a kit that would let someone put a TRG stock on an AI, then would it be the #1 rifle in the world? Or should I put a TRG action into an AICS?

This argument could go on forever until either someone makes a hybrid apple-orange, or orange-apple, but it just keeps everyone from thinking about making a better banana.

 

[cavemanmoore]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

Just for fun

Not my rifle. And "extenuating" circumstances did exist. But for those who are crying because a couple TRG stocks broke....

LoneWolf, PM sent.

-Chris

 

[z-man]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

What were the circumstances?? Just curious?? AI AW 1.0 or 1.5?? Thanks Z

 

[Bacarrat]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

I think it converted itself to a 2.0..

 

[Mike]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bacarrat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think it converted itself to a 2.0..</div></div>

FTW

 

[MinorDamage]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Team-Send-It!!!</div><div class="ubbcode-body">we can comment all we want on the ai vs. trg thing, but at the end of the day these are two of the best built factory rifles made. It is no suprise they have very similar features.

3 lug action
2 stage trigger
aluminum chasis
fully adjustble stocks
great mag systems
great bipods

yes either one possibly could break but the odds of them totally taking a shit in civilian hands are pretty slim.

IT REALLY TRULY IS A WIN WIN IF YOU PICK EITHER ONE. </div></div>

Thanks for getting the thread back on track. Go shoot either. Neither is perfect but they are both damn close. You will know which one feels better if you can shoot them both.

Josh

 

[steve123]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jayph</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know there are a ton of great smiths out there that can build you what ever you want but, I was wondering what are my options for off the shelf rifles. I put together this list, is there any other guns that deserve a look?

Sako TRG-22
AI AW308
AI AX308
Dessert Tactical Arms SRS
Prarie Gun Works Coyote

I will look them over and try to find the best one for me as Iam sure they are all top shelf. Just curious if there are any others that I should be considering.

Thanks

Jason </div></div>

The guys at Surgeon have some rifles they can grab "off the shelf"

and ship ASAP if you're in a hurry and more than a few can be had next week in various configurations.I still keep coming back to the Surgeon 591 action.I just like them because the Picattiny 20 MOA rail is integral so that's one less thing you don't have to worry about coming loose.The extra metal stiffens the action as well.The recoil lug is also part of the action.They are very smooth and have that traditional bolt gun feel.

I'm pretty sure you'd be more than happy with any of the rifles on your list if they felt right to you.If you could get behind some of them it would help in the decision making process.How a rifle feels to you makes a huge difference sometimes.For instance,I've seen guys here on the Hide buy AIAW's that couldn't get used to how they feel and sell them a month later at a loss.

There are other things to consider.I'll mention some of my personal prefences.They may or may not apply to you.What I like doesn't matter to you but getting the rifle that suits your personal preferences does.

The last couple years weight has become more of an issue for me as I'm half a century old now.I don't want to shoot a 19lb rifle icluding scope offhand ever again,LOL or lug the damn thing around for that matter.So I chose a medium weight barrel instead of heavy and bought a lighter scope with alluminum/titanium rings also.I prefer 1.5 lb single stage triggers,fully adjustable stocks,longish barrels-26".Those are some of things to think about.You get the picture here.

I think you could add the Tubb 2000 to your list as well.

 

[wiganbear]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bazgab</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChrisF</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Their are things a 308 AW has over the TRG-22 , the main one for me concerns the magazines , the AW runs a excellent double stack , double feed & to me is a much better mag .
The Sako TRGs in 308 run a double stack , single feed posn mag , much like a old subgun mag , and in my experiance has not been as reliable in operation , I had a brand new mag that I could never get to feed at all on my TRG .</div></div>

TRG has the advantage in that the mag does not stick out really far like the 10 round AI mags. Guess your feeding problem could happen to anyone but I have never had a feeding problem with my Sako mags, always smooth as can be.

Also about the cracked TRG stocks, I saw in the other thread that someone mentioned there was a bad batch and that it was not a common issue. Like Mike said, I am pretty sure it would be purely cosmetic and not affect the firing of the rifle though it sure does suck. The accessories are expensive but finding them used is a good way to pick some up as was mentioned earlier, I got the TRG bipod in very nice condition used for around 50% of the normal price. </div></div>

I presume this thread has turned into an AW v TRG thread rather than just AI v TRG. The AW mag does not stick out any more than a TRG mag does, I think you mean the AICS 10 round mag.

 

[Mike]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wiganbear</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I presume this thread has turned into an AW v TRG thread rather than just AI v TRG. The AW mag does not stick out any more than a TRG mag does, I think you mean the AICS 10 round mag.</div></div>

Actually that's not quite true. Although the AW mag does not stick out too far, it does stick out. The TRG mag sits flush with the stock.

 

[hyena74]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve123</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jayph</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know there are a ton of great smiths out there that can build you what ever you want but, I was wondering what are my options for off the shelf rifles. I put together this list, is there any other guns that deserve a look?

Sako TRG-22
AI AW308
AI AX308
Dessert Tactical Arms SRS
Prarie Gun Works Coyote

I will look them over and try to find the best one for me as Iam sure they are all top shelf. Just curious if there are any others that I should be considering.

Thanks

Jason </div></div>

The guys at Surgeon have some rifles they can grab "off the shelf"

and ship ASAP if you're in a hurry and more than a few can be had next week in various configurations.I still keep coming back to the Surgeon 591 action.I just like them because the Picattiny 20 MOA rail is integral so that's one less thing you don't have to worry about coming loose.The extra metal stiffens the action as well.The recoil lug is also part of the action.They are very smooth and have that traditional bolt gun feel.

I'm pretty sure you'd be more than happy with any of the rifles on your list if they felt right to you.If you could get behind some of them it would help in the decision making process.How a rifle feels to you makes a huge difference sometimes.For instance,I've seen guys here on the Hide buy AIAW's that couldn't get used to how they feel and sell them a month later at a loss.

There are other things to consider.I'll mention some of my personal prefences.They may or may not apply to you.What I like doesn't matter to you but getting the rifle that suits your personal preferences does.

The last couple years weight has become more of an issue for me as I'm half a century old now.I don't want to shoot a 19lb rifle icluding scope offhand ever again,LOL or lug the damn thing around for that matter.So I chose a medium weight barrel instead of heavy and bought a lighter scope with alluminum/titanium rings also.I prefer 1.5 lb single stage triggers,fully adjustable stocks,longish barrels-26".Those are some of things to think about.You get the picture here.

I think you could add the Tubb 2000 to your list as well.

</div></div>
those surgeons sure are nice...but do you think they are built to "tight" for field use?

 

[Mike]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I think you could add the Tubb 2000 to your list as well.

</div></div>

Steve,
Let me tell you why your post is silly. First, your little wink doesn't mean that a Surgeon built rifle is "off the shelf". All you do is side track the original question into an entirely different topic the OP was not interested in. I can relate to your happiness with Surgeon but lets keep this on track.

Next, Surgeons are great and I've owned more than one however they are not dirty, field grade rifles and they do not have many of the features the others do.

Finally, the Tubb2000 is a joke for a field rifle. Talk about delicate, have you seen the bolt handle on that thing? I could yank it off after a strong cup of coffee let alone in the field.

 

[wiganbear]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wiganbear</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I presume this thread has turned into an AW v TRG thread rather than just AI v TRG. The AW mag does not stick out any more than a TRG mag does, I think you mean the AICS 10 round mag.</div></div>

Actually that's not quite true. Although the AW mag does not stick out too far, it does stick out. The TRG mag sits flush with the stock. </div></div>

Yes but nowhere near as the AICS 10 round mag

 

[Mike]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wiganbear</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Yes but nowhere near as the AICS 10 round mag

</div></div>

That is true. That's why I prefer to run the TRG mags in my TRG rather than the AICS mags. (yes, the will fit and function with the KRG kit).

 

[Mike]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

I think I'll have GAP put a TRG barreled action in an AICS and an AE action in a TRG stock and watch the black hole form.

 

[-=boone=-]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

Wow, you learn something knew every day. Hell I'm trying to figure out how to order my AI AE. To many options...

 

[hyena74]

Re: off the shelf tactical rifles (high end)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think I'll have GAP put a TRG barreled action in an AICS and an AE action in a TRG stock and watch the black hole form. </div></div>

just keep working on tom manners to inlet a t2 or t4 for the trg