Ok, all this reading on sizing and head space and shoulder bump has my head spinning...

[bruddah]

I've loaded probably about 1,000 or so rounds of .223 (AR 15), and I have gotten some great results as far as accuracy goes, but I'm finding I really don't know squat about the process of proper die set up for getting the most out of my brass life.

The more I read the more I realize I don't know squat.

I've reloaded pistol for close to 25 years, but just started for rifle within about the last 10 months or so.

So far I've just used an RCBS AR die (small based die) and turned down the die till it cams over and called it good.

I am about to embark on .308 precision long range loading (Savage model 10 FP SR) and want to make sure I get it right from the start.

I currently have 400 rounds of virgin Lapua brass and want to make sure I do everything right from the start.

Do I HAVE to fire form the brass first? How else do I make sure I am adjusting the die to the correct headspace? I don't want to work up a load only to have it change the 2nd time I load for this gun with fire formed brass.

Right now I have the RCBS X-dies which should limit neck growth after it's properly set up.

Any and all help GREATLY appreciated!

 

[bigedp51]

Get a Hornady Cartridge Case Headspace Gauge and measure your fired cases and then set your dies up for minimum shoulder bump. Meaning bump the shoulders back using this thumb rule, .001 to .002 for a bolt action and .003 to .004 on a semi-auto.

You do not need to fireform your brass unless your dealing with an older rifle with excess headspace or forming cases from other calibers.

Below are two shell holders, the shell holder on the right is a standard #10 RCBS shell holder for the .223/5.56. The black shell holder is a Redding custom shell holder and has a +.004 stamped on its top. I use this shell holder and my RCBS small base AR die like yours to resize my AR brass. Most AR15 rifles have their headspace set at approximately the SAAMI NO-GO headspace range and letting the die touch the standard height shell holder with the press reaching cam over will over resize the case and shorten its life span.

The Redding set contains five shell holders starting .002 to .010 taller than a standard shell holder. I prefer using them because I want the die to contact the shell holder during die setup to help center the die in the press. You can do the same thing with a set of feeler gauges placed between the die and the shell holder as spacers during die setup.

Buy the Hornady cartridge case headspace gauge and make your life simple, it also gives you the advantage of only needing to buy just this one gauge, and not having to buy a gauge for each caliber.

I now use all my Wilson type gauges as pen holders and paper weights. (gauge humor)

 

[BuzzBoss915]

I've loaded probably about 1,000 or so rounds of .223 (AR 15), and I have gotten some great results as far as accuracy goes, but I'm finding I really don't know squat about the process of proper die set up for getting the most out of my brass life.

The more I read the more I realize I don't know squat.

I've reloaded pistol for close to 25 years, but just started for rifle within about the last 10 months or so.

So far I've just used an RCBS AR die (small based die) and turned down the die till it cams over and called it good.

I am about to embark on .308 precision long range loading (Savage model 10 FP SR) and want to make sure I get it right from the start.

I currently have 400 rounds of virgin Lapua brass and want to make sure I do everything right from the start.

Do I HAVE to fire form the brass first? How else do I make sure I am adjusting the die to the correct headspace? I don't want to work up a load only to have it change the 2nd time I load for this gun with fire formed brass.

Right now I have the RCBS X-dies which should limit neck growth after it's properly set up.

Any and all help GREATLY appreciated!

I understand your confusion and I think it is magnified because of the entry level problems being discussed in this forum on a regular basis. Handgun reloading has it's own peculiarities like expanding the mouth and heavy crimping, and the delicate method of head spacing on the case mouth as in a 45ACP.

To answer the first question, it is almost never necessary to "fireform" virgin brass. I own a half a dozen Ackley's that require true "fireforming" but most factory chamberings and the available brass for these rifles do not require this. Many people, (however) including myself "resize" new brass before loading but that is an optional thing, kinda like cleaning primer pockets. Some people create additional steps and other people see them as unnecessary. Pick your poison.

After you have fired your first load is when you have a "fireformed" case and that's when properly adjusting your die is important. I don't shoot 308 enough to know if trimming necks is a problem, but if it is, I would be mildly surprised. Trimming to length is more normally associated with chamberings like 220 Swift, or 270 Winchester and it's due to the gentle sloping shoulder and relatively high operating pressure. Whereas, the 308 has a relatively sharp shoulder which should limit case stretching with reasonable pressure loads.

As far as your dialed in load becoming worthless with the 2nd firing; I don't believe this is a serious concern. The internal volume will have changed so little as to make another load workup unnecessary for all but....a few.

I wouldn't worry about how much you know, it's a learning curve and you have to start at the beginning like everybody else. What you learn is on demand, as you perceive a need; walk before you run. There may be a stumble along the way but you can't avoid it by assuming that you know everything before you start. So, don't over think it. BB

 

[Ridgerunner665]

In an AR, I just full length size them and call it good...

In a bolt gun, I also full length size...but I size them to zero headspace.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

 

[Pinecone]

If you are shooting one AR, you can reduce the brass working by bumping the shoulder back 3 - 5 thousandths. But if you load for several, you need to find the one with the shorted chamber and bump back the same 3 - 5 from THAT measurement. Or, just size to fit the case gauge, so the rounds fit any rifle.

 

[flashhole]

Some good info here but I will add my two cents.

Repeatable accuracy will require three things, 1) consistency round to round 2) optimization of the components 3) best possible axial alignment of the bullet to the bore.

They only way to guarantee consistency is to use fireformed brass and process them all the same way. True, you don't have to fireform new brass to use them and make them go bang, but fireforming is one variable that can be controlled for consistency.

Even new guns can (and do) have excessive headspace from time to time and brass stretching is not limited by the angle of the shoulder slope on the cartridge. If there is a gap (large or small) the brass is going to stretch to fill the gap regardless of the shoulder configuration.

A runout gage will help you tweak your process for maximum axial alignment.

 

[kansas]

For virgin Lapua brass, size the neck ONLY then do same for at least the first 3-4 times fired until the bolt starts to get harder to close THEN bump the shoulder back. No need to full length resize yet. I don't find any need to bump or full length resize new brass. For neck sizing pick your die company but don't think that the Redding or Forster neck dies work any better, or maybe not as good, as the Lee collet die (cheap). Neck sizing with a Lee collet die on Lapua brass keeps my runout near zero.

I've been experimenting with seeing how many times I can fire my Lapua brass before bumping the shoulder (neck sizing only with Lee collet die) and so far I know I can go at least 4 times in my Criterion barrel .308. I've also am experimenting with annealing same brass after 4 firings and so far (6 firings) I've yet to need to bump the shoulder and accuracy is same between annealed and not annealed. Actually my accuracy may be getting better with more firings without setting the shoulder back.

 

[flashhole]

+1 on the Lee Collet Neck Die.

 

[milo 2.0]

For virgin Lapua brass, size the neck ONLY then do same for at least the first 3-4 times fired until the bolt starts to get harder to close THEN bump the shoulder back. No need to full length resize yet. I don't find any need to bump or full length resize new brass.

This is good advice. BUT. I had C Dixon do 2 6.5x47's one day, one a rebarrel job, one a barrel setback, same reamer, same lathe, same day. So really, 2 new chambers. New Lapua brass for both, one I can get by neck sizing, the other, no way???
No hot loads, both under 2870 with 130's, no headspace issues.
I have 2-7mm saum's, same thing in those guns, one I can, one I can't. I can't explain it!

 

[kansas]

That's interesting. My bad. You should try chambering some of the brass first before loading it all It would suck to get it all loaded and then find out it wouldn't chamber.

 

[lte82]

Fire formed and neck sized only brass, which gives a headspace of 0 and makes your brass fit your specific chamber like a glove, will give you the best absolute shot to shot consistency and groupings.

I actually like taking once fired lake city brass (because 99.9% of the time they wont close on a tightly/properly headspaced bolt action rifle as the brass is stretched a good bit), sorted by weight, and incrementally turning the die 1/16 of a turn and test chambering until I get a perfect 0 headspace.

For an AR, I also just bump the brass back only until it chambers then I stop. Again, the closer to zero headspace you get the better.

 

[milo 2.0]

That's interesting. My bad. You should try chambering some of the brass first before loading it all It would suck to get it all loaded and then find out it wouldn't chamber.

If this is in response to my post, it's new brass and loaded rounds chamber fine, no problems. The same thing happened before, again from Dixon, same calibers, same actions, one Stiller, one trued Rem, the Rem one I can neck size, the Stiller I have to FL t's not an issue here, I have one neck die, separate fl dies, I do swap bushings, so I know what I'm up against and it's not a problem, unless I mix the brass, which has happened!!!!

 

[bruddah]

Thanks guys. I'm definitely taking this all in! Much appreciated! Sounds like with the virgin brass I'll just neck size and not worry about it!

If anybody else has any words of wisdom, please feel free. On the ARs, I just screwed the RCBS AR dies down till it crammed over and called it good. I have even worked up a couple of loads this way that get me 1/2 and sometimes less than 1/2 MOA groups @ 100 and 200 yards!

I'm excited to think I can get this bolt action .308 to do even better!!

 

[bruddah]

Oops I meant CAMMED over. NOT CRAMMED over... Lol

 

[leadbullet]

I simply screw in the die until the bolt closes on a sized case. Don't know about measuring all those last .001 and don't care, it is working fine for me and plenty accurate for F class and everything else.
Cheers

 

[Garyc]

Get the hornady headspace gauge set that BigEdp51 mentioned, it'll make setting up your dies much easier and eliminates all the guesswork. You can use the various other methods but the hornady gauges will let you know exactly how much your brass is being resized. I find they're invaluable.

 

[Fatelvis]

I simply screw in the die until the bolt closes on a sized case. Don't know about measuring all those last .001 and don't care, it is working fine for me and plenty accurate for F class and everything else.
Cheers

In my M1A I do this, but I remove the extractor when checking cases. I also just let the bolt slide down on a case and cam closed using gravity only. That way I know I'm not forcing it. I do, however, record the datum measurement for my records. Comparing THIS method and the "measuring and sizing to measurement method", yields about the same headspace results (.002-.003" in a clean chamber).

 

[bruddah]

Ok so I just took ownership of the Lee collet die today. Neck sized only 100 virgin Lapua .308 brass.

I think they were already tighter necks than what the Lee collet sizer was set up for.

Also, I got some vertical scratches on the necks of the sized brass where it goes up into the collet (think standing the case upright and seeing a vertical scratch on the neck on one side, almost the entire length of the neck). Any idea where these are coming from, or what's causing this?

 

[elfster1234]

It has me worried when you just "over cam it and call it good"..... That is not the way to reload. Seriously... Check this over if you haven't already.

http://www.snipershide.com/[email protected]

Thanks guys. I'm definitely taking this all in! Much appreciated! Sounds like with the virgin brass I'll just neck size and not worry about it!

If anybody else has any words of wisdom, please feel free. On the ARs, I just screwed the RCBS AR dies down till it crammed over and called it good. I have even worked up a couple of loads this way that get me 1/2 and sometimes less than 1/2 MOA groups @ 100 and 200 yards!

I'm excited to think I can get this bolt action .308 to do even better!!

 

[bruddah]

It has me worried when you just "over cam it and call it good"..... That is not the way to reload. Seriously... Check this over if you haven't already.

http://www.snipershide.com/[email protected]

I read your article, and agree. That is the way I USED to do it. I would probably try to just bump to the correct shoulder length from here on out. However, I cannot deny the fact that I could regularly get sub 1/2 MOA groups with the right hand-loads even doing it that way. Some of them in the .3XX range.

 

[bruddah]

Thanks again everyone who replied to my thread.

Lots of great help here.

 

[elfster1234]

Sounds good my friend. Thinking and knowing when it comes to headspace is the difference between being safe or dangerous reloading. You might be able to get away with zero headspace with a bolt action, but it doesnt fly with a semi auto. It can sometimes be too much info first starting out, but after a couple batches of ammo you will be right as rain.

I read your article, and agree. That is the way I USED to do it. I would probably try to just bump to the correct shoulder length from here on out. However, I cannot deny the fact that I could regularly get sub 1/2 MOA groups with the right hand-loads even doing it that way. Some of them in the .3XX range.

 

[bruddah]

Sounds good my friend. Thinking and knowing when it comes to headspace is the difference between being safe or dangerous reloading. You might be able to get away with zero headspace with a bolt action, but it doesnt fly with a semi auto. It can sometimes be too much info first starting out, but after a couple batches of ammo you will be right as rain.

Perhaps I didn't explain myself very well.
I didn't use zero headspace on the ARs. I was more than likely having excessive headspace because I just adjusted the die down till it touched the shell holder, and then turned it down a little further so that the press cammed over. This was how the directions that came with the dies said to do it.