Rifle Scopes Old man issues with reticle size and help selecting scopes

[DaveInGA]

I own two AR's I want to scope:

1. AR15, Home Build (Worked on M16's in the service, bought the right tools, did it right.) - Samson Evolution free float/mid-gas/1:8 twist/5.56 chamber/Rainier MedCon barrel/Gieselle Trigger

I feel like a 1-6X scope with a combo reticle for illuminated dot/mildot reticle should be plenty of scope. But I do have a concern with the reticle being too small for my aging eyes. A buddy my age (54) bought a Primary Arms 1-6X Scope with ACSS Reticle as a range toy and immediately found he couldn't read the numbers or see the dots on the cross hair, so he can't use the scope. I don't want to get stuck in his position.

I'd like to buy a scope with some kind of illuminated dot for close work, while having a mildot cross hair for extended range. I need the cross hair to be big enough for my aging eyes to see. I'm reasonably sure I don't need FFP for a scope of this magnification range and could save money not buying it. I'd like to keep the cost of the scope at about 30-35% the cost of the rifle. I would like tactical knobs if possible.

Expected range of use: Not more than the maximum effective killing range of the .223/5.56MM using bullet weights of 55-75 grains or anything that can be loaded to fit in a magazine. My estimate is that's about 600 meters give or take, with longer shots out to 800 meters possible, but not necessarily desirable. I hand load my own ammunition and am very familiar/comfortable with ballistics from my time shooting High Power. I'm guessing 1-6 may fit the bill, but wonder if my aging eyes need more magnification to see better at the longer ranges. I'll want to be sure of my target before squeezing the trigger.

2. Remington R-25/.308 Win caliber - Black color, not camo'ed/DPMS free float vented tube/Gieselle trigger/M16A1 buttstock.

Again, I'm hand loading and using 168 and 175 grain bullets to maximum on the barrel's 1:10 twist.

Expected maximum range of use is 1000 yards with most shots running much less than that. In this case, the rifle is being set up as a weapon, not a range toy.

Again, budget for scope is around 30-35% the cost of the rifle as it is set up now, so about $500.00 budget. I'm thinking mildot/mil/mil and either a fixed 10X or a 2.5-10X. I'm concerned with light gathering qualities of the scope in early morning/late evening situations.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,

Dave

 

[CRT2]

I'm 66 and have a Nikon M-223 AR Riflescope, 2-8 X 32 (BDC 600 Reticle) on my Daniel Defense M4V5. I shoot 75 grain Hornady. I have a Vortex Viper PST 4-16 X 50 EBR-1 MOA on my LMT MWS. I shoot Hornady 168 grain A-MAX. Both scopes and systems work for my old eyes. Didn't need first focal plane capability. Looked through many scopes before I selected these.

 

[BobinNC]

Rather than copying the reticle pictures, here is a link with numerous pictures of SWFA's 1-6x24 HD @1x and 6x. This is from an FFP MIL/MIL scope. Your eyesight would have to be on the level of Mr. Magoo not to be able to see and use this reticle @ 1X and @6x. Simply an outstanding design for low X FFP variable.

SWFA 1-6X24HD - The Optics Talk Forums - Page 1

Not cheap, but not a ridiculous price for what you get, IMHO.

 

[scudzuki]

Stay away from FFP optics below 10x.
You will use a 1-6 one of two ways;
at 1x for CQB situations where the subtensions don't mean $hit and
at 6x where you may use the reticle for holds.

At 1x my 20:20 vision can't use the subtensions on the 1-x FFP scopes I've used, a USO SR-8s and a Viper PST 1-4x.

Notice that Vortex went from an FFP in the first gen Razor (1-4x) to SFP for the gen II version. I think it was a wise decision.

Joe

 

[DaveInGA]

I'm 66 and have a Nikon M-223 AR Riflescope, 2-8 X 32 (BDC 600 Reticle) on my Daniel Defense M4V5. I shoot 75 grain Hornady. I have a Vortex Viper PST 4-16 X 50 EBR-1 MOA on my LMT MWS. I shoot Hornady 168 grain A-MAX. Both scopes and systems work for my old eyes. Didn't need first focal plane capability. Looked through many scopes before I selected these.

Thank you for providing your age. It helps a great deal, as I'm looking to buy scopes to use up to a point I'm no longer able to go into the field, which, based on my family's men, should be somewhere in my late seventies/early eighties. Both those scopes are reasonably priced and definitely worth looking at. While looking at the Nikon, I realized they now offer a .308 version of the .223 scope. Do you think the 308 version would be worth taking a look at? Also, do you find the BDC reticles limiting in any way?

 

[DaveInGA]

Rather than copying the reticle pictures, here is a link with numerous pictures of SWFA's 1-6x24 HD @1x and 6x. This is from an FFP MIL/MIL scope. Your eyesight would have to be on the level of Mr. Magoo not to be able to see and use this reticle @ 1X and @6x. Simply an outstanding design for low X FFP variable.

SWFA 1-6X24HD - The Optics Talk Forums - Page 1

Not cheap, but not a ridiculous price for what you get, IMHO.

Bob,

Thank you for the link. Unfortunately, my eyesight might very well be in the level with Mr. Magoo. I'm at around a 10/11 in correction. (Got measles as a kid, really did a number on my eye sight.) Wasn't a problem until I got old enough my eyes were too dry to wear contacts. Have really considered having eye surgery to correct, as I much prefer irons out to 600 yards. Why are most of the 1-6X scopes so expensive I'm wondering.

 

[TimK]

I'm 47, eyes are pretty good out long due to LASIK and poor up close.

Can you get the reticle in focus with the diopter adjustment? If so, it doesn't seem like the size of the reticle should matter. What am I missing?

You're going to run into cost issues with your list of wants, I think. You don't say how much the 5.56 rifle cost you, but I'll guess in the $1500 range. That puts you scope budget at $500ish, right? I don't think you're going to find a 1-6 in that price range.

I just bought a couple Vortex PST 1-4s for exactly the same use, and they seem to be quite a value. The illuminated reticle is daylight bright, and it's a true 1X so it's very fast up close. I chose the tactical style turrets so I could dial for elevation. I have no problem making hits on a fill size silhouette at 750. You can find these on the street for $440.

To get more power at that price, you'll have to give up the 1X at the bottom. There aren't even too many options in the 1.5-6 range, so you'll be stuck going to a 2-8 or 3-?.

My guess is you're going to have to relax your list of wants or increase your budget. If I were in your situation, I'd buy the vortex and start saving my allowance for a USO 1-8 down the road.

 

[CRT2]

Thank you for providing your age. It helps a great deal, as I'm looking to buy scopes to use up to a point I'm no longer able to go into the field, which, based on my family's men, should be somewhere in my late seventies/early eighties. Both those scopes are reasonably priced and definitely worth looking at. While looking at the Nikon, I realized they now offer a .308 version of the .223 scope. Do you think the 308 version would be worth taking a look at? Also, do you find the BDC reticles limiting in any way?

The NIKON 308 version is worth a look. Nikon has good optics - depends on your vision. BDC reticles do not limit my visibility or ability to use the scope. Some would consider them a little busy - I do not. I'm sure others on here who are younger or with better eyesight would recommend higher end scopes.

 

[DaveInGA]

Stay away from FFP optics below 10x.
You will use a 1-6 one of two ways;
at 1x for CQB situations where the subtensions don't mean $hit and
at 6x where you may use the reticle for holds.

At 1x my 20:20 vision can't use the subtensions on the 1-x FFP scopes I've used, a USO SR-8s and a Viper PST 1-4x.

Notice that Vortex went from an FFP in the first gen Razor (1-4x) to SFP for the gen II version. I think it was a wise decision.

Joe

Joe,

Kinda figured the FFP was a bit much on the lower end. Will a 1-6X scope provide all the magnification needed to get everything one can out of a 223/5.56 round? I'm thinking it is, but wanting to confirm.

I took a look through my buddy's scope I mentioned in my OP. Couldn't see the numbers at 6X, much less 1X. The 1x looked more like 1.1 to 1.3 to me and provided a pretty decent dot/upside down horseshoe to use for targeting at short range. If I could see that reticle, it would be a good one for .223/5.56 I am thinking.

I noticed Vortex did that. Wish I had the cash to buy one of those right now, but buying two scopes kinda puts me out of the range of spending what I want into spending about 1/3 of the cost of the rifle.

I like the looks of the Vortex PST 3.5-10 X 32 for the 308, but concerned about the FFP and my ability to see the reticle clearly at all magnification ranges.

 

[DaveInGA]

I'm 47, eyes are pretty good out long due to LASIK and poor up close.

Can you get the reticle in focus with the diopter adjustment? If so, it doesn't seem like the size of the reticle should matter. What am I missing?

You're going to run into cost issues with your list of wants, I think. You don't say how much the 5.56 rifle cost you, but I'll guess in the $1500 range. That puts you scope budget at $500ish, right? I don't think you're going to find a 1-6 in that price range.

I just bought a couple Vortex PST 1-4s for exactly the same use, and they seem to be quite a value. The illuminated reticle is daylight bright, and it's a true 1X so it's very fast up close. I chose the tactical style turrets so I could dial for elevation. I have no problem making hits on a fill size silhouette at 750. You can find these on the street for $440.

To get more power at that price, you'll have to give up the 1X at the bottom. There aren't even too many options in the 1.5-6 range, so you'll be stuck going to a 2-8 or 3-?.

My guess is you're going to have to relax your list of wants or increase your budget. If I were in your situation, I'd buy the vortex and start saving my allowance for a USO 1-8 down the road.

Tim,

Yes, I can get the reticle on my buddy's scope in focus, but even in focus, I can't read the numbers or see the hashmarks, just the dot/horseshoe. The reticle is just too small.

Your guess on the AR15 is pretty close. I didn't do a good job of keeping track of parts cost on that rifle, as I built it over time and picked up parts from guys that had bought and then not used them, so I saved a bit. I'll look into the Vortex 1-4's.

 

[DaveInGA]

The NIKON 308 version is worth a look. Nikon has good optics - depends on your vision. BDC reticles do not limit my visibility or ability to use the scope. Some would consider them a little busy - I do not. I'm sure others on here who are younger or with better eyesight would recommend higher end scopes.

That's good information. Busy doesn't bother me either. Anything I'm going to shoot that's not paper, I'm going to want to look at for a period of time anyway, to be sure it is what I mean to shoot. Saw good men get killed unnecessarily years ago from too quick trigger fingers.

 

[TimK]

So really the only way to get a larger reticle is to go to higher power. A reticle with 1 MOA hashes looks huge on a 25x, tiny on a 6x. If you assume a full value wind hold at 600 of roughly 6 MOA, you could speculate you might never hold more than 10 MOA with any faint hope of a hit.

At 6x, 10 MOA only accounts for about 1/15 of the entire field of view in the scope. Regardless of the reticle design, useful subtension values are going to appear very small on low powered scopes.

If you want a big reticle with hashes (in the useful range) that are easy to see, you're going to be forced to go to more magnification.

It sucks to get old.

 

[CRT2]

So really the only way to get a larger reticle is to go to higher power. A reticle with 1 MOA hashes looks huge on a 25x, tiny on a 6x. If you assume a full value wind hold at 600 of roughly 6 MOA, you could speculate you might never hold more than 10 MOA with any faint hope of a hit.

At 6x, 10 MOA only accounts for about 1/15 of the entire field of view in the scope. Regardless of the reticle design, useful subtension values are going to appear very small on low powered scopes.

If you want a big reticle with hashes (in the useful range) that are easy to see, you're going to be forced to go to more magnification.

It sucks to get old.

The alternate to getting old sucks even more!

 

[Crosshair]

Joe,

Kinda figured the FFP was a bit much on the lower end. Will a 1-6X scope provide all the magnification needed to get everything one can out of a 223/5.56 round? I'm thinking it is, but wanting to confirm.

I took a look through my buddy's scope I mentioned in my OP. Couldn't see the numbers at 6X, much less 1X. The 1x looked more like 1.1 to 1.3 to me and provided a pretty decent dot/upside down horseshoe to use for targeting at short range. If I could see that reticle, it would be a good one for .223/5.56 I am thinking.

I noticed Vortex did that. Wish I had the cash to buy one of those right now, but buying two scopes kinda puts me out of the range of spending what I want into spending about 1/3 of the cost of the rifle.

I like the looks of the Vortex PST 3.5-10 X 32 for the 308, but concerned about the FFP and my ability to see the reticle clearly at all magnification ranges.

Might take a look at this one for the .308; Leupold 3-9x40 VX-R Patrol 30mm Riflescope
It's got a really handy illumination system for the center dot, auto off and auto on when senses motion. Good glass and the SFP with illumination will be easy to see in all conditions. The lower power version would be good on the .223: Leupold 1.25-4x20 VX-R Patrol 30mm Riflescope
I really like the Burris Mtac for the money, the 1-4x24 I've used is great, they have a 1.5-6x42 that I have haven't looked through yet, but I like the reticle and illumination it shares with the 1-4x. Burris 1.5-6x40 MTAC 30mm Rifle Scope

 

[bman940]

Dave, Lots of good info and more detals for you to consider before making a final decision. I have used Nikon's M-308 4-16 Rapid Action Turret/BDC reticle. My choice for hunting is the BDC reticle. I can use Nikon's Spot On Ballistic Program to dial in my ammo choice to my scope and rifle. I have not shot past 500 yards with this scope but buddies have gone to 700 yards with excellent results. This scope also comes with a M-308 Mount which has 20 MOA built into it. The 4-16 magnification gives my 54 year old eye's the confidence to make longrange shots. Of course I spend time at the range dialing everything in so that I feel comfortable that I can make a 1 shot stop each time I pull the trigger. This year in Ks. I have the M-308 BDC mounted on my Rem. 700 AAC .308. Last year my longest shot was 476 yards on a clear no wind day that resulted in a full freezer.
Drop me a note if you have other question's about the Nikon M-308.

Nikon does have a PROSTAFF 5 3.5-14x50 scope that has an Illuminated Reticle (crosshair). You can order a custom turret for this scope dialing out to 800 yards if you are interested?

http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd363/bman940/M-308/m308wlmt-1.jpg